Bad Publicity?

[kasaran]

11 minutes ago, osteoshot said:

I’m pretty sure the majority of gun deaths in the UK are farmers committing suicide with a shotgun.

But that’s going from memory from some stats a couple of years ago.

whilst tragic it does not feed into the “gun deaths” headline that the media would run it as

 

true, but by gun offences i am assuming its due to reported crime? i doubt suicides would be included in those stats.  by the by, i remember reading something suggesting suicide was much more likely in people with ready access to firearms.  something about them being quick, and no chance for second thoughts

[DRay]

19 minutes ago, kasaran said:

 

 

Personally as i said previously.  You have a chance to out run or fight back with a knife man.  And for practicl purposes.  Its only the people with a meter of the knife man at risk.  Not everyone within 50 metres etc  thats just my view on it.  See my earlier reference to the isis knife attacks in london a couple years back.

 
You’ve hit the nail on the head there; you can’t get around the requirement to own knives for chopping onions and gutting fish etc, you absolutely can manage without a gun because most of us do (or make do with a RIF which is 100% good fun and 100% safe as long as it isn’t in a post office or a bank). 
 

People do get stabbed and killed, but you’ve got a fighting chance with a narwhal tusk/traffic cone/just getting on your toes. Without sounding too crude if someone loses it with a knife in a public place I don’t have to outrun the attacker, I just have to outrun a couple of other people...

No one can outrun a 7.62 or a 5.56. 

[MiK]

14 minutes ago, DRay said:

No one can outrun a 7.62 or a 5.56. 

or (according to recent news) a certain YouTuber’s hit marker ........

[Spartan09]

5 minutes ago, MiK said:

or (according to recent news) a certain YouTuber’s hit marker ........

NOOOO!!!!!

DONT MENTION ZE YOUTUBER!!

 

[kasaran]

21 minutes ago, DRay said:

 
You’ve hit the nail on the head there; you can’t get around the requirement to own knives for chopping onions and gutting fish etc, you absolutely can manage without a gun because most of us do (or make do with a RIF which is 100% good fun and 100% safe as long as it isn’t in a post office or a bank). 
 

and if you do take your RIF into such a place, expect to be faced with police pointing their F at you

[GenuineGerman]

Just now, kasaran said:

and if you do take your RIF into such a place, expect to be faced with police pointing their F at you

Yeah you would have to be pretty silly to do that it almost a Darwin Award. 

[colinjallen]

22 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

here here

 

i already have my social distancing system in place- if i can poke you with a bayonet on the dragonuv you're too damn close!

That works with my SLR and bayonet as well :).

[Druid799]

Having been In the lucky position of once owning real firearms AND had the miss fortune to have them shot at me personally I’m more than happy with the gun control in this country . I genuinely see no reason to own anything apart from what’s on the statutes right now , for me all the reasons and excuses that are always given to own anything else are simple just excuses not reasons .

The right to defend ones self and home , in the past 10yrs how many people (bar old age pensioners who probably Couldn’t have defended them selves even if they had a gun) have died at the hands of a burglar ? There’s been several cases of the burglar dying at the hands of the home owner(the pikey who was stabbed 2yrs ago for instance ?) but the home owner ? I can’t think of any . Also as anyone who’s ever been shot at or seen someone being shot at unless you train day in day out for mths 90% of the population will just crap them selves/freeze/panic or just react totally incorrectly to the situation so that’s that one down in flames . 
The criminals still have them , yes they do but that’s what armed response are for , again in the past 10yrs how many random members of the public have been shot and killed by a criminal ? Plus have you seen the kind of guns that are frequently picked up by the police on ops ? 8 out of 10 are pieces of shit ! another burned argument .

i should have the right to be able to own them as a good law abiding tax paying citizen , err no you shouldn’t , there plenty of things that joe public just shouldn’t and don’t have . 
Should ban alcohol and tobacco because of the number of deaths each year , now this one really is a puerile argument , most deaths from both these are self inflicted FFS ! when was the last time you saw a story on the news about some nutter kicking in the door of a school and making all the kids have a fag and a pint with him and kept them going till they all developed sclerosis of the liver and lung cancer and died ?!?! 
no one can deny the fact there just isn’t any real gun crime in this country plain and simple where as America is just beyond saving there’s just too many guns in circulation so they NEVER will solve it .

