Thoughts on ASG Infinity 22k motor vs Warhead Standard

[infyrana]

Looking at a potential new motor for an LCT AK and trying to decide between the two.  It's been kindly suggested to use something like the ASG Infinity 22k motor to pair with a set of 13:1 gears and a 7.4v Lipo with Titan Gate installed.  But I've also wanted to try out the Warhead brushless motors (something airsoft is still a bit behind with), unsure if the Standard would be comparible.

 

Ideally I'm looking for something that will last use and abuse in semi / full auto, something that's snappy to the touch (hence the Titan Gate), but does not need to be a speed demon with RoF.

 

Any helpful advice from experience with these would be much appreciated thank you.

[Adolf Hamster]

i'd have to say the warhead standard.

 

it's somewhat comparable to the asg 30k however the pickup speed for semi-auto is noticeably better. i was getting ~18rps in auto on a 12:1 short-stroked build on 7.4 whilst retaining very snappy response in semi.

 

the contacts are a bit more delicate going onto a pcb, and installation does need an extra bit of care, however once it's in there then there's no dirt from brushes as a bonus.

[Hatchet]

This video on it is very interesting, particularly the amp draw and energy efficiency parts. Spoliers, 5800 shots out of an 1000mah battery on the Warhead, vs 1000 on a Lonex A1...

 

[strykerles]

been looking a the brushless motors myself it's just the price thats off putting 😂

[DerDer]

18 minutes ago, Hatchet said:

This video on it is very interesting, particularly the amp draw and energy efficiency parts. Spoliers, 5800 shots out of an 1000mah battery on the Warhead, vs 1000 on a Lonex A1...

 

That's a very interesting point. Was doing a bit of testing with my Galil this weekend. The Tienly motor I had used in it wasn't the most energy efficient.  Worked very nicely in an AKM with a beefy 7.4v brick lipo. In contrast the stick lipos were being drained a lot more rapidly.  Might have to try a Warhead for the next folding stock Aeg I get. 

 

The guys in the video are very thorough, remember one of their vids on a VFC GBBR was excellent. 

[Lozart]

On 29/10/2021 at 13:02, Adolf Hamster said:

i'd have to say the warhead standard.

 

it's somewhat comparable to the asg 30k however the pickup speed for semi-auto is noticeably better. i was getting ~18rps in auto on a 12:1 short-stroked build on 7.4 whilst retaining very snappy response in semi.

 

the contacts are a bit more delicate going onto a pcb, and installation does need an extra bit of care, however once it's in there then there's no dirt from brushes as a bonus.

 

Be interesting to see what the differences are on the Warhead BASE vs an Infinity CNC. The price difference is down to £20 and the performance is (in theory at least) less than the standard motor.

[infyrana]

Thanks @Hatchet the video had a nice bit of extra info in that I didn't know.

 

I spotted the BASE model too, definitely worth considering but I think I'd rather stick to the Black for the moment.  I see they are doing a new 'Ronin' version too, surpassing the Black variant for performance of parts.  The price will tell just how interesting this one will be.

 

Well I picked up my LCT, managed to somehow fit a Titan 7.4v 3k mAh stick in there.  So if the Warhead is 'that' efficient, I might just get a full days worth of skirmish out of it lol.

[Hatchet]

From what they're saying the performance on the BASE won't be as good as the Black, but still better than standard brushed. I guess it's comparable to the upgrade from HDD on PC's to SSD's. Even the slow SATA SSD's are better than the HDDs.

 

I'm not entirely sold on the Titan batteries. Some articles seem to suggest they're not up to the job. But if they work for you, fair enough. I always favour the largest brick with the highest C I can get in there, but Ak's... not a lot of choices I guess.

[Adolf Hamster]

20 minutes ago, Hatchet said:

From what they're saying the performance on the BASE won't be as good as the Black, but still better than standard brushed. I guess it's comparable to the upgrade from HDD on PC's to SSD's. Even the slow SATA SSD's are better than the HDDs.

 

best i can make out that's probably a good analogy.

 

seems they're switching to a cast rather than machined casing (shouldnt affect performance too much tbh) and moving to machine winding, which i don't know enough about motors to know how big an impact that'll have.

[infyrana]

46 minutes ago, Hatchet said:

I'm not entirely sold on the Titan batteries. Some articles seem to suggest they're not up to the job. But if they work for you, fair enough. I always favour the largest brick with the highest C I can get in there, but Ak's... not a lot of choices I guess.

 

From the dozens of batteries I've been through, it'll be the first Titan.  So it's new to me too and I'll be interested to find out how well it performs.  Since my LCT came at the lower end of 280fps, I didn't really get to hear yet how fast the motor isn't or how good the battery is (from all that I've read).  But we'll soon get that all sorted out to test

 

 

24 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

seems they're switching to a cast rather than machined casing (shouldnt affect performance too much tbh) and moving to machine winding, which i don't know enough about motors to know how big an impact that'll have.

