Double Eagle or spend more?

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I'm in the happy position to have a decent budget for my first primary AEG, but equally I'm a miser so don't see the point in spending money needlessly.  For arguments sake lets assume I've got £350 for an AEG, but it's not really a hard and fast figure.

 

I've currently got a DE M906C in my BBGuns4Less basket, hoping they'll prompt me with a discount code to complete the purchase.  

 

Whilst I wait, I've gone through my huge list of alternatives and the ones that stand out are the Specna Edge 2.0 series.  I realise they had some QC issues in the early days with the Orion gearbox and the Asters, but I'd hope that they've resolved that now.  But at around £300ish for most models in the range, what am I getting over the DE?  Do they shoot any further or straighter?  More reliable?  Better fit and finish?

 

This isn't a subtle shit-post on Specna, I'm genuinely willing to spend the extra if it will get me something better, but not sure what is in it for me other than the Gate Aster having a few more features over the Falcon and there being a few more options in the Specna range (I quite like the 416s).

 

Anecdotally I've seen that the DE seem to suffer from weak springs and the hop-up lever won't take an aftermarket nub so will likely need changing at some point in the future, plus they drain batteries if left connected, but that doesn't really bother me since I never leave a LiPo connected in my RC cars, they all go straight back in the BatSafe overnight.  None of these seem like fundamental issues to me.

 

Thanks all

 

[EDcase]

Perhaps someone will comment who actually has experience with both.

In the meantime I can say I own one of the older Specna Edge 2 models and I like it a lot.

 

Unless someone can point out a specific flaw or benefit of either one I think it will come down to your choice in the looks.

Also check the material of the body in case that's important to you. Metal or polymer/plastic.

 

Maybe look for disassembly videos to see inside the gearbox and compare.

 

Good luck

[RostokMcSpoons]

2 hours ago, Gunboat Diplomat said:

Anecdotally I've seen that the DE seem to suffer from weak springs and the hop-up lever won't take an aftermarket nub so will likely need changing at some point in the future, plus they drain batteries if left connected, but that doesn't really bother me since I never leave a LiPo connected in my RC cars, they all go straight back in the BatSafe overnight.  None of these seem like fundamental issues to me.

 

Weak springs: Yes, the stock one is a linear cheap thing that loses it's oomph fairly quickly - but it'll last a good few skirmishes.  Changing the spring is very simple.

Hop-up lever: The Omega nub does fit into the arm on my 906C, and I ran it perfectly successfully for a while.  When I took it apart and put it back together I've got a weird situation where the gun started over-hoppping - basically with the Omega nub in place it seems it was applying more force on the contact patch than before.  And it still does with the stock one in place too - I think this problem is down to me!  I'm going to see if I can resolve this - a ZCI hop unit will probably get ordered when I'm gainfully employed again.   But the gun is still shooting beautifully at the moment, so no rush.

Chrono's at 330fps with 0.20's with hop set for 0.28's (yeah a stupid combination I know, but I just had a mag of 0.20's to hand when I was chrono'ing other stuff, and just did it quickly out of curiosity)

 

Battery: "Not gonna lie" - the Falcon unit draining the battery has been a PITA as it killed a couple of batteries before I realised the gun was doing this.  And another since, because I was forgetful.
 

Luke at Negative Airsoft hated the Specna's Orion gearbox, not because of the design per se, but shitty QC.
 

Unless you hear positive evidence they're better QC'd now, I wouldn't risk it.

 

They make a lot of very nice looking guns though.    The 416 design looks very cool (glances admiringly at my VFC '416), but all the chunky RIS rails do add quite a bit of weight.  A polymer or metal hand-guard with M-LOK slots is noticeably lighter.  Just something to be aware of.

 

[Lozart]

16 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

 

Weak springs: Yes, the stock one is a linear cheap thing that loses it's oomph fairly quickly - but it'll last a good few skirmishes.  Changing the spring is very simple.

