two_zero Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 In a nutshell, are AKs "user friendly"? Anyone can figure out how to use one, does not have a fire selector that comes in the way / gets accidental bumped all the time if yo got big hands (like with m4 for example, want to mod the selector away in my aeg), mags change easily. As for user friendliness in the real rifle, it needs no looking after and does not tend to jam (which can be a major hassle, especially for non shooters) Correct me if I am mistaken but... AK - designated selective fire assault rifle. M4 - short selective fire assault rifle, plastic but still weighted down from loads of attachments and 30-40rnd magazine. Based on a long lightweight selective fire assault rifle, kept light by using plastic and 20rnd magazine. Based upon a long SEMIAUTOMATIC SURVIVAL RIFLE (!!!) If you want to travel somewhere by water, would you go for a designated boat or something that started of like a car? I am not saying that because of this, AK-12 must be better than M4A1, rather, there must, or should be, a better alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cob Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 As this question goes i think its down to opinion, due to how comfortable and useable is is for each individual. I personally do not find the Kalashnikov platform ergonomic, as my hand feels awkward, and the fire selector seems to not go where i want it to (though this could be due yo gloves). And Ed I think the G36 mag release is more ergonomic than the AR as i can push it with my middle finger while i take out another mag. The AR i find is not ergonomic either as my hand on the grip doesn't feel comfortable with most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted April 3, 2013 Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 Well Ed, I would tend to agree with you, in a broad sense, but in actual fact I cannot operate the fire selector of a G36 at all easily with my thumb alone while holding the rifle ready to fire. I have to either take my hand away from the pistol grip a bit, or what I usually do, which is use my thumb to go from safe to semi, the edge of my hand where trigger finger knuckle joins palm to go from semi to full auto, my trigger finger middle knuckle to go back from full to semi, and the same knuckle or my thumb from semi to safe. I find it really easy to eject a mag, but that's probably because it's similar to an AK but even easier to do with your trigger finger. I'm not finding inserting a new mag as easy to do as with AK's though. Probably just a practice thing... My point though is that ergonomics is always going to be about designing for a target user and how user friendly something feels to people on the whole will depend on how wide the bell curve of averages was when measurements were decided upon. However ergonomics is about more than simply user friendliness or indeed speed of use; it must take into consideration such things as how educated does a user have to be to operate the thing and how easy is it for an untrained or badly trained person to break it? By both of those considerations, an AK beats AR's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tariq Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Speed of use is categorical to performance, not ergonomics Just having to move your hand to operate the AK selector is more ergonomic to having to jerk your wrist around to operate a AR/G36 fire selector. To analyse the gun, you have to break everything down into sub-sections and variable options that you would be doing on it. Then apply categorical analysis. (Which is why I hated my last project taking the entire tailgate section of an Audi A2 and re-designing it, including Full 2D and 3D drawings to BS8888 ;( ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted April 3, 2013 Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 Yeah Tariq, but surely how well or fast people on average can perform the same given task with one design, compared to another, is a factor in ergonomics? Oh yeah, and it's just occurred to me, concerning an earlier point in the discussion, the job an assault rifle does isn't "fire bullets" it is 'project the will of one person onto the behaviour of others'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tariq Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Nope, when it comes to design the speed of operation is a matter of performance. Fastest times could be set with really awkward controls. All ergonomics is, is the ease of use. Which feels more natural/comfortable on the body. Does it have as little strain on the user as possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted April 3, 2013 Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 OK, well as far as engineering jargon goes Tariq, I bow to your superior knowledge. However to a lay person ease of use equals speed of performance, so it's just semantics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted April 3, 2013 Author Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 The poll is slowing coming around Come on people, only 4 more to secure victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters M_P Posted April 3, 2013 Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 ONw thing it does have over the m4 is that its fire controls are more self explanatory. If you have a complete novice who never held a gun, I think they'd figure out what everything does quicker than if they had an m4. With the mention if ergonomics though, as said against today's guns it definitely falls short. Rifles like the ACR and scar at far more user friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted April 3, 2013 Author Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 You think the controls are more straight forward than an M4? The M4 has safe, semi and auto written on it with the most obvious switch ever! Though I do agree about that with the charging handle, bolt release, mag release and forward assist. I've had mates who picked up airsoft M16s I've had and stuff that haven't figured that out without a few seconds of looking the gun over, or me telling them. Though I've never had an airsoft AK as of yet to open up the possibility of the same thing happening with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickona Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Explain when: easy to use = good ergonomics... Yes an M4 is better by most peoples standards Ed, but that doesn't mean the AK is bad. By easy to use I mean simple as in you're not going to cock it up somehow, and by ergonomics ease of use. For instance an ACR is very ergonomic as it is ambidextrous and except for the cocking handle it can be entirely functioned without changing your grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 When I think ergonomics I think smooth, snug fitting and designed to fit the dimensions of the user, in which case we should all buy fully customised guns to suit the individual, but anyway back to the question... M4 (looks like its been built from mechano) - foregrip is horrible to hold - selector switch is in an awkward position (who has thumbs that long?) + Quick mag release AK (essentially a block of metal that shoots stuff) -mag release requires use of forward hand + personally the selector switch is reachable and does the job jut fine Real world M4 yes you can probably change the mags quicker than an AK but with an you can shove all those M4 mags you've been dropping when you reload straight into an AK and it works...the same cant be said the other way around. Airsoft world Seeing that you are going to want to look after your shiny mags and not drop them in the dirt the M4 mag release is going to require you to use your forward hand anyway to catch falling mag so it's a bit of a moot point. Furthermore, AK hi caps hold 600 rounds.... Who said anything about reloading an AK. As an unbiased observer I'd say its personal preference. Long live the glorious Motherland comrades! