Cunning or Cheating?

[Speedbird_666]

I managed to pull off a dead mans walk on Wednesday, walked completely around the opposition (easy to do at Ground Zero), lit 6 up before they noticed my armband colours.

 

I wouldn't normally do it, but the game was at a stalemate, and no one was really bothered about playing the objective, so I thought 'fuck it', stood up and went for a nice little stroll. Kept my gun down, head up and walked with enough nonchalance that nobody batted an eyelid or fired a round in my direction.

 

Shady? Probably. But if dicks can run around the site shining Green Lasers into kids eyes and still be within the site rules, I figured 'why not'.

 

 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

if you went around them isn't that just a standard flanking maneuver?

[MiK]

Heheheh not really shady TBH as the Hamster says a standard flanking manoeuvre but I would have dropped a couple of flash bangs and fired off like a crazy person shouting in full suicide bomber mode

Edited June 4, 2021 by MiK

[Speedbird_666]

9 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

if you went around them isn't that just a standard flanking maneuver?

 

Probably wasn't within the 'spirit' of that particular game (I was a defender of a firebase) but no limits were set in terms of boundaries for either teams (GZ is fucking mahoosive).

 

One bloke I shot was like 'are you supposed to be this far away from your base' - my response was that we were not told that we had to stay close to it during the briefing, to which he reluctantly agreed.

 

That, and the opposition team could clearly see me walking around, but decided not to shoot in my direction due to my demeanor, thinking I was out of the game.

 

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

I think it's fine, as long as you never, ever complain about being lit up like a Christmas tree the nanosecond that your hand wavers one tenth of a degree away from fully vertical. Ever.

[Adolf Hamster]

17 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

That, and the opposition team could clearly see me walking around, but decided not to shoot in my direction due to my demeanor, thinking I was out of the game.

 

hmmm, sounds like that's a bit over the line for my liking.

[Speedbird_666]

1 minute ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

hmmm, sounds like that's a bit over the line for my liking.

 

Maybe.

 

But that's the point of a Dead Mans Walk.

 

I stood up and started walking, that's all. Never shouted 'hit' or so much as twitched my arm upwards. Just walked for a bit, was ignored by the other team, I shot some of them, then they shot me.

 

I was within the site and game rules at all times. No set boundaries for attackers or defenders, no requirement for me to stay with the objective as a defender.

 

Like I say - I wouldn't normally do it - it's not really within the 'spirit' of the game, but given the attitude of the players (on both teams) and staff during the day and some unsavory incidents in the morning, I gave up giving a shit.

 

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Wolfie said:

Is this the reason I got peppered several times whilst having one hand in the air (holding my gun aloft) and walking back to spawn? This sport is based on honesty. If you're going to use tactics like this. Expect other players to not beleive you and keep shooting till you leave the play area. As you can guess... I'm absolutely against this type of thing and if the site allowed it. I would find another site. Its killing the sport for others.

As you had your hand up then they don’t have the excuse.

 

People should use their eyes

[Adolf Hamster]

23 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

I stood up and started walking, that's all. Never shouted 'hit' or so much as twitched my arm upwards. Just walked for a bit, was ignored by the other team, I shot some of them, then they shot me.

 

the demeanour is the thing, if you're giving the impression that you're not in-play, for all they knew maybe you'd had a dead battery/ran out of ammo/other reason to leave the site and did you the courtesy of not peppering you as you left.

 

23 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Like I say - I wouldn't normally do it - it's not really within the 'spirit' of the game, but given the attitude of the players (on both teams) and staff during the day and some unsavory incidents in the morning, I gave up giving a shit.

 

at the risk of turning this into a wider debate, and acknowledging i'm as much a perpetrator of the *ahem* "amended" playstyle in response to others playing (usually involving the selector lever), this is a big problem in airsoft in general.

 

i've seen plenty of characters who, for example, will play perfectly honestly up until their first "non hit-taker" whereupon they immediately don their own plot armour and add to the issue, opening the door for others with a higher bullshit tolerance to start considering the option.

 

it's why it can only take a couple of arseholes to completely ruin a game day- because otherwise decent players will resort to indecent tactics in response, multiplying out until the end result is an uncontrollable shit-show.

[Just Joe]

On 31/10/2020 at 11:33, Cr0-Magnon said:

What next though? Hiding your ARMBAND, because hey the marshal didn't say we COULDN'T!? 

Going back a few pages here but! 
Had an incident at pheonix airsoft a few weekends back. A gent did a dad mans walk on our section of the team holding a key area down. I saw him approaching and thought nothing of him, he was coming from the direction in which we had a couple players left. Walking towards us gun just held very lazily across his chest.