Hop-up lever: The Omega nub does fit into the arm on my 906C, and I ran it perfectly successfully for a while.  When I took it apart and put it back together I've got a weird situation where the gun started over-hoppping - basically with the Omega nub in place it seems it was applying more force on the contact patch than before.  And it still does with the stock one in place too - I think this problem is down to me!  I'm going to see if I can resolve this - a ZCI hop unit will probably get ordered when I'm gainfully employed again.   But the gun is still shooting beautifully at the moment, so no rush.

Chrono's at 330fps with 0.20's with hop set for 0.28's (yeah a stupid combination I know, but I just had a mag of 0.20's to hand when I was chrono'ing other stuff, and just did it quickly out of curiosity)

 

Battery: "Not gonna lie" - the Falcon unit draining the battery has been a PITA as it killed a couple of batteries before I realised the gun was doing this.  And another since, because I was forgetful.
 

Luke at Negative Airsoft hated the Specna's Orion gearbox, not because of the design per se, but shitty QC.
 

Unless you hear positive evidence they're better QC'd now, I wouldn't risk it.

 

They make a lot of very nice looking guns though.    The 416 design looks very cool (glances admiringly at my VFC '416), but all the chunky RIS rails do add quite a bit of weight.  A polymer or metal hand-guard with M-LOK slots is noticeably lighter.  Just something to be aware of.

 

 

 

Specna listened to the criticism and fixed a lot of the problems with the Orion gearbox.

 

[Fatboy40]

4 hours ago, Gunboat Diplomat said:

Whilst I wait, I've gone through my huge list of alternatives and the ones that stand out are the Specna Edge 2.0 series.  I realise they had some QC issues in the early days with the Orion gearbox and the Asters, but I'd hope that they've resolved that now.  But at around £300ish for most models in the range, what am I getting over the DE?  Do they shoot any further or straighter?  More reliable?  Better fit and finish?

 

This isn't a subtle shit-post on Specna, I'm genuinely willing to spend the extra if it will get me something better, but not sure what is in it for me other than the Gate Aster having a few more features over the Falcon and there being a few more options in the Specna range (I quite like the 416s).

 

I'd heard that the GATE Aster problems were more to do with them just being slapped into the gearbox, tested working to a very basic level and that was it, no effort to tune them in any way (plus they didn't ship with a USB Link so a customer couldn't really do any good tweaks without buying one).

 

I suppose the difference between the DE M906C and your £300 is around £120, so what do you potentially gain from this? Things I can think of...

 

# Double Eagle customer service is really zero, you're relying on the the reseller you buy it from. You can get a response out of them to questions if you really pester them, but they're not interested as their margins are so low. Specna will be better than this.

 

# The Falcon controller is good for what it is, a very cheap clone of a GATE Titan, but this can show in certain ways. For example there are no firmware updates so in theory it will never work with a brushless motor if you one day wish to have one, it does drain batteries, the low voltage cut off is so low to be non-existent, it can be fried by heavy full auto use on an 11.1v battery. The GATE Aster absolutely is better, can be updated with GATE Control Station, supports brushless motors, has pre-cocking, has low voltage cut off that you can adjust, and can better handle large current draws.

 

# The quality of the rifle in general will be better than a Double Eagle, materials used etc., but not massively better.

 

... so personally I'd say that the £120 is buying you some more reliability, customisation through the GATE Aster, and hopefully a rifle platform that will last longer overall.

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Hop-up lever:... a ZCI hop unit will probably get ordered when I'm gainfully employed again. 

 

If "money's too tight to mention" then maybe this is not the best of posts from me but The Maxx Model M4A-PRO fits perfectly in the M906C and I'll put my neck on the line by saying that it's substantially better than the ZCI plastic (it should be for what it costs!).

 

Couple with the Maxx 21.25mm nozzle you will get small increase in FPS, potentially enough to drop down a spring strength which is a good thing for stressing everything less. Also the solid metal concave nub with an ML bucking is just so good, lots of hop applied with little pressure, so less power lost from the BB.