In the UK since 1837 when the records first started and the present there’s been two reported school shootings , the first was in 1850 when a boy took his fathers old service revolver to school and shot two of his mates (he got transported to Australia for that one !) and Dunblane 1996 when 16 children and 1 teacher was killed and 15 others wounded , and what happened after that ? They banned private ownership of hand guns . Was the country flooded with armed criminals now the population were unarmed ? Nope nothing changed . 
you know how many school gun incidents there been in America since the year 2000 ? 347 ! That’s how many times law enforcement has been called to an educational facility to deal with criminal activity involving firearms . I’m sorry but that statistic alone show just how fucked up there gun laws are and how correct ours are as they are .

I’m more than happy with what I’ve got thank you very much .😁👍

[DRay]

@Druid799 you have made a serious point very eloquently and with a completely salient thought process. 
 

i fucking pissed myself at the idea of a bloke breaking into a school to make all the kids have a fag and a pint with him! That guy is my hero. 

[GenuineGerman]

@Druid799 some really great points there and I understand your reasoning. I believe a farmer was convicted a fair old while ago for killing a young burglar with an illegally held shotgun. 
 

I personally don’t think saying that banning alcohol or Smoking is puerile and my reason being the following. I should say that smoking is self inflicted and would completely agree on that however I think with alcohol it’s a different argument. Let’s take guns out of argument briefly 39% of the 516,000 odd violent crimes last year in England and Wales where alcohol related so for me there is an argument to for banning alcohol as  one third of people who commit Violent crimes under the influence of alcohol. Bearing in mind this is violent crime not drink driving or just being drunk in public. Would this statistic be worse if people had guns? Possibly I think you could argue it would be quite reasonably. However the of these 200,000 odd victims of terrible crimes how many could have prevented a crime happening to them if they were armed? I’m not saying they fired a weapon but even just the implied threat of it being used can be a deterrent. Again we can’t measure this as there isn’t any data and I’m only surmising. 
 

I also agree that we don’t have a gun problem in the UK because they aren’t readily available but we do have a knife problem, a very serious one. I understand the reasoning for needing knives and wouldn’t call for them to be banned but a knife is still a lethal weapon as is a gun in the wrong hands. 
 

Now if we consider that like someone mentioned on here that the average knife used in a stabbing in this country is a kitchen knife that you can buy at a supermarket these are scarily easily available yet people argue that a knife is just a tool. Well so is a gun isn’t it? 
 

thankfully criminals tend to use guns against other criminals but knife crime in this country scares me genuinely so let’s regulate knife sales properly and make sure that people can’t just buy a samurai sword unless they have a good enough reason for it. Kitchen knives will have to kept in a safe and you will need to sign them out and in every time you use them. Sounds pretty stupid but then can be lethal can’t they? 
 

So joe public shouldn’t have knives either because the statistics prove they can’t be trusted and alcohol as well because they can’t be trusted. 
 

Would you ban knifes? Would you ban alcohol? 
 

I think the UK does have very good gun laws however I just think that if someone wants AR15 they should at least be allowed to apply to have one. If they get one or not depends on the authorities then. 
 

[kasaran]

7 hours ago, GenuineGerman said:

@Druid799 some really great points there and I understand your reasoning. I believe a farmer was convicted a fair old while ago for killing a young burglar with an illegally held shotgun. 
 

I personally don’t think saying that banning alcohol or Smoking is puerile and my reason being the following. I should say that smoking is self inflicted and would completely agree on that however I think with alcohol it’s a different argument. Let’s take guns out of argument briefly 39% of the 516,000 odd violent crimes last year in England and Wales where alcohol related so for me there is an argument to for banning alcohol as  one third of people who commit Violent crimes under the influence of alcohol. Bearing in mind this is violent crime not drink driving or just being drunk in public. Would this statistic be worse if people had guns? Possibly I think you could argue it would be quite reasonably. However the of these 200,000 odd victims of terrible crimes how many could have prevented a crime happening to them if they were armed? I’m not saying they fired a weapon but even just the implied threat of it being used can be a deterrent. Again we can’t measure this as there isn’t any data and I’m only surmising. 
 