Anyway, he cleared the whole area out which lead to a big shift in momentum in the game. 

Whatever.

Spoke to him at the next games briefing. He openly told me he was using his Mp44 to cover up his armband. Was okay with the situation up until that point. 

Dickmove and I'm sure most people would say that too.

[Cr0-Magnon]

28 minutes ago, Just Joe said:

did a dad mans walk

 

Holding his lower back and making terrible puns?

 

I just think seeing as we're not actually killing each-other, we have to make it very obvious if we're in the game or not.

[Speedbird_666]

37 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

the demeanour is the thing, if you're giving the impression that you're not in-play, for all they knew maybe you'd had a dead battery/ran out of ammo/other reason to leave the site and did you the courtesy of not peppering you as you left.

 

But again Herr Hamster, that's the point of a dead mans walk -  make the other player(s) think that you are not in play, but not do anything that directly contravenes the rules.

 

It was an issue in Paintball for a while, it's actually expressly forbidden in many Tournament rules.

 

In my defense, at no stage did I try to cover my armbands (that is a pretty shit thing to do) and the attackers had infinite respawns, so at worst they were back in the game after 3-4 mins. Indeed it was the first player that I shot on my 'walk' that got me a few minutes later.

 

But I agree with your point about the downward spiral of bad behaviour. A good day can be ruined by the actions of a few, making 'good' players do things they would never do under normal circumstances.

 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

1 minute ago, Speedbird_666 said:

But again Herr Hamster, that's the point of a dead mans walk -  make the other player(s) think that you are not in play, but not do anything that directly contravenes the rules.

 

that's the whole debate in this thread- wether it's a tactic that should be used.

 

my issue with it, is say later on someone gets a dead battery and has to walk off, next thing you know they're getting lit up because everyone remembers the shenanigans you pulled earlier and assumes this guy is doing the same thing.

 

i don't have an issue with performing the flanking maneuvre, as you say it wasn't restricted in the game rules, hell if it had been me i'd probably have been sprinting (ok, "tactical waddling") out the front gate and finding a sneaky hiding spot the moment the whistle blew.

 

the issue i have is in intentionally betraying people's trust in a game that relies on trust.

 

8 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

But I agree with your point about the downward spiral of bad behaviour. A good day can be ruined by the actions of a few, making 'good' players do things they would never do under normal circumstances.

 

indeed, it's a very human problem and no site is immune, it's what's been really pushing me out of the hobby lately as there's just no consistency, can't rely that the thing you do to have some fun and unwind won't end up doing precisely the opposite.

[Tank423]

3 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

that's the whole debate in this thread- wether it's a tactic that should be used.

 

my issue with it, is say later on someone gets a dead battery and has to walk off, next thing you know they're getting lit up because everyone remembers the shenanigans you pulled earlier and assumes this guy is doing the same thing.

 

 

 

Isn't it common practice to call yourself out and make it very clear you are not in the game when you have an issue that stops you playing so you don't get lit up walking out of the game zone?

[Adolf Hamster]

4 minutes ago, Tank423 said:

 

Isn't it common practice to call yourself out and make it very clear you are not in the game when you have an issue that stops you playing so you don't get lit up walking out of the game zone?

 

it is, exactly as common a practice as not having your hand up the whole way back to the safe zone and instead relying on people seeing you're not walking the same as you would if you were playing.

 

 

[Tackle]

15 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

it is, exactly as common a practice as not having your hand up the whole way back to the safe zone and instead relying on people seeing you're not walking the same as you would if you were playing.

 

 

For example, Think about any number of war films, those that are directly in contact, frontline or middle of a firefight, they're all gonna move tactically, whereas those films that portray people waaaaay behind enemy lines, say spies or disguised commandos, they're gonna be as nonchalant as fuck, like "chill dawg, course I'm meant to be here" etc.

Thing about Airsoft is, we generally don't do spy objectives etc, 99.99% it's about pure combat & the tactical phase leading up to contact, usually in daylight, so sneaky mooching, pretending your something your not isn't an acceptable option.

IMHO🤔

[Tommikka]

25 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

it is, exactly as common a practice as not having your hand up the whole way back to the safe zone and instead relying on people seeing you're not walking the same as you would if you were playing.

 

 

It’s in the generally recognised rules that if you are out that you raise your hand, and if you have taken yourself out due to a problem you raise your hand.

It is common to drop your hand while wandering along, but you ought to raise it when you encounter players, or  call out ‘dead player coming through’ etc especially when going towards a firefight etc where you might get shot as soon as you are seen

 

Without your hand up you accept that you may get shot.