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Thanks all for the tips.  Shopping around brings the price of a couple of Edge 2.0 variants to within a £100 of the Double Eagle.  From Negative Airsoft's follow up video and some general forum/reddit posts it sounds like Specna dealt with their QC issues, so current examples should be no worse than any other mass produced Chinese toy.

 

Still very much on the fence at this point, will see if I get a discount incentive from BBGuns4Less, that might sway me.  

[RostokMcSpoons]

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/specna-arms-sa-e12-edge-2-0-tm?pv=15527

 

This looks like a good alternative to the DE M906C at a decent price

 

Or indeed the 416-a-like is at £305...

 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/specna-arms-sa-h21-edge-2-0-airsoft-aeg-carbine-rifle

Edited July 5, 2023 by RostokMcSpoons

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Well after much fannying about, I've ordered the Double Eagle.  Thanks all for the advice and feedback, after copious consumption of YouTube opinions and reddit posts I've concluded the difference in price is better spent on more days out for me and the boy.

 

What size LiPo do I need for the M906C?  Am I best of with a crane or stick size pack?  I'll likely be ordering from Vapextech as they seem to be the cheapest option.  I've got plenty of 2S LiPos from my RC cars, but I doubt they will fit in the stock.  Are they fussy with mags or will any M4 style fit?

 

On another note I've also ordered a Cyma G36 the boy has been lusting after.  Fortunately that comes with a battery, but I'll be needing to find some more AR36 mags for him. 

[Egon_247]

There's a thread in here that throws much love at the de m90x range. 

I have the 904g and I love it to death.

The ONLY issue I've had is the MOSFET refused to play nice with my 11.1v but bunging a 7.4v in it made it electronically happy again.😁

[Gunboat Diplomat]

10 minutes ago, Egon_247 said:

There's a thread in here that throws much love at the de m90x range. 

I have the 904g and I love it to death.

The ONLY issue I've had is the MOSFET refused to play nice with my 11.1v but bunging a 7.4v in it made it electronically happy again.😁

 

Yes it was all the Double Eagle shilling  positive feedback that put me on to them in the first place and despite the price differential it seems like they don't really fall short of more expensive offerings.  

 

I was looking at this 3S pack as I think it will fit in the M906C: https://www.vapextech.co.uk/airsoft-11-1v-1300mah-30c-lipo-battery-with-case-lp303-vapextech

 

I'm hoping the Falcon will be happy with it as long as I keep full auto to short bursts.

[The_Lord_Poncho]

I'm rather happy with their SMG flavour (M917) - albeit i changed the spring (just to bring the power up a little), and put in a SHS hi torque motor to make the trigger response a little snappier (the stock motors are a little on the weak side). I also had a weirdly sporadic fluctuation on the amount of hop it applied between shots, so changed the hop unit for a cheap ZCI plastic one. All good now though, first two changes didn't really need to be done, and the hop problem was just me being unlucky, no one else seems to have a drama with the stock hop units as far as I can tell.

4 minutes ago, Gunboat Diplomat said:

 

I was looking at this 3S pack as I think it will fit in the M906C: https://www.vapextech.co.uk/airsoft-11-1v-1300mah-30c-lipo-battery-with-case-lp303-vapextech

 

I'm hoping the Falcon will be happy with it as long as I keep full auto to short bursts.

 

Do you really need to 'risk it' with an 11.1 battery? A 2s with a reasonable C rating would be more than adequate, and if you were inclined for a greater trigger response etc, you could always later pop in a higher torque motor (or even buy an 11.1 as your second spare battery if you feel the need). I'm sure there are lots of people who have happily run them on 11.1, but I've never seen the need for any of my RIFs, and take a little comfort that I'm putting less strain on the electronics and mechanicals as a result.

[RostokMcSpoons]

Congrats on your purchase! 

 

: Checks bank balance to see if commission has landed:

 

I played with a 7.4v for a good while but eventually succumbed to temptation, enjoyed the higher RoF ever since.  I'd agree it's not a necessity though.