I also agree that we don’t have a gun problem in the UK because they aren’t readily available but we do have a knife problem, a very serious one. I understand the reasoning for needing knives and wouldn’t call for them to be banned but a knife is still a lethal weapon as is a gun in the wrong hands. 
 

Now if we consider that like someone mentioned on here that the average knife used in a stabbing in this country is a kitchen knife that you can buy at a supermarket these are scarily easily available yet people argue that a knife is just a tool. Well so is a gun isn’t it? 
 

thankfully criminals tend to use guns against other criminals but knife crime in this country scares me genuinely so let’s regulate knife sales properly and make sure that people can’t just buy a samurai sword unless they have a good enough reason for it. Kitchen knives will have to kept in a safe and you will need to sign them out and in every time you use them. Sounds pretty stupid but then can be lethal can’t they? 
 

So joe public shouldn’t have knives either because the statistics prove they can’t be trusted and alcohol as well because they can’t be trusted. 
 

Would you ban knifes? Would you ban alcohol? 
 

I think the UK does have very good gun laws however I just think that if someone wants AR15 they should at least be allowed to apply to have one. If they get one or not depends on the authorities then. 
 

 

The farmer got prosecuted for it as he should for illegal possession.  he also shot them in the back as they were running away i believe.

 

Im pretty sure if tobacco or alcohol were new discoveries they would be controlled or outright banned.  But theres the problem with the heritage behind certain substances.  In my experiance though, you know the violent drunks before they have any amount of alcohol, it reduces inhibitions....  Though i do feel 'i was under the influence'  is used far too often as an excuse, like it lessens the crime. 

 

A small percentage of crimes may have been prevented were the victim armed.  but then again, in that situation, the criminal would also be armed (back to the gun owning arms race senario).  The police in this world would 100% have to be armed as well.  and in a country where everyone you come accross might be packing, then i bet unlawful death by being shot by law enforcement, scared for their own life would sky rocket.

 

knife crime stat for 2019 (47349) accounts for 0.81% of all crime reported that year in the UK (total reported crimes were 5.8 million).  knife crime is scewed in the news, short of pandemic, its the big story of the time.  It comes in waves, for example, if you followed the tabloids in the late 90's then the country was infested by paedofiles.  There is a brass eye episode from the 80's (?) that i am certain will never be aired again because the current generation have no sence of humour.

 

forgive me again for jumping to conclusions and reading between the lines.  but you say your scared of knife crime.  well an AR15 is not going to disarm the criminal, its just going to increase his potental range of influence, because if you have an ar15 he will have similar, and being his intent, he would have it pointed at you first.  its also not what you would need? im guessing your thinking a more concealed carry option?

 

It all boils down to 'if you can legally own a gun, anyone who picks a fight with you is also likely to own a gun'  so the threat or issue is not solved, the ranges and potential collatoral go up. 

 

as for banning knives because they can kill (like guns), have a think.  other than killing something what use has a gun got?  can it do anything other than shoot a projectile?  is there a daily application for it?  even weekly?  when handguns etc were banned here and in australia 'self defence' is not a valid reason.  as someone else said, if no one else has a gun, then you dont need one. 

 

licencing and checks to own a gun are like STD tests.  only accurate on the day of the test.  It just poves you havent had a mental break down or comited a crime....YET.  what if there is an unchecked mental condition? what if they are highly strung and things are not going well at work, or family life is getting tough (the wife leaving you and taking the kids etc), what if your paranoid and someone just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?  everyone has a breaking point, and you just legally armed them?  I will admit that peoples breaking point is most likely to result in suicide by gun, but a few of them may have a degree of murder before the gun gets turned on themselves...

 

As said earlier, knife crime scares you.  thats fine.  though i would argue, unless your in an inner city area associated with gang crime the chances of having one waved at you are far lower than the news would imply.  but maybe there should be an new type of firearm with a catridge of an effective killing range of 5 meters? out of range of knives etc.  would never happen though.  but then i would guarantee that the knife crime rate would drop and gun crime rates with this new 'personal defence' weapon would go up.

[GenuineGerman]

40 minutes ago, kasaran said:

 

The farmer got prosecuted for it as he should for illegal possession.  he also shot them in the back as they were running away i believe.

