Useful Legal Info

[EDcase]

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by EDcase

[RostokMcSpoons]

Yup spotted this a couple of days ago and was going to post it myself.  But I watched it yesterday and wasn't so sure about it.

 

I presume there's going to be a part 2 to this because it was all really preamble, no real meat to it, and actually just acted as a lead-up to the advert for the combat training.

 

I like the black belt lawyer videos so expect he will get to the useful stuff eventually...  I'm hoping he'll cover the grey area that is shooting in your own garden, for instance, where we aren't covered by 3rd party insurance, and might attract the wrong sort of attention from the neighbours.

(I might add a comment to the video to that effect)

[Rogerborg]

Thanks, and credit to him for covering it, even as a sales pitch[*].  Nothing wrong there, he's essentially reading out the same statues and regulations as we have in the legal section here. However, not mentioning S19 (simple public possession of a RIF or IF, requiring the active defence of a reasonable excuse) is a whopping big omission.

 

And I'd really have liked to heard some case law - that's what we're lacking.  Still, if it brings a few more pedants into the hobby, I'll welcome them.  

 

[*] Hearing that "his mate was in the SBS" doesn't alter my impression that this chap's self image may be a few rungs above strict mundane reality.

[Jaylordofwaargh]

Wouldn't know if video was any good, lost me with the self sales pitch.....

I'll just trust the copy paste from legislation that you good folks do already....

[TacticalWaifu]

On 01/06/2023 at 17:51, Jaylordofwaargh said:

I'll just trust the copy paste from legislation that you good folks do already....

 

Always good to trust the legislation from the original source, rather than some random's interpretation without backup

 

Interpretation is often a matter for the courts though -- for example, Section 38 of the VCRA deals with the definition of "imitation firearms" (read: certain bright colours, as stated here" vs. "realistic imitation firearms" (read: black, tan, etc.) -- as a RIF requires a legal defence like UKARA, but a "two-toned" IF does not.

 

Section 6(3)(b) of Schedule 2 of the VCRA says, "the imitation is to be regarded as distinguishable if its size, shape or principal colour is unrealistic for a real firearm." [source], "principal colour" on body coverage % is commonly assigned to be a minimum of 51% of the body.

 

Despite this, the two-toning service offered by a substantial number of retailers often only covers a couple of parts for rifles, and often the slide only for pistols -- so while it's nowhere near being principally the bright colour, the sellers could attempt to argue it's sufficient to distinguish it from a RIF -- while not necessarily following the letter of the law, it is following the spirit.

Generally provided you aren't an idiot, the rules are pretty simple -- but legislation being legislation, it can seem needlessly complex and daunting 😊

[Tommikka]

On 01/06/2023 at 17:51, Jaylordofwaargh said:

Wouldn't know if video was any good, lost me with the self sales pitch.....

I'll just trust the copy paste from legislation that you good folks do already....

 

3 hours ago, TacticalWaifu said:

 

Always good to trust the legislation from the original source, rather than some random's interpretation without backup

 

Interpretation is often a matter for the courts though -- for example, Section 38 of the VCRA deals with the definition of "imitation firearms" (read: certain bright colours, as stated here" vs. "realistic imitation firearms" (read: black, tan, etc.) -- as a RIF requires a legal defence like UKARA, but a "two-toned" IF does not.

 

Section 6(3)(b) of Schedule 2 of the VCRA says, "the imitation is to be regarded as distinguishable if its size, shape or principal colour is unrealistic for a real firearm." [source], "principal colour" on body coverage % is commonly assigned to be a minimum of 51% of the body.

 

Despite this, the two-toning service offered by a substantial number of retailers often only covers a couple of parts for rifles, and often the slide only for pistols -- so while it's nowhere near being principally the bright colour, the sellers could attempt to argue it's sufficient to distinguish it from a RIF -- while not necessarily following the letter of the law, it is following the spirit.

Generally provided you aren't an idiot, the rules are pretty simple -- but legislation being legislation, it can seem needlessly complex and daunting 😊

Everything that you read or are told regarding legislation is subject to interpretation, even reading the words directly from legislation is subject to your personal interpretation …. And you need more than just the legislation itself….. if you read the VCRA itself there is no defence that permits airsofters to have RIFs, but there is a provision for additional defences via statutory instrument and one such document exists for airsoft skirmishing

 

On a fine point myself and @Rogerborghave agreed to disagree for some considerable time, but a case has occurred, the results of the case match his interpretation therefore we can still happily disagree on our personal interpretations but the case disagrees with me.   My interpretation is now wrong - unless a subsequent case occurs and the lawyers can prove that the circusmtances differ sufficiently to tip the interpretation over