 

I changed the stock for a PTS EPS which takes crane batteries, as much so the battery chargers are less fiddly as for physical capacity (... You might want to buy or make a short extension lead in the short term, but it depends on the particular battery you end up with)

 

I had no problems with the fire control unit, but the motor does get warm thanks the active braking kicking in, especially during semi spamming.  I don't go for prolonged full auto, short bursts (but plenty of them!) Is my style.

 

I run with Lonex flash mags, as they're the nicest high caps I've had. They aren't perfect, they sometimes unwind on insertion.  Some careful skimming in the mag well would probably fix it, never quite got around to it... Maybe I'll do that tomorrow.  Most of the other M4 mags I have are fine, just a Tippmann mid cap (polymer) and a Battleaxe high cap won't fit.

 

As for the g36, you may not be aware but you can buy a replacement mag well that means it'll take M4 mags. You could then both share from a pool of m4 mags, it would make logistics a bit easier!

Edited July 6, 2023 by RostokMcSpoons

[Egon_247]

Yeah, second that about the extension piece. The 904g is v short in the battery box area. Nice person on here printed me an add on piece. Much betterer. 😁

Oh and the suppressor went as it was curving my shots too 😱

[Gunboat Diplomat]

1 hour ago, The_Lord_Poncho said:

Do you really need to 'risk it' with an 11.1 battery? A 2s with a reasonable C rating would be more than adequate, and if you were inclined for a greater trigger response etc, you could always later pop in a higher torque motor (or even buy an 11.1 as your second spare battery if you feel the need). I'm sure there are lots of people who have happily run them on 11.1, but I've never seen the need for any of my RIFs, and take a little comfort that I'm putting less strain on the electronics and mechanicals as a result.

 

Fair point, maybe I'll stick with 2S to begin with, if I feel the need for higher RoF later down the line I can always test with one of the 3S packs from my FPV quad and see how toasty the motor gets.  That said the brushed 550 motor in my 1/14 scale RC car regularly reaches temperatures that cause localised climate change, yet it keeps coming back for more.

 

I notice a lot of airsoft AEG tech is starting to borrow from the RC world.  MosFet/ETUs etc are nothing more than the ESCs we've been running in RC gear for what feels like a decade now and brushless motors still seem to be a rarity in AEGs despite being ubiquitous in most mid-range RC.

 

57 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Congrats on your purchase! 

 

: Checks bank balance to see if commission has landed:

 

I played with a 7.4v for a good while but eventually succumbed to temptation, enjoyed the higher RoF ever since.  I'd agree it's not a necessity though.

 

I changed the stock for a PTS EPS which takes crane batteries, as much so the battery chargers are less fiddly as for physical capacity (... You might want to buy or make a short extension lead in the short term, but it depends on the particular battery you end up with)

 

I had no problems with the fire control unit, but the motor does get warm thanks the active braking kicking in, especially during semi spamming.  I don't go for prolonged full auto, short bursts (but plenty of them!) Is my style.

 

I run with Lonex flash mags, as they're the nicest high caps I've had. They aren't perfect, they sometimes unwind on insertion.  Some careful skimming in the mag well would probably fix it, never quite got around to it... Maybe I'll do that tomorrow.  Most of the other M4 mags I have are fine, just a Tippmann mid cap (polymer) and a Battleaxe high cap won't fit.

 

As for the g36, you may not be aware but you can buy a replacement mag well that means it'll take M4 mags. You could then both share from a pool of m4 mags, it would make logistics a bit easier!

 

Cheers, good tips, I'll have a search for an M4 adaptor for the G36, though the boy quite likes the idea of the G36 mags native ability to stack together. 

 

I think DE's head of global marketing has a RostockMcSpoons portrait that takes pride of place in his office.

[RostokMcSpoons]

I have thoughts about the stacking mags thang...  feel free to totally ignore, but here we go...