 

Im pretty sure if tobacco or alcohol were new discoveries they would be controlled or outright banned.  But theres the problem with the heritage behind certain substances.  In my experiance though, you know the violent drunks before they have any amount of alcohol, it reduces inhibitions....  Though i do feel 'i was under the influence'  is used far too often as an excuse, like it lessens the crime. 

 

A small percentage of crimes may have been prevented were the victim armed.  but then again, in that situation, the criminal would also be armed (back to the gun owning arms race senario).  The police in this world would 100% have to be armed as well.  and in a country where everyone you come accross might be packing, then i bet unlawful death by being shot by law enforcement, scared for their own life would sky rocket.

 

knife crime stat for 2019 (47349) accounts for 0.81% of all crime reported that year in the UK (total reported crimes were 5.8 million).  knife crime is scewed in the news, short of pandemic, its the big story of the time.  It comes in waves, for example, if you followed the tabloids in the late 90's then the country was infested by paedofiles.  There is a brass eye episode from the 80's (?) that i am certain will never be aired again because the current generation have no sence of humour.

 

forgive me again for jumping to conclusions and reading between the lines.  but you say your scared of knife crime.  well an AR15 is not going to disarm the criminal, its just going to increase his potental range of influence, because if you have an ar15 he will have similar, and being his intent, he would have it pointed at you first.  its also not what you would need? im guessing your thinking a more concealed carry option?

 

It all boils down to 'if you can legally own a gun, anyone who picks a fight with you is also likely to own a gun'  so the threat or issue is not solved, the ranges and potential collatoral go up. 

 

as for banning knives because they can kill (like guns), have a think.  other than killing something what use has a gun got?  can it do anything other than shoot a projectile?  is there a daily application for it?  even weekly?  when handguns etc were banned here and in australia 'self defence' is not a valid reason.  as someone else said, if no one else has a gun, then you dont need one. 

 

licencing and checks to own a gun are like STD tests.  only accurate on the day of the test.  It just poves you havent had a mental break down or comited a crime....YET.  what if there is an unchecked mental condition? what if they are highly strung and things are not going well at work, or family life is getting tough (the wife leaving you and taking the kids etc), what if your paranoid and someone just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?  everyone has a breaking point, and you just legally armed them?  I will admit that peoples breaking point is most likely to result in suicide by gun, but a few of them may have a degree of murder before the gun gets turned on themselves...

 

As said earlier, knife crime scares you.  thats fine.  though i would argue, unless your in an inner city area associated with gang crime the chances of having one waved at you are far lower than the news would imply.  but maybe there should be an new type of firearm with a catridge of an effective killing range of 5 meters? out of range of knives etc.  would never happen though.  but then i would guarantee that the knife crime rate would drop and gun crime rates with this new 'personal defence' weapon would go up.

Yeah that right however i believe one of the tabloids was campaigning for him not to be charged, however he rightly go punished for that. I think to a certain extent it carries true that you know who the violent drunk is before they are drunk but this is doesn't change the fact they still commit violent crime.

 

I remember that episode, i think it was early 90's and i imagine its probably on the tube somewhere and yes knife crime does scare me so my thinking:

 

I actually would not like to see open or concealed carry in the UK, i don't think this benefits anyone and could cause avoidable situations situations. My argument for the AR15 simply is that you should be able to apply for one and then the police will decide if you need one, i suspect if you could do this now hardly anyone would have one.

 

What use does a gun have? So I would say that in the UK people enjoy shooting, hunting surely this is a good enough reason to have a gun? Knives are useful as well in hunting, woodworking and many other things however I'm trying to apply the same logic to knives and alcohol and can be applied to guns. If there were 516,000 Gun crimes in the UK in 2019 you'd be compelled to ban guns.

 

I don't believe knife crime is being portrayed as hyperbole statements by the press, you can put knife crime as percentage and make it seem smaller than it is however if there were 47349 gun related crimes in the UK for 2019 would you say its still scewed by the news?  The reason knife crime scares me so much (I live near Birmingham in one of the suburbs) that even where i live just before Christmas we had armed police patrolling as there were bands of youths armed with machetes and samurai swords terrifying residents. I don't live on some dodgy estate and even if I did nobody should live with the threat of be stabbed. These knives aren't licensed i 

 

I think you're correct with regards to licensing but then it strikes of the attitude of the police these day "everyone is a criminal they just haven't committed a crime yet, everyone is just a breakdown away from mass murder" How about have a bit of faith in humanity and knowing that just because I'm having a tough time with the missus doesn't mean I'm going to go out and start killing anyone.