 

The black belt barrister is a barrister, and whenever he interprets the law he makes the statement that he is making a general interpretation on the basis of his opinion and not giving legal advice.  If you employ him and provide your circumstances then he will give legal advice (unless he does not feel

able to)

 

In my subject area of paintball I do own guns that would meet the definition of RIF, and I have both bought & modified them.  Back in the day that the VCRA was a bill the airsoft industry got involved and the UKARA was born, paintballs UKPSF were well established as a body dealing with the Home Office.  Justifying paintball RIFs were not something worth fighting for and the Home Office, police etc were not interested.  Paintball never gained a defence, but it was put in writing that air / co2 propelled paintball guns were air weapons, which meant they were firearms, but with energy below 12 ft lbs (or 6 ft lbs where applicable) they were low power air weapons which provided they were used with frangible paintballs their ‘lethality’ is fine for shooting each other.  As air weapons are firearms then they aren’t imitation firearms, and therefore can neither be an IF or a RIF.

(But as mentioned above where I and Rogerborg agree to disagree - case law now shows that a firearm can now be interpreted as an imitation firearm)

All fine and nothing to worry about ….. except for a little hiccup when a company received a study visit from the Association of Chief Police officers  - the company were told it’s fine, but word for word interpretation might cover  black paintball guns as RIFs, and there is no defence for paintball. The study group gave feedback that they were not going to act upon that interpretation, but recommended the company should ‘do something about it’ like VCRA.  So they did, and produced a short lived membership scheme.  No action ever occurred 

I used my UKPSF membership as part of an import declaration - I declared that the package was not a RIF, but here are my UKPSF details and it’s my intent to use the contents at scenario paintball events - who knows if they accepted my ‘defence’ or just stopped at ‘no it’s not a RIF’?

 

Now to the last few years. People are trying to buy ‘self defence’ / ‘home defence’ versions of paintball guns, which are over powered and get used with non frangible balls. Some are flagged by retailers / importers and sales are refused, others try for direct import and are found by customs and/or incidents occur and the police find them on the street, in beside drawers etc loaded and aired up etc (some threads on here may reflect some of these occurrences)

 

The UKPSF get contacted by the Home Office/ police / border force & customs 
They remain content with paintball but are not happy with these items - the UKPSF have a rethink on relying on the old Home Office interpretation on the frangible / lethality clause and commissions legal review - this recommends not relying on the clause but does come up with arguments that the ‘intention’ of the law could go for UKPSF membership and ‘skirmishing’ albeit that the special instrument covers airsoft skirmishing 

Things are afoot in the UK paintball industry and sphincters twitch -  a case would give us the answer, but may or may not give the answer we want 

 

 

The non compliance of two tone colours fits in ( or just the amount of cover but also the colours themselves which should be bright) - but they’ve not followed the spirit of the law but just paid it lip service (whereas JustCos is just a made up situation with no intent to comply - the comicon that tied to the JustCos insurance does not permit RIFs with cosplay)

Again a case would answer, but no one wants to be the test case

 

As a general rule in life always treat advice / information on its own merits 

 

The legal areas on this forum have good information, but they are the opinion/interpretation of the poster at that time 

Direct legislation quotes are just that - direct quotes, which still needs interpretation against circumstances and also is very likely to miss out the other sections, other pieces of legislation and any case law

 

Don’t be a dick, don’t get caught being a dick and don’t be a test case 

[Jaylordofwaargh]

On 07/06/2023 at 23:22, Tommikka said:

Don’t be a dick, don’t get caught being a dick and don’t be a test case 

Words and thoughts to live by.

 

[Dan Robinson]

"Don't be a dick" or "Don't be a genital" are a set of universal rules that trump most religions and philosophies for how to deal with life the universe and everything.

 

Its a shame our political classes and traffic wardens haven't been introduced to them.

[RostokMcSpoons]

15 minutes ago, Dan Robinson said:

"Don't be a dick" or "Don't be a genital" are a set of universal rules that trump most religions and philosophies for how to deal with life the universe and everything.

 

Its a shame our political classes and traffic wardens haven't been introduced to them.

 

Watching the news tonight, where Donald Trump has just been charged with 37 counts of the same thing (but worse) for which he vilified Hilary Clinton with the "lock her up" chants...

 

And then Boris Johnson giving Rees-Mogg and Priti Patel knighthood and Damehood....

 

... has made me irrationally angry tonight.

 

Fuck the lot of them.  

Edited June 9, 2023 by RostokMcSpoons

[Dan Robinson]

This is why I do not have a TV license and why I'm leaving the country.   😁