 

I have a G36 and a SIG with stackable mags.  And in the past I've also used the clips to hold two AK mags together. They're pretty cool as an idea, but here's my take:

 

1) If you're using high caps, then you have a double set of Tactical Maraccas bouncing around in front of you.  If you 'shock absorb' your gun as you move then arguably this is quieter than having the second mag (which should be absolutely brimmed to minimize noise) in your belt or chest rig... but I suspect much of the time it'll be the gun that's moving the most when you want to be quiet.  Depends how 'ninja' you are as to whether this is any concern really!

 

2) A second (and maybe even third) mag on your gun adds weight.  If you're lucky the mags don't weigh toooooo much, but add in the ~300 BBs and it's more you're carrying with your arms than letting the rig do the work.  I've probably just had a flash-back to the AK there, because the naked gun was light, and the extra mag therefore made a really noticeable difference.

 

3) If you're thinking "Ah, you silly sausage, I always choose mid-caps"  then you end up needing to store extra mags in a belt or chest rig, and those connecting lugs are a bit annoying as they can make getting the mags in and out of pouches rather tiresome.

 

I have currently have just two high-caps for my G36, so for the moment I'll put up with the rattle and I'll use them connected together.  They're quite light mags, and brand new so I don't want to start attacking them with a hacksaw
But for my SIG where I currently have 4 mags, those lugs are off so I can get them in and out of my polymer pouches as easily as possible.
 

Edited July 6, 2023 by RostokMcSpoons

[gavinkempsell]

I bought wide Sig pouches specially to accomodate the lugs, still not used them tho as I've used my Scar in every game so far.

[RostokMcSpoons]

1 minute ago, gavinkempsell said:

I bought wide Sig pouches specially to accomodate the lugs, still not used them tho as I've used my Scar in every game so far.

 

I didn't know special SIG pouches were a thing, but of course that makes sense.   I specifically sought out polymer pouches that could hold anything (AUG / M14 / M4 etc) but the lugs make such a difference to the shape of the mag that I don't much like 'em.

[gavinkempsell]

46 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I didn't know special SIG pouches were a thing

Neither did I until I saw some for sale in the classifieds on here, I usually take a Scar-L & a G36C but haven't used the G36 yet, mainly coz I'd over filled the midcaps I got for the G36 so it wouldn't even crono & I'd taken a couple of SA80's on my last day playing.

[Leo Greer]

I'd say go for the DE--the pricing is a big deal. That DE will allow you to be competitive, skirmish away, and figure out how serious you are about the sport, and find out if it would've even been worth it for you to pay more money. I mean, heck, I have AEGs that cost $1000+ to build in my closet, and I'll still take out and play with something that cost $200 or $170. Just because it's expensive doesn't make it the right choice for you, or vice versa for that matter.

[Gunboat Diplomat]

8 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I have thoughts about the stacking mags thang...  feel free to totally ignore, but here we go...

 

I have a G36 and a SIG with stackable mags.  And in the past I've also used the clips to hold two AK mags together. They're pretty cool as an idea, but here's my take:

 

1) If you're using high caps, then you have a double set of Tactical Maraccas bouncing around in front of you.  If you 'shock absorb' your gun as you move then arguably this is quieter than having the second mag (which should be absolutely brimmed to minimize noise) in your belt or chest rig... but I suspect much of the time it'll be the gun that's moving the most when you want to be quiet.  Depends how 'ninja' you are as to whether this is any concern really!

 

2) A second (and maybe even third) mag on your gun adds weight.  If you're lucky the mags don't weigh toooooo much, but add in the ~300 BBs and it's more you're carrying with your arms than letting the rig do the work.  I've probably just had a flash-back to the AK there, because the naked gun was light, and the extra mag therefore made a really noticeable difference.

 

3) If you're thinking "Ah, you silly sausage, I always choose mid-caps"  then you end up needing to store extra mags in a belt or chest rig, and those connecting lugs are a bit annoying as they can make getting the mags in and out of pouches rather tiresome.

 

I have currently have just two high-caps for my G36, so for the moment I'll put up with the rattle and I'll use them connected together.  They're quite light mags, and brand new so I don't want to start attacking them with a hacksaw
But for my SIG where I currently have 4 mags, those lugs are off so I can get them in and out of my polymer pouches as easily as possible.
 