[Tommikka]

The farmer was Tony Martin

Normally farmers can legitimately own shotguns, but he had already lost his licence for shooting at someone.  (He hit a vehicle when someone was stealing apples)

 

He obtained a pump action shotgun,  (later claiming to have ‘found’ it)

This was not classified as a shotgun due to capacity and required a full FAC.  (I recall that his pump action was also sawn off)

Bear in mind that he couldn’t hold a normal shotgun certificate, had a shotgun that didn’t fit in with a farmers normal needs - and add on that he would go to the pub telling everyone that he was going to shoot anybody who came on his land

 

On the previous occasion and on the night he was shooting at people who were leaving, and he killed by shooting  in the back

 

Tony Martin had planned to shoot, arguably to kill and had no argument to justify his actions were in ‘defence’ 

 

 

[kasaran]

 

46 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said:

I think to a certain extent it carries true that you know who the violent drunk is before they are drunk but this is doesn't change the fact they still commit violent crime.

 

I think you're correct with regards to licensing but then it strikes of the attitude of the police these day "everyone is a criminal they just haven't committed a crime yet, everyone is just a breakdown away from mass murder" How about have a bit of faith in humanity and knowing that just because I'm having a tough time with the missus doesn't mean I'm going to go out and start killing anyone.

until the concept behind minority report becomes reality then this cannot be stopped and its best to err on the side of caution. 

 

47 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said:

I actually would not like to see open or concealed carry in the UK, i don't think this benefits anyone and could cause avoidable situations situations. My argument for the AR15 simply is that you should be able to apply for one and then the police will decide if you need one, i suspect if you could do this now hardly anyone would have one.

As you admit, unikely to prove a need. though without conceal carry i fail to see how owning a gun is going to protect from knife crime? (even if after that point its more likely going to be gun crime)

 

48 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said:

What use does a gun have? So I would say that in the UK people enjoy shooting, hunting surely this is a good enough reason to have a gun? Knives are useful as well in hunting, woodworking and many other things however I'm trying to apply the same logic to knives and alcohol and can be applied to guns. If there were 516,000 Gun crimes in the UK in 2019 you'd be compelled to ban guns.

Hunting in the UK is seen more as a job than a hobby (unless your riding a horse with dogs) and therefore people who hunt tend to be again, farmers or pest control (think deer culls).  there are not many i can think of that do it recreationally as we lack the space or the big game to hunt on this island.  there are no week long hikes through the wilderness and animals to live off of.  a weeklong hike would probably result in you stumbling through hundreds of farms and dozens of villages, this is a very tamed land nature wise.  the best your gonna get is maybe to go on a shoot for pheasent (have looked, bloody expensive). 

 

If you really want to just 'own a gun' then i believe shooting clubs are the way to go.  but from what i have been told, the gun is stored in a non firing way at the club itself and not taken home.  though correct me on that if im wrong?

 

@Tommikkayeah, i googled him to remind myself of the case.  doesnt look to be the most level headed with political leanings and such.  though i guess the case, like the stabbed gypsey, hit a chord with the public over the right to defend your property.  glad it drew the line on him not only illegally owning the firearm, but also killing in not self defence.  scared for his life or not.  on both those occasions the threat was running away.

[Dogsbody100]

16 hours ago, kasaran said:

@GenuineGerman by your wording im guessing your american? Saying we?  And east german referencing suggests some heritage.  

 

The thing is in this country, we are not brought up with much of a gun culture.  We also dont have a history of being invaded or occupied by foreign elements.  As a result people generally dont associate freedom with owning a gun for home defence purposes. Also, there tends not be be quite so much paranoia in my experience towards the gov (just incompetence). 

 

I find it odd how many Americans are all 'we are the best country and shit' and yet have no faith in their systems of governance.  

 

And sure there is more people over in the states... but i find it kind of nice that after a mass school shooting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre  rules were tightened to prevent that happening again.  That was 1996...  i cannot think of another school shooting happening in the uk since.  Now. I would put the numbers of shootings during that time state side into the high 100s. And the death toll being much higher.  Australia i believe did the exact same thing and i would bet mass shootings also pretty much stopped afterwards.

