Sending RIF in post without UKARA

[AirsoftMark]

I have a UKARA membership and one of my friends has recently decided to start airsofting, I offered to gift him one of my old AEGs but he lives relatively far away (2 hours). Obviously he does not have a UKARA membership, and due to the distance I would rather send the RIF by courier. Is it legal, and will I encounter any problems sending a RIF to my friend via a courier? Would I need to put my UKARA membership number on the packaging, and would that cause any problems since the package would be going to a different address than that which is registered with my UKARA membership? If it's too much hassle then I could charge it up for him and bring it down the next time we go skirmishing. Thanks all

[Leonine]

I always sell with Ukara but I have never put ukara number on packaging I don’t actually think it means much to couriers. Just put toy on the reference for ParcelForce and you should be fine. 
 

As long as they are in uk may I add. 

[EDcase]

You don't need to put UKARA number on the package if sending within the UK.

ParcelForce48 are the only courier service that will officially carry replica firearms but claiming on a lost package with one may throw up a lot of obstacles.

I've sent a few over the years marked as 'Sports Equipment' without a problem but it surely can happen.

 

Meeting half way is an option if you ensure it remains completely covered at all times.

If you can meet him at an airsoft venue that would be the best choice.   You could also explain the use and care of the AEG at the same time.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by EDcase

[Guest]

I’ve posted over a hundred RIF’s via RM & PF, always declared as a toy gun and never had an issue YET lol

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, rocketdogbert said:

I’ve posted over a hundred RIF’s via RM & PF, always declared as a toy gun

 

Funnily enough, they explicitly exclude toy guns.  The only thing they'll ship is "low powered air weapons" (but not imitations).

 

 

 

I know that Post Office Counters are happy to accept airsoft guns, and are even happy to sell >£100 compensation for them that Parcel Force say they won't honour, so in the event of something going wrong it would be a merry old mess to sort out.

 

This is why I ship with whoever's cheapest, well packaged (so they can't wreck it), and marked as "sporting goods" (because if they lose it, how are they going to prove otherwise?)

 

 

 

[tinkle60]

On 20/09/2021 at 09:55, Rogerborg said:

This is why I ship with whoever's cheapest, well packaged (so they can't wreck it), and marked as "sporting goods" (because if they lose it, how are they going to prove otherwise?)

 

 

 

 

You're a braver man than I. I've been burnt using DPD, RIF detected in a security scanner.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, tinkle60 said:

You're a braver man than I. I've been burnt using DPD, RIF detected in a security scanner.

 

Wow, that's a surprise, I'm amazed that they bothered to check.  What was the outcome?

[Leonine]

1 hour ago, tinkle60 said:

 

You're a braver man than I. I've been burnt using DPD, RIF detected in a security scanner.

Strange I have sent a gun via DPD before no issues and so has my mate. U sure it wasn’t a worker trying his luck with a package and getting scared when he had a realistic Airsoft gun in his possession 🤨

[EDcase]

Since 'Replica Weapons' is explicitly stated in their list of prohibited items if they find out about it in whatever way, you can say goodbye to it without any compensation.

[Voodoo.]

On 19/09/2021 at 22:17, AirsoftMark said:

I have a UKARA membership and one of my friends has recently decided to start airsofting, I offered to gift him one of my old AEGs but he lives relatively far away (2 hours). Obviously he does not have a UKARA membership, and due to the distance I would rather send the RIF by courier. Is it legal, and will I encounter any problems sending a RIF to my friend via a courier? Would I need to put my UKARA membership number on the packaging, and would that cause any problems since the package would be going to a different address than that which is registered with my UKARA membership? If it's too much hassle then I could charge it up for him and bring it down the next time we go skirmishing. Thanks all

To add on to the other lads, the law states it's illegal to sell an RIF to someone without a UKARA membership. This means no goods or currency can be exchanged as payment for the RIF. If you're gifting the RIF to your friend, with nothing being exchanged in return, then it's perfectly legal.

[ak2m4]

13 minutes ago, Voodoo. said:

To add on to the other lads, the law states it's illegal to sell an RIF to someone without a UKARA membership.

 

you mean valid defense...

[EDcase]

54 minutes ago, Voodoo. said:

To add on to the other lads, the law states it's illegal to sell an RIF to someone without a UKARA membership...

The law states that a buyer of a RIF must be over 18 and have a valid defence.

This is done by retailers with 'defences' such as UKARA, Reenactment Society membership, Museum Curator, Film/TV production.

