Joule Creep

[Sacarathe]

3 minutes ago, callumbagshaw said:

I agree that sites should take joule creep into consideration but I've never even been to a site that checks your eye pro is up to scratch, never mind calculating a slight increase in muzzle velocity.

 

Seems a bit daft for a marshal to be using time up calculating velocity when the root of all of this is keeping players safe and marshals aren't even checking that eye pro is capable of taking a hit!

 

The mall does, I've seen them confiscate eye pro and test it (and wreck it).

[callumbagshaw]

14 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

 

The mall does, I've seen them confiscate eye pro and test it (and wreck it).

Maybe some of the northern sites should take note.

[AndyDynamic]

I was recently at a very popular site - I won't say which one in case it was just a mistake - but when chronoing the marshal did not ask me what weight of BB I was using. 

 

Normally I chrono with 0.2g and I use 0.25g because I always thought this was the correct way, and on this instance I had left 0.25 in the mag and was surprised to see my FPS lower than normal (303fps as opposed to around 330). But I could've been using 0.3s for all he knew.

 

I was a little puzzled by that and also a little concerned.

[callumbagshaw]

17 minutes ago, AndyDynamic said:

I was recently at a very popular site - I won't say which one in case it was just a mistake - but when chronoing the marshal did not ask me what weight of BB I was using. 

 

 Normally I chrono with 0.2g and I use 0.25g because I always thought this was the correct way, and on this instance I had left 0.25 in the mag and was surprised to see my FPS lower than normal (303fps as opposed to around 330). But I could've been using 0.3s for all he knew.

 

I was a little puzzled by that and also a little concerned.

 

I'm always concerned that marshals don't ACTUALLY CHECK the bb weight pre-crono anyway, they just ask.

We all know Airsoft is a game of honor and honesty, hopefully players are always honest about what weight bb they're using - but we've all seen non-hit taking all to often, so we know just how "honest" our little community is.... 

[Sacarathe]

23 minutes ago, AndyDynamic said:

I was a little puzzled by that and also a little concerned.

 

And you're right to be. 

 

You might point out to that site that people could be using illegal (automatic) guns, and note that if the police stopped by....

[AndyDynamic]

52 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

 

And you're right to be. 

 

You might point out to that site that people could be using illegal (automatic) guns, and note that if the police stopped by....

 

I will certainly mention it to the organisers if it happens again, it could've simply been a one-off. We were being outranged quite a lot, and yes I accept there are many things that can affect range, but it does make you think if some are stretching the rules a little.

 

[Rogerborg]

If sites aren't putting BBs in themselves, then there's little point in them doing chronoing.

 

Big ups to the Depot.  They always put in their own BBs, and test and tag every gun.  The marshals do actively check for tags and re-run chrono tests during the game - I got checked twice on Sunday.

 

The site limit there is 0.25g, so it's fairly reasonable to test with 0.2g.  Where they're taking it on trust is that nobody is slipping 0.5g into their HPAs.

 

 

6 hours ago, AndyDynamic said:

Urban Assault has a strict 400FPS 0.2g limit on Snipers [...] So that means the Joule limit is 1.49

 

With respect, I'd say that the site limit there is 400fps with 0.2g.  If they meant to specify a Joule limit, they could specify a Joule limit.

 

I wish that wasn't the case.  They should specify Joules, and should test with heavy BBs.  But if shoulds were horses, beggars would ride.

[Seany.exe]

Not sure what the argument is tbh.

 

Just set the chrono to the weight you're using and switch the output to joules. Stop thinking about FPS entirely.

 

Anyone willing to use JC to get an "advantage" is just being a dick.

 

What was the first rule again?

[Gtech]

For anyone who struggles to understand why could Joule Creep matters then  picture this.

1. In one hand I have a bath sponge, the other holds a brick.
2. I throw them both at your head, at the same speed (fps)
3. Which one hurts more and consequently retains more energy (joules)?

As this example shows, the speed of an item thrown, is irrelevant until you consider the weight of it.

 

This is why FPS is outdated and highly inaccurate unless you're all using the same weight BBs (like in CQB)

 

I've long spoken about the importance of switching to Joules to airsoft sites, most of them don't understand the concept or switch back to their insurance paperwork which still defines FPS (From the paintball industry). With the increase of HPA systems, and with certain bolt action rifles having larger air volumes, joule creep can give significant advantage and pose a higher risk to those who are unaware.

 

The photo I've attached shows a perfect example, 

• Let me remind you that in the UK most sites only allow 2.32j for bolt actions (500fps on 0.2g) but the law is 2.5j (519 on 0.2g)
• In the top left box we see a sniper rifle chrono at 497fps on a 0.2g - this is entirely site legal and comes in at 2.3Joules.
• However, in the top right photo you will see that when they switched to 0.4g, the fps only dropped to 417fps which equates to 3.23J. (This is like being hit with a 590fps on a 0.2g)
• Note: The bottom photos show his adjusted weights to remove the advantage and stick within the limits.

 

To resolve that, you chrono on the weight you intend to use. 

It's safer, fairer and most importantly it's now the measurement used by law.