 

But gun controls were already being tightened before that point courtesy of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre  this guy passed all checks and balances.  All his guns were legally owned...  hell. He killed one of the parents of the policeman who issued the licences i believe.

 

And dont give the 'good guy with a gun' crap.  Just like buses and police there would never be one in the area at the right time to help.  And chances are they might do more harm than good id rekon.

 

Its sad that things like this exist.

 

Perhaps other countries prioritise their kids not getting shot over their ability to own guns.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

Shows my point. Most are in northen ireland mind... but notice the frequency dropping immediately after the 90s.

 

Yet for 2019 there were 434 mass shootings... where were good guys with guns for those 517 people?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019

 

I dont get freedom=the ability to kill easily. 

 

It goes back to who would you rather be attacked by? A gun man or knife man.  I know who i would choose

With regards to the whole ‘good guy with a gun’ thing, see what you think of this 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

[kasaran]

14 minutes ago, Dogsbody100 said:

With regards to the whole ‘good guy with a gun’ thing, see what you think of this 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

 

for every 1 happy ending for the 'good guy with a gun' story there are dozens or hundreds more where there was no good guy or it back fired on them.  imagine if the initial guy didnt have a gun? would this have gone down the same way?

 

Again, just like police and buses, occasionally they do manage to be where they are needed, but thats far from most often

 

i know its an extreme and unrelated but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-24457031 does not mean everyone should be able to fly a place with next to no training.  he was lucky.  the survivors from that attack were lucky.  and im sure the pro gun lobby was all GOOD GUY WITH GUN HERO as opposed to saying 'maybe putting guns into everyones hands so easily isnt a good thing...'  perhaps those who were killed and their family may have a different perspective?

[Druid799]

Think it’s safe to say we’ve all reached the point where you’ve got your fore and against voters and they will never change there minds In this thread . I see absolutely no reason for anyone in this country to own an AR of any sort , you can’t hunt with it , there’s probably less than 10 public access ranges in the country you could fire it at and you certainly couldn’t have it out on display in your own home , so what is the point of wanting it ? If you want one in your hands that badly then buy a systema or some other ‘simulator’ gun , they feel and look identical to the real McCoy .

you can’t ban or control knives it’s just not possible , give me a butter knife that couldn’t cut paper with and I 100% guarantee I will return it to you in less than an hour sharp enough to shave with . So all knives are banned and everyone eats with plastic spoons , guess what all the criminals now start carrying home made shanks Instead . Few years ago ophthalmology in my local hospital had a run on prisoners being admitted from The local ‘land of stripy sunshine’ with the prongs from plastic forks stuck in the eyes and then snapped off , turned out the nick had had a massive clean up operation looking for improvised weapons and this was the result of that .

Man is inventive , if you take one way of hurting his fellow man away from him he will just invent another . So why let him have ones we know do the job very effectively when he really has no reason to have it ? 

16 minutes ago, Dogsbody100 said:

With regards to the whole ‘good guy with a gun’ thing, see what you think of this 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

If I close my eyes and throw a thousand darts at a dart board one is going to hit the bullseye eventually , does this mean from now on I can claim I can hit the bullseye with my eyes shut and everyone needs to keep there eyes shut to win at darts ? 

[GenuineGerman]

29 minutes ago, kasaran said:

until the concept behind minority report becomes reality then this cannot be stopped and its best to err on the side of caution. 

Soviet Bloc countries erred on the side of caution and we called them undemocratic.

 

30 minutes ago, kasaran said:

As you admit, unikely to prove a need. though without conceal carry i fail to see how owning a gun is going to protect from knife crime? (even if after that point its more likely going to be gun crime)

I would readily admit its not but if you ban knives then you haven't got knives or guns so problem solved? Probably not because the bad guys would fashion knives or 3d print guns.

 

32 minutes ago, kasaran said:

If you really want to just 'own a gun' then i believe shooting clubs are the way to go.  but from what i have been told, the gun is stored in a non firing way at the club itself and not taken home.  though correct me on that if im wrong?

I believe this is correct for the most however like anything im sure there are exceptions.