 

For private sales its the sellers responsibility to ensure the buyer is a legitimate airsofter.

You can sell to anyone (if you think they are legit) BUT if that person then commits a crime with the RIF then it can come back to you being prosecuted depending on the gravity of the crime.

 

(Has there been a case of a seller being prosecuted?)

Edited September 27, 2021 by EDcase

[Voodoo.]

1 hour ago, ak2m4 said:

 

you mean valid defense...

Yes, I was going by the most popular method, being UKARA.

 

49 minutes ago, EDcase said:

The law states that a buyer of a RIF must be over 18 and have a valid defence.

This is done by retailers with 'defences' such as UKARA, Reenactment Society membership, Museum Curator, Film/TV production.

 

For private sales its the sellers responsibility to ensure the buyer is a legitimate airsofter.

You can sell to anyone (if you think they are legit) BUT if that person then commits a crime with the RIF then it can come back to you being prosecuted depending on the gravity of the crime.

 

(Has there been a case of a seller being prosecuted?)

True, however this law doesn't apply to "gifts". To have a UKARA membership is to have a valid defence, ie proof you're planning on using it for airsoft and nothing else. However, for private owners, so long as you're gifting the firearm, it is not against the law, which is what I was referring to in relation to OP's original post. OP should be fine to send the RIF to his friend legally, so long as nothing was exchanged in return for said gift.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, EDcase said:

Has there been a case of a seller being prosecuted?

 

I've been unable to find anything on http://www.bailii.org/

 

The closest case law that seems relevant (that I can find) is Cooke vs CPP, about the Police Act, impersonation, and the sale of police equipment. The justices took a very broad interpretation of lawful purpose, up to and including a "fancy dress party", and held that mens rea (guilty mind) must be present in a criminal case.

 

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2015/3312.html&query="fancy-dress+party"

 

However, they also criticised the law for being vague as to the burden of proof, and the VCRA, the subsequent 2007 amendment, and the anonymous Home Office explanatory note cover in some detail a defence scheme that is essentially the UKARA process.

 

tl;dr version - dunno, it could go either way.  I'd be happy for either Fat Bobs or AirsoftWorld to be test cases, given that they both openly sell without a real defence.

[tinkle60]

 

On 21/09/2021 at 21:31, Rogerborg said:

 

Wow, that's a surprise, I'm amazed that they bothered to check.  What was the outcome?

 

it's going to depend on which depots/sorting centres they go to, the level of security (for parcels) will vary from site to site. Lost it, no recourse since it was a prohibited item and wouldn't send it back to me since it was a prohibited item.

 

On 21/09/2021 at 21:40, Leonine said:

Strange I have sent a gun via DPD before no issues and so has my mate. U sure it wasn’t a worker trying his luck with a package and getting scared when he had a realistic Airsoft gun in his possession 🤨

 

You think they would have told me if that was the case?

[AirSniper]

Couriers and postal services are fickle.

I had 2 gas struts for my car delivered by ... ROYAL MAIL.

Returning for an RMA, sending via ROYAL MAIL ... REFUSED at the counter. The reason... Car Parts.

So its a game...

I used to work for TNT and the route I had included 4 RFD's where I would regularly be delivering ammunition, shotguns, Rifles and Pistols... 

 

So, couriers, pick one and ask, if the price is right they will ship it.

 

[EDcase]

Supply/Retail companies have deals with delivery firms so a company sending products is a different situation to public sending the same product.

 

ParcelForce48 is the only carrier that will officially take a replica.

With any other service there's a risk of it being destroyed if discovered.

Edited October 1, 2021 by EDcase

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

23 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Supply/Retail companies have deals with delivery firms so a company sending products is a different situation to public sending the same product.

 

ParcelForce48 is the only carrier that will officially take a replica.

With any other service there's a risk of it being destroyed if discovered.

 

sincerely interested not trying to start a fight - where does it say that? I couldn't find it and indeed spoke to someone on the phone about it - not that the latter means its official. I did end up doing a fairly large discount on a RIF if they collected cause i didn't want to post it for that reason. cheers!

[EDcase]

From ParcelForce website

Arms and Ammunition All firearms, other than low-powered air weapons sent within the UK (air rifles, air guns and air pistols), including imitations and antiques; paint-ball or toy guns; taser guns; components of firearms and all other items similar to, or resembling, the foregoing are prohibited. All ammunition other than lead pellets and other air gun and airsoft projectiles is also prohibited.