 

The blurb on the Warhead Ronin is the opposite to the BASE, with CNC motor and upgraded bearings, rotor, magnets and materials etc.  Nice to have choice for those balancing the wallet to quality/performance.

[Lozart]

19 hours ago, Hatchet said:

I'm not entirely sold on the Titan batteries. Some articles seem to suggest they're not up to the job. But if they work for you, fair enough. I always favour the largest brick with the highest C I can get in there, but Ak's... not a lot of choices I guess.

 

I'm intrigued as to how that guys gun actually performs normally. I find that the 7.4v Titans I use work comparably to every other 7.4v LiPo I've used in the past. So far they've been in two of my M14s, my MK12 DMR (420FPS with an M120 spring) and my old G&G SCAR L. No problems with rate of fire or trigger response on any of them!

[Hatchet]

Well, it turns out it doesn't fit the M249. The position of the spade connectors relative to the back of the bell housing (I might be making these words up) is different and it won't clear the gearbox shell. Fortunately as I was being super careful for once, I discovered this without snapping anything off.

 

There's not a huge amount in it, so it might work with some filing of the gearbox. A job for the weekend I suspect.

 

One benefit I have enjoyed already is not having all my screws/tools/belt buckles fly towards it whilst installing like they do with the current motor.

[Adolf Hamster]

i was about to comment about why use one of these in an auto only gun, then i remembered how much gunk accumulates from the brushes after heavy use.....

[Hatchet]

9 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

i was about to comment about why use one of these in an auto only gun, then i remembered how much gunk accumulates from the brushes after heavy use.....

 

And, whilst you don't get quite the same benefit as you would with a semi-spamming build, having a motor that runs longer without getting hot and is more power efficient isn't a bad thing. In all honesty, it's curiosity rather than a specific need that's prompted me to get one, but we're here now, so...

[Hatchet]

Filed down the gearbox, fitted it ok. I have the high speed (which is the middle of the range). It is ridiculously fast even on standard gears and I should probably have gone for the standard.

 

Well, it was fast, until the grub screw on the pinion unscrewed and started gouging the gearbox shell...

 

Back to the drawing board, and also the shops to get green loctite

[Hatchet]

Well, not much to report. I am trying to see if I can get it swapped for a Standard speed instead, but apparently they (Warhead) won't do swaps if it is "used". This seems strange given the videos found on that there Youtube promoting how robust/indestructible they are. I could understand if it was sent back on fire with all the tabs snapped off, etc. but would have thought that's pretty easy to test.

Don't really want to go down the route of Consumer Contract Regulations (formerly DSR), so I'm hoping they'll have a change of heart. 

 

I see the new Ronin they've built switches out the connectors for pre-wired, which looks like a way of avoiding the tab snapping problem, but don't think it would work at all on a 249 sadly.

[Lozart]

21 hours ago, Hatchet said:

Well, not much to report. I am trying to see if I can get it swapped for a Standard speed instead, but apparently they (Warhead) won't do swaps if it is "used". This seems strange given the videos found on that there Youtube promoting how robust/indestructible they are. I could understand if it was sent back on fire with all the tabs snapped off, etc. but would have thought that's pretty easy to test.

Don't really want to go down the route of Consumer Contract Regulations (formerly DSR), so I'm hoping they'll have a change of heart. 

 

I see the new Ronin they've built switches out the connectors for pre-wired, which looks like a way of avoiding the tab snapping problem, but don't think it would work at all on a 249 sadly.

 

I doubt you'll have a leg to stand on. If it's not defective but it's been used then they can't resell it with a warranty so why should they take it back? 

[Badgerlicious]

On 13/11/2021 at 20:26, Hatchet said:

Well, it was fast, until the grub screw on the pinion unscrewed and started gouging the gearbox shell...

did you use loctite? if so what type? I'm gonna be putting one in tomorrow. It would've been today but I burnt myself on my heat gun

[Hatchet]

6 hours ago, Lozart said:

 

I doubt you'll have a leg to stand on. If it's not defective but it's been used then they can't resell it with a warranty so why should they take it back? 

 

My belief was, under CCR you had 14 days from receipt to effectively just change your mind for no reason. Limitations on this include

• something that deteriorates quickly – like flowers or food
• an item that was personalised or custom-made
• anything from a private individual rather than a business
• a CD, DVD or software, if the seal is broken
• Pierced earrings and other items that are unhygienic to resell

but that doesn't seem to cover motors. Same way you can return clothes, etc. I'd imagine there's some stipulations on them being undamaged.