Hmm… interesting, cheers.  Will certainly be hicaps as he says ‘who wants to reload!?’  
 

I’m yet to see a situation where a Spec Ops game is quiet enough to need the stealth of silent mags, but I can see it being relevant if the indoor CQB site opens. 
 

He doesn’t have a rig yet so I expect he’ll just put a spare mag in his leg pocket if the stacked weight is too heavy on the gun. 

 

28 minutes ago, Leo Greer said:

I'd say go for the DE--the pricing is a big deal. That DE will allow you to be competitive, skirmish away, and figure out how serious you are about the sport, and find out if it would've even been worth it for you to pay more money. I mean, heck, I have AEGs that cost $1000+ to build in my closet, and I'll still take out and play with something that cost $200 or $170. Just because it's expensive doesn't make it the right choice for you, or vice versa for that matter.

And indeed I did a few posts earlier, hopefully being delivered today/tomorrow. 
 

Your rationale did play a part in my decision though, the DE won’t hold me back and I’m  invariably going to be tempted by even more exotic toys in future so may as well save the extra outlay for now. 

[RostokMcSpoons]

19 minutes ago, Gunboat Diplomat said:

I’m yet to see a situation where a Spec Ops game is quiet enough to need the stealth of silent mags, but I can see it being relevant if the indoor CQB site opens. 

 

Yes actually a very good point. I think Luke (in whom we trust) at Negative Airsoft made the same point in one of his videos that we make much more noise crashing around than any rattling high caps... The enemy won't hear that.

 

The Maraca Effect (c)(tm) is probably more about embarrassing yourself to your teammates  🥴

[Gunboat Diplomat]

5 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

embarrassing yourself to your teammates

 

I don't need noisy mags to accomplish that feat.  Running in the wrong direction with the flag in CTF, getting lost in the woods trying to find respawn, walking into the enemy respawn, dumping half a mag into a bush thinking its a ghillie suit... I think I'm well past the point of saving my credibility.

 

Whilst the boy is set on hicaps, I'm considering some midcaps not so much for the silence but just for the fun/pseudo-realism of mid game reloads.  Landwarrior have a set of 5 midcap M4 mags for £20 which seems like a good deal if they work.

[Shamal]

6 minutes ago, Gunboat Diplomat said:

 

I don't need noisy mags to accomplish that feat.  Running in the wrong direction with the flag in CTF, getting lost in the woods trying to find respawn, walking into the enemy respawn, dumping half a mag into a bush thinking its a ghillie suit... I think I'm well past the point of saving my credibility.

Been there,done that.

In fact I'm still trying to get out of a game that ended months ago 😂😂

 

Regards 

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

12 minutes ago, Gunboat Diplomat said:

 

Whilst the boy is set on hicaps, I'm considering some midcaps not so much for the silence but just for the fun/pseudo-realism of mid game reloads.  Landwarrior have a set of 5 midcap M4 mags for £20 which seems like a good deal if they work.

 

Yup there's a lot to be said for that.  I really enjoy my GBBR in part thanks to the reloads. 

 

On the flip side though, I've managed to get through most of my 4 high caps (360rd capacity) between bomb-ups plenty of times before, trigger-happy guy that I am 😋.  Only last Sunday I ended up having to go single shot to conserve the ammo in the last mag.

[Speedbird_666]

43 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Negative Airsoft made the same point in one of his videos that we make much more noise crashing around than any rattling high caps... The enemy won't hear that.

 

I can never quite understand why players bog themselves down with a ton of useless kit in CQB (i.e. plate carriers with hydration carriers etc) - you just end up making loads of noise and smacking into things. 

 

Now with a just simple micro chest rig, a handful of midcaps and your gun stripped of all unnecessary accessories - you can be very, very sneaky in CQB. UCAP Valiant (Dorchester Prison) lends itself brilliantly to this - epic flanks can be done if you maintain noise discipline and you can easily find yourself behind the opposing team who are completely unaware. Good times.