 

33 minutes ago, kasaran said:

Hunting in the UK is seen more as a job than a hobby (unless your riding a horse with dogs) and therefore people who hunt tend to be again, farmers or pest control (think deer culls).  there are not many i can think of that do it recreationally as we lack the space or the big game to hunt on this island.  there are no week long hikes through the wilderness and animals to live off of.  a weeklong hike would probably result in you stumbling through hundreds of farms and dozens of villages, this is a very tamed land nature wise.  the best your gonna get is maybe to go on a shoot for pheasent (have looked, bloody expensive). 

My mate does pheasant shooting, expensive hobby for sure. However i agree with your premise hunting in the UK isn't as big as the US or in Europe. 

6 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Think it’s safe to say we’ve all reached the point where you’ve got your fore and against voters and they will never change there minds In this thread . I see absolutely no reason for anyone in this country to own an AR of any sort , you can’t hunt with it , there’s probably less than 10 public access ranges in the country you could fire it at and you certainly couldn’t have it out on display in your own home , so what is the point of wanting it ? If you want one in your hands that badly then buy a systema or some other ‘simulator’ gun , they feel and look identical to the real McCoy .

you can’t ban or control knives it’s just not possible , give me a butter knife that couldn’t cut paper with and I 100% guarantee I will return it to you in less than an hour sharp enough to shave with . So all knives are banned and everyone eats with plastic spoons , guess what all the criminals now start carrying home made shanks Instead . Few years ago ophthalmology in my local hospital had a run on prisoners being admitted from The local ‘land of stripy sunshine’ with the prongs from plastic forks stuck in the eyes and then snapped off , turned out the nick had had a massive clean up operation looking for improvised weapons and this was the result of that .

Man is inventive , if you take one way of hurting his fellow man away from him he will just invent another . So why let him have ones we know do the job very effectively when he really has no reason to have it ? 

Yeah i think you're absolutely right, some will be for some against however other things we will whole heartedly agree on. I'm very clear that the laws in this country won't ever change to loosen gun control and will only get tighter as time goes on. My argument really stems from the erosion of freedoms we have and laws that are created to protect us from evils doers end up hurting law abiding people more. Guns yeah if they banned them all so what we can carry on with out them what about the lunatic with a CYMA MP5 who robs his local post office or the Lad with his Glock 17 using it the park to impress his mates. Before long they will be coming for us.

[kasaran]

3 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said:

Soviet Bloc countries erred on the side of caution and we called them undemocratic.

theres other reasons to call them undemocratic.  and i dont see how comparisons to Soviet or even modern Russia are relivant here?  they were an occupying force, claiming another country, of course uprisings were a concern and happened in many places.  again, we lack the unease at our government that makes the prospect of an armed militia appealing.  and unless your scottish, you i assume dont feel that westminster is opressing you (execpt for the ability to own military hardware it seems)

 

8 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said:

 

I would readily admit its not but if you ban knives then you haven't got knives or guns so problem solved? Probably not because the bad guys would fashion knives or 3d print guns.

 

so by that logic lets give up? open the flood gates? have some purge like state of being where everyone on a whim can own and brandish any sort of weapon of any sort of capability?  i dont see how this is a point in support of anything? just nihilism as to the futility that bad guys will find a way

[Lozart]

11 hours ago, GenuineGerman said:

I personally don’t think saying that banning alcohol or Smoking is puerile and my reason being the following. I should say that smoking is self inflicted and would completely agree on that however I think with alcohol it’s a different argument. Let’s take guns out of argument briefly 39% of the 516,000 odd violent crimes last year in England and Wales where alcohol related so for me there is an argument to for banning alcohol as  one third of people who commit Violent crimes under the influence of alcohol. Bearing in mind this is violent crime not drink driving or just being drunk in public. 
 

 

I think it's worth pointing out the UK definition of "violent crime" here https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/violent-crime#:~:text=Violent crime covers a variety,and corrosive substances like acid.

 

This is something that comes up time and again in the UK vs USA debate on guns. The US definition of violent crime is far narrower and more specific https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/crimes/violent-crime#:~:text=In a violent crime%2C a,and impact of violent crimes.