Arms and Ammunition - low powered air weapons Low-powered air weapons (air rifles, air guns and air pistols), together with lead pellets and other airgun and airsoft projectiles, can be sent but are subject to the following conditions: These items must be sent on an express48 service only These items must be sent via the Post Office only, and presented at the counter Enhanced compensation cover is not available

Yes

No

 

The 'Yes' 'No' on the right is for

UK=Yes

International=No

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RoyalMail

• UK - Allowed in the mail, see restrictions and packaging guidelines below:
• • Guns intended for sporting purposes - including Section 1 (e.g. hunting rifles) and Section 2 (e.g. shotguns) firearms, low-powered air weapons and their component parts - may be sent in compliance with UK law and subject to domestic controls on the possession of firearms. Antiques, deactivated and imitation firearms are also permitted. When sending deactivated firearms include proof of deactivation.
  • Items that appear to be prohibited weapons may be subject to additional checks and delays.
  • Use 1st Class as the minimum service.The senders name and address must be clear on the packaging. Low-powered air weapons which exceed the Royal Mail size restrictions are accepted by Parcelforce Worldwide, using express48 via the Post Office.
  • Guns must not be loaded.
  • Air weapons with an integral gas cylinder that are de-pressurised can only be accepted. Air weapons with gas cylinders that are pressurised are prohibited
  • Air weapons with a pressurised removable gas cylinder which is still attached are prohibited
  • Must be packed in rigid outer packaging suitable for the gun size and weight, for example a fibreboard box, with sufficient inner packaging to prevent movement during transport.

So you might be OK with RoyalMail but depends on the knowledge of the particular handler.

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As an example for other carriers, MyHermes lists this under prohibited items:

Weapons and replica weapons – Including decorative, deactivated or air powered weapons

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by EDcase

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

Thanks that is the same thing I saw. But I interpreted it (and i may be wrong) as saying that

 

• all firearms are prohibited
• but low powered air weapons sent within the uk (air rifles, air guns and air pistols) are allowed
• imitations, antiques, paintball guns, toy guns, tasers...etc are prohibited

 

the next section then talks about how low powered air weapons (including airsoft projectiles amongst others) are fine but must be on PF48.

 

im not mr cynical but if something was to go wrong my assumption is that PF would take a similar line. house always wins and all that jazz.

 

cheers

 

edit: RM seems pretty unambiguous that imitation firearms are allowed (I think??) which is good i guess. thanks again

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by GeorgePlaysAirsoft

[EDcase]

Yeah, its confusing 🤪

Its probably safer to declare them as 'low-powered air weapons'

 

Still depends a lot on who deals with the particular package and the knowledge of their supervisor...🙄 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by EDcase

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

5 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Yeah, its confusing 🤪

Its probably safer to declare them as 'low-powered air weapons'

 

Still depends a lot on who deals with the particular package and the knowledge of their supervisor...🙄 

 

ha agreed. when i did send (and if i say so myself, a pretty expensive one with some bespoke machined parts that i wanted fitted) via PF48 i 1) declared it as a "LPAW" 2) didn't bother insuring it 3) nearly shat myself at the thought of something going wrong!

 

I have had a very good experience with camoraids for all sorts of reasons but that they arrange pick up and drop off themselves rather then leaving you to it is a massive bonus for me.

 

thanks again

[2MT Paul]

4 hours ago, AirSniper said:

Couriers and postal services are fickle.

I had 2 gas struts for my car delivered by ... ROYAL MAIL.

Returning for an RMA, sending via ROYAL MAIL ... REFUSED at the counter. The reason... Car Parts.

So its a game...

I used to work for TNT and the route I had included 4 RFD's where I would regularly be delivering ammunition, shotguns, Rifles and Pistols... 

 

So, couriers, pick one and ask, if the price is right they will ship it.

 

I had similar

 

Royal Mail would not let me post a steering wheel. it was a vintage so so it was not an airbag explosive issue.  Just its a steering wheel sir 🤭🤭

[Neptune]

5 hours ago, EDcase said:

From ParcelForce website

 

 

I don't know where you got that information from, but the page below clearly says that replicas/imitations are not allowed.

 

https://www.parcelforce.com/help-and-advice/sending/prohibitions-and-restrictions

 

 

As has been mentioned, businesses can send them, but not individuals.

[EDcase]

Yes, that's what I posted earlier but yours is better.

It clearly states that you can send within the UK if using express48 service.

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by EDcase