Players who chose not to shoot a player then get caught out should not be taking it out on everyone else later. If in doubt they should shot the unknown potentially live player - not rip into them because they got their knickers in a twist once before 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

10 minutes ago, Tackle said:

For example, Think about any number of war films, those that are directly in contact, frontline or middle of a firefight, they're all gonna move tactically, whereas those films that portray people waaaaay behind enemy lines, say spies or disguised commandos, they're gonna be as nonchalant as fuck, like "chill dawg, course I'm meant to be here" etc.

Thing about Airsoft is, we generally don't do spy objectives etc, 99.99% it's about pure combat & the tactical phase leading up to contact, usually in daylight, so sneaky mooching, pretending your something your not isn't an acceptable option.

IMHO🤔

 

also worth noting that spies generally don't receive the favorable treatment that regular soldiers do when they get caught....

 

6 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

It’s in the generally recognised rules that if you are out that you raise your hand, and if you have taken yourself out due to a problem you raise your hand.

It is common to drop your hand while wandering along, but you ought to raise it when you encounter players, or  call out ‘dead player coming through’ etc especially when going towards a firefight etc where you might get shot as soon as you are seen

 

Without your hand up you accept that you may get shot.

 

i can see the point you're trying to make, but as tackle pointed out better than i can there's a lot of body language that goes into it.

 

sure if your hand isn't up (or sometimes even if it is- terrain dependent) you might expect to catch the odd round to the noggin while wandering across a live play area, hell even marshals get the occasional ping despite the high vis.

 

11 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Players who chose not to shoot a player then get caught out should not be taking it out on everyone else later. If in doubt they should shot the unknown potentially live player - not rip into them because they got their knickers in a twist once before 

 

and this is the crux of the matter- do we want to open up on literally anyone who isn't hand in air yelling dead man walking every 3 seconds or do we want to have some judgement in the matter that someone who's acting the common practice of being dead is in fact dead (or at least, not playing)

[Tommikka]

18 minutes ago, Tackle said:

 

Thing about Airsoft is, we generally don't do spy objectives etc, 99.99% it's about pure combat & the tactical phase leading up to contact, usually in daylight, so sneaky mooching, pretending your something your not isn't an acceptable option.

IMHO🤔

This does depend, and should be taken into account by the organisers.  
 

No matter what the organisers should be establishing the rules at the start.  Even with a regular crowd there may be one new person, or among the regulars playing the same game every week each individual might think a particular rule exists or doesn’t, and everything is fine until that situation occurs between two players who think the rules apply to it differently

 

For the events I organise we encourage sneaky play and explicitly allow dead man walking, but in one of my game formats I do not allow dead man walking.  This means I have always provided a full scenario guide including the rule set, after a short while I added a single page rule summary, and we always cover them in the brief

[#blackadder]

If this becomes more prevalent then these will be mandatory :-https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294185829366?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338365712&toolid=20006&customid=EB6004199&

[Adolf Hamster]

31 minutes ago, #blackadder said:

If this becomes more prevalent then these will be mandatory :-https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294185829366?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338365712&toolid=20006&customid=EB6004199&

 

indeed a simple solution to the problem.

 

problem is, at least for the sites i play at, nobody has a bloody clue that they exist or what they mean.

[Speedbird_666]

35 minutes ago, #blackadder said:

If this becomes more prevalent then these will be mandatory :-https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294185829366?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338365712&toolid=20006&customid=EB6004199&

 

I think dead rags are a good idea. I have a couple as free gifts from TG. They only take a couple of seconds to re-pack, but remove any ambiguity when it comes to dead players.

 

It would certainly kill off dead men's walks - no dead rag showing - light em up, no arguments.

[MiK]

49 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

I think dead rags are a good idea. I have a couple as free gifts from TG. They only take a couple of seconds to re-pack, but remove any ambiguity when it comes to dead players.

 

It would certainly kill off dead men's walks - no dead rag showing - light em up, no arguments.

 

101% agree - seems that this sneaky way is common place 

[Shamal]

1 hour ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

I think dead rags are a good idea. I have a couple as free gifts from TG. They only take a couple of seconds to re-pack, but remove any ambiguity when it comes to dead players.

 

It would certainly kill off dead men's walks - no dead rag showing - light em up, no arguments.

I will only use a dead rag if it has died of natural causes! 👍

[MiK]

1 hour ago, Shamal said:

I will only use a dead rag if it has died of natural causes! 👍

AKA Bodybag !!