 

Yes, the idea that 39% of violent crimes involve alcohol is a frightening statistic but you need to factor into that how many of those "violent crimes" are street scuffles or just bad language and threats. No actual harm needs to be caused for a common assault charge! Now, granted there is a good argument to say that if weapons (be they firearms or bladed) get involved then the consequence of those drunken arguments will escalate, the fact that they don't escalate shows how few people feel the need to go out tooled up.

This is also an interesting read https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020

 

Particularly telling is the percentages vs absolute numbers; in reference to the number of homicides the increase is stated as 10%, unless you exclude the 39 immigrants found dead in a lorry in which case it drops to 3%. The fact that 39 deaths can have that great in impact on the overall increase in deaths shows that actually we have quite a low rate of homicide. The media would present you with a "200% increase in xxx" if the total number went from 1 to 2 so be careful with the statistics. They will always be manipulated to fit the narrative.

[colinjallen]

1 hour ago, Lozart said:

The media would present you with a "200% increase in xxx" if the total number went from 1 to 2 so be careful with the statistics. They will always be manipulated to fit the narrative.

That would be very poor reporting as it is a 100% increase.

[Lozart]

1 minute ago, colinjallen said:

That would be very poor reporting as it is a 100% increase.

 

 

My point exactly!

[Dogsbody100]

1 hour ago, kasaran said:

 

for every 1 happy ending for the 'good guy with a gun' story there are dozens or hundreds more where there was no good guy or it back fired on them.  imagine if the initial guy didnt have a gun? would this have gone down the same way?

 

Again, just like police and buses, occasionally they do manage to be where they are needed, but thats far from most often

 

i know its an extreme and unrelated but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-24457031 does not mean everyone should be able to fly a place with next to no training.  he was lucky.  the survivors from that attack were lucky.  and im sure the pro gun lobby was all GOOD GUY WITH GUN HERO as opposed to saying 'maybe putting guns into everyones hands so easily isnt a good thing...'  perhaps those who were killed and their family may have a different perspective?

You’re right that is an extremely unrelated story, in fact I know it well and remember the raf sea king crew that talked him down, great story (if I’m recalling the right one!).

 

I really can’t see where we’re going with it though, how does that advocate for everyone flying a plane with no training? That was an unfortunate set of circumstances and the guy that landed the plane was a novice with no experience. It could have been very different. 

 

Williford on the other hand was a licensed gun owner and was absolutely trained and had all the correct credentials for the weapon he had. 
 

Nowhere does that advocate for ‘everyone’ having a gun either incidentally.

 

The point was that sometimes a good guy with a gun makes a difference and indeed if googled the fact bears itself out in American states that allow open or concealed carry. 
 

Does this mean ‘give everyone a gun’? Of course not, no ones saying that. However with correct checks and balances in place it’s a viable concept. 
 

You don’t want a gun? Great, don’t have one, no ones forcing you but some do for sporting purposes, I used to and can attest to its good effect on discipline and even relaxation can you believe. 

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Dogsbody100 said:

With regards to the whole ‘good guy with a gun’ thing, see what you think of this 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

And another good guy with a gun, school armed security who ran away when the reason he had a gun occurred:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48521988
 

 

Better results have occurred when we have good guys with a Narwhal tusk and fire extinguisher, or good guys with harsh words:

“Don’t come here” or  “You ain’t no Muslim, bruv”

 

https://youtu.be/7gMJBQoHJ4E

 

 

 

 

Somewhere out there is footage of experiments of ‘good guy with gun’ scenarios, they mostly resulted in more casualty’s

 

Having a gun in the right place at the right time is one thing, you need to be able to use it properly in a stressful situation. 

 

[GenuineGerman]

2 minutes ago, kasaran said:

theres other reasons to call them undemocratic.  and i dont see how comparisons to Soviet or even modern Russia are relivant here?  they were an occupying force, claiming another country, of course uprisings were a concern and happened in many places.  again, we lack the unease at our government that makes the prospect of an armed militia appealing.  and unless your scottish, you i assume dont feel that westminster is opressing you (execpt for the ability to own military hardware it seems)

im not specifically talking about soviet or Russians what im saying is the the SED in East German decided they did think people were going to come back to East Germany after taking a trip to the west so they decided to build a massive wall, man it with armed guards .just to err on the side of caution. To me erring on the side of caution is totally undemocratic and criminalises whole populations.