 

Putting that aside, it should be relatively easy to test them on return to see that they are, indeed, still working. They've probably had more usage going through initial QC...

Additionally, they give a year's warranty on it which makes you think it's pretty robust...

 

2 hours ago, Badgerlicious said:

did you use loctite? if so what type? I'm gonna be putting one in tomorrow. It would've been today but I burnt myself on my heat gun

 

I did, but it was medium which isn't up to the job (to be fair, they mention recommending Red as a minimum, but I was using generic threadlock described as "medium"). In the meantime I have ordered some Green. Which does mean I'll need a heat gun if I ever want to take it apart again.

 

[Badgerlicious]

17 minutes ago, Hatchet said:

My belief was, under CCR you had 14 days from receipt to effectively just change your mind for no reason

Nope, only if it's faulty. https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

 

20 minutes ago, Hatchet said:

but it was medium

Yeah, that'll do it. Blue/medium is supposed to be removable by hand. No way it'll hold up to being used on a motor. 

[concretesnail]

I know you change your mind under distance selling rules but I think you have to returning it in an unused condition, if you have used it, then it would be warranty on faulty if it is faulty. Faulty doesn't cover user error/assembly error unfortunately unless the instructions are wrong.

[EDcase]

Sell it in the classifieds.  You won't get the full value back but 2/3 is better than nothin..

[Hatchet]

9 hours ago, Badgerlicious said:

Nope, only if it's faulty. https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

 

Yeah, that'll do it. Blue/medium is supposed to be removable by hand. No way it'll hold up to being used on a motor. 

 

You've missed the section underneath that that specifically covers distance selling.

 

"Online, mail and telephone order customers have the right to cancel their order for a limited time even if the goods are not faulty. Sales of this kind are known as ‘distance selling’.

You must offer a refund to customers if they’ve told you within 14 days of receiving their goods that they want to cancel. They have another 14 days to return the goods once they’ve told you.

You must refund the customer within 14 days of receiving the goods back. They do not have to provide a reason."

 

 

9 hours ago, concretesnail said:

I know you change your mind under distance selling rules but I think you have to returning it in an unused condition, if you have used it, then it would be warranty on faulty if it is faulty. Faulty doesn't cover user error/assembly error unfortunately unless the instructions are wrong.

 

Again, don't think this is correct (unless you can cite sources?). If I buy a laptop, it can still be returned once I've fired it up, had a play with it and gone "oh no, doesn't work for me". If I'd broken it during installation this would be a different matter.

 

5 hours ago, EDcase said:

Sell it in the classifieds.  You won't get the full value back but 2/3 is better than nothin..

 

Perhaps so. I shouldn't have to though. I guess it's that old question of how much energy do I want to invest chasing this down. 

[Adolf Hamster]

11 hours ago, Hatchet said:

My belief was, under CCR you had 14 days from receipt to effectively just change your mind for no reason. Limitations on this include

 

the intention is to give you the same opportunities for inspection before purchase you'd have in a store.

 

for example a while back i bought a microphone for my pc, when it showed up it was twice the size i thought it was going to be, pictures can be deceiving. in that case i was ok with it, but had i planned on the item being a given size i could have returned it (unused) based on that. same with clothes/shoes- in a shop you could try on for size but online you have to trust their measurement scheme and it's well known that manufacturer sizes aren't consistent.

 

the problem in this case is that the speed of the motor is something you could have known before purchase, as they publish those figures for each model- eg the "high speed" doing 25000rpm on 7.4v (~23rps on 18:1) and 36000rpm on 11.1v (~33rps on 18:1). when i ordered i used those numbers and the intended gear ratio/battery of my build to work out that the standard would be more appropriate for my use case.

[Lozart]

1 hour ago, Hatchet said:

 

You've missed the section underneath that that specifically covers distance selling.

 

"Online, mail and telephone order customers have the right to cancel their order for a limited time even if the goods are not faulty. Sales of this kind are known as ‘distance selling’.

You must offer a refund to customers if they’ve told you within 14 days of receiving their goods that they want to cancel. They have another 14 days to return the goods once they’ve told you.

You must refund the customer within 14 days of receiving the goods back. They do not have to provide a reason."

 

 

 

Again, don't think this is correct (unless you can cite sources?). If I buy a laptop, it can still be returned once I've fired it up, had a play with it and gone "oh no, doesn't work for me". If I'd broken it during installation this would be a different matter.

 

 

Perhaps so. I shouldn't have to though. I guess it's that old question of how much energy do I want to invest chasing this down. 

 

At this point I'd say try asking them. If they say no then it's up to you if you want to take it further. They might just say yes and it'll be a darn sight quicker than arguing the toss with us all here.