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted April 3, 2013 Author Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 A fair and justifiable contribution I am now winning Suck it George, you bitch lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam bussey Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 may I point out that some of us don't mind getting our mags dirty! I dropped 2 g36 pmags in a mud puddle after using the quick mag release on my SRC g36 for a quick reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam1992 Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 I read the thread and voted no, as I compared it to that of the M4. Ultimately, however, it is all down to personal preference, and moreso, experience. If you threw me an M4, or an AK, I would have to sit for 5 minutes and work everything out. They are both relatively self explanatory in that regards. On the flip side, if you threw me an SA80, blind folded with gloves on I could still perform all the drills in seconds. One thing you must remember, airsoft aside, is you are likely to be carrying the weight of that weapon system on your shoulders for days/weeks out in Theatre... I sure as hell would rather have the plastic M4 with boxes of 5.56 to support than the weight of an AK over a period of time. Personal opinion, anything Bullpup (Particularly SA80)- Reason: Weight is all in the rear, and the trigger finger remains on the trigger for all weapons drills, which above anything else is safer as the weapon "should" remain pointed at the target at all times. Once you start flicking your trigger hand here, there and everywhere, weapon discipline soon goes down the toilet and you end up shooting your mucker in the crotch. Ergonomics is more than just how quick you can change mags, its whats safest, and the most comfortable long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters M_P Posted April 3, 2013 Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 may I point out that some of us don't mind getting our mags dirty! I dropped 2 g36 pmags in a mud puddle after using the quick mag release on my SRC g36 for a quick reload. Having to clean out all the mud and rubbish out of your mags before re-using them isn't helpful. I'd rather not run dirty ammo through my guns. I find taking an AR off auto a pain but, I find it's not needed much ever anyway so doesn't matter. I personally believe an M4 to be more ergonomic due to its comfort of use. However it's justifiable for someone who is more comfortable witth an AK to say the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted April 3, 2013 Author Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 Who keeps making the vote go the wrong way?! D= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheriffHD Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Ok, well this is a debatable subject it seems. for me an ergonomic rifle is one that has the fewest working parts, the less chance of going wrong, and the easiest to use out the box. AK - world known as a reliable rifle, Simple action, few moving parts to fuck about with. M4 - a brilliant rifle, very modular design, and designed for shooter efficiency, but lots of parts that need to be maintained for it to work. Now, the M4 is the better rifle for combat, can be suited to an individuals needs at a moments notice, but, there is alot more that can go wrong with it. The Ak, has less parts to go wrong, but they are not the most accurate weapon on the market.Now as you asked you what rifle was the most ergonomic, it depends on the use you intend for the rifle.If you are to supply an army of highly trained men, with a section of trained armorers to maintain the weapons, the M4 is the more ergonomic choice. If you are looking to supply a army of untrained/little trained men as a militia force, that has no trained armorers to maintain the weapons, than the AK is the most ergonomic rifle.You are asking a question that isnt absolute, but rather a question that is subject to intention of use.So, yes.The AK is an ergonomic rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzer306 Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Its 50/50 for me as I own both AK and M4. Both have nice ergonomic pistol grips which fit nice into my hands. One has left handed selector other has right handed either way I don't have to remove my hand from pistol grip it's about improvise and adapt. Both have a RIS so fore grip position no prob they both have sight rails still no prob. As for mag change either weapon you got to hold it with one hand and change mag with the other. Both have front and rear sling mounts. So if this just a poll about fire selector being on right side of an AK then that's depends on if your right or left handed, same to be said for M4 G36 is best for right and left handed people as fire and charging handle can easily be use by both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rayzor_nippler Posted April 3, 2013 Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 i would have to say m4 due to it being a newer design evey thing is with in reaching distance the bolt does'nt need racking when a new mag is put in just a button push , the mag's are a square that fits a square mag well (does not need hooking in like the ak does) but just my opinion does not mean i'm right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Finius Posted April 3, 2013 Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 Well this has worked out exactly how Ed wanted it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_zero Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 The poll is slowing coming around Come on people, only 4 more to secure victory. wouldn't say the current poll result proves anyone to be a moron:) But I guess as with anything when it comes to M4 and AK, it's down to opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted April 3, 2013 Author Supporters Share Posted April 3, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheriffHD Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 its down to what you need from a rifle. If you wanted to kill a target at range, you would use a .338 or a .50 and not a .22. a rifle that is ergonomic is a rifle that makes the user the most efficient. So asking what rifle is the most efficient, you first need to say what is it you are trying to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_zero Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 I'd go for a precision .22 magnum any day over a diy .50^^ but yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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