(Police & Crime Act from May 2017 defines our limits in joules)

 

https://airsoftnation.co.uk/stop-fps/

https://airsoftnation.co.uk/fps-calculator/ (This is for legal limits, and not specifically site limits due to the fact they're not universal)

 

[AndyDynamic]

2 hours ago, Gtech said:

The photo I've attached shows a perfect example, 

• Let me remind you that in the UK most sites only allow 2.32j for bolt actions (500fps on 0.2g) but the law is 2.5j (519 on 0.2g)
• In the top left box we see a sniper rifle chrono at 497fps on a 0.2g - this is entirely site legal and comes in at 2.3Joules.
• However, in the top right photo you will see that when they switched to 0.4g, the fps only dropped to 417fps which equates to 3.23J. (This is like being hit with a 590fps on a 0.2g)
• Note: The bottom photos show his adjusted weights to remove the advantage and stick within the limits.

 

That is a fantastic example, ouch 3.23j is going to hurt! Especially those that like to stretch the distance of MED - but lets not go down that rabbit hole.

[Seany.exe]

Aye sticking to "FPS" to measure power sucks. My main site (Worthing Airsoft, formerly AEG worthing) switched to joules a while back, chronod on the ammo you're using, every gun tested and tagged before the day starts and will test you again if theres any suspicion.

 

I haven't personally seen a single problem with people complaining about hot weapons. Though i'm sure it's happened lol.

 

Personally, we can discuss it till we're blue in the face and ready to slap a bitch. But it should be down to the sites itself to ensure that correct/accurate readings are taken to keep stuff within the site limits.

[Adolf Hamster]

The problem with joule testing is that your relying on a players honesty in terms of the weight they're using. I've heard plenty of chatter at certain sites in the line for the chrono along the lines of "yeah she puts out 328, on .3's" when the site limit is 1j.

 

At least with the .2@328 the site can if needed pop some ammo of a known weight in the gun and joule creep aside it'll confirm any suspicions true or false. Although i suppose you could do the same thing with whatever weight they're claiming to use.

 

Of course this is assuming the site has anything like a reasonable attitude to chrono'ing guns properly, which is very variable, some sites i've been to have never chrono'd anyone ever, some only chrono strangers (quelle surprise when the regulars are all using very spicy guns), and some chrono everyone but dont bother to ask about bb weight.

[Seany.exe]

Well, the entire sport is an honor system, if people are gonna lie about the weight BB they're using they're likely to play like complete cunts. At which point they will be called out and very likely chronod again where they will get caught ou and very likely banned.

 

So yeah sticking to fps in any aspect is just a bad call :)

 

But then i've not played too many sites. The ones I have (Worthing, the mall and a place over in lewes that is closed now) where all pretty hot on chronoing etc so I can't say i've ever come across a site lax on power limits

 

[Rogerborg]

8 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

The problem with joule testing is that your relying on a players honesty in terms of the weight they're using

 

Which is why sites should provide their own BBs, and they should be 0.4g+.

 

Would anyone be shocked if I said that I've played at a site where I never saw anyone being chronoed, can't recall limits even being mentioned during briefings in either fps or Joules, and sometimes a chrono wasn't even put out for players to self test with?

 

I put a "500fps" spring in my MB-03.  If I hadn't gone and asked for use of a chrono, nobody on site, including myself, would have discovered that it was shooting 600 fps with 0.2g, or 3.33J before creep.

 

Some degree of trust is necessary, but you can have too much of a good thing.

[Gtech]

If they can Chrono 2800 players at NAF with their own weights on a Friday Night/Saturday morning, it shouldn't take too much effort for a site to put in the same amount of effort.

As soon as Insurance Companies catch up, it will be changed. For sites who don't chrono or check thoroughly, they're essentially uninsured in the event of a screwup. In addition to that, they're probably likely to be removed from UKARA as an approved site since they do have a set of standards (like having valid insurance) to join.

[Sacarathe]

1 hour ago, Wo1f said:

Chrono via fps on .20 as doing it by joules essentially restricts BB weight and the point of a well tuned/ upgrades gun. 350 for full auto, 450 DMR and 500 sniper. MED for DMR and sniper 20m

 

Interesting interesting. 

 

Care to elaborate on this in the Joule creep thread?

 

I'm guessing you don't realise that when someone is chronographed on an arbitrary high weight such as 0.30 or 0.40 etc they can still use lighter ammo? And it doesn't really matter what their hop was set for either. 

 

As long as the site uses the player's BB weight or rounds up to 0.3, 0.4 or 0.5 there shouldn't be a problem with chrono'ing using slightly heavier ammo than the player intends to use. Unless the gun is highly customised to the point that the air volume is matched to the BB weight (and thus chrono with a higher weight BB than the player would use could in theory result in a lower energy reading).

 

[proffrink]

Does read like it's missed the point of Joule creep unfortunately. Switching to Joules is just the second step in removing it form the game and is an essentially pointless change by itself.

[Wo1f]

1 hour ago, Sacarathe said:

 

Interesting interesting. 

 

Care to elaborate on this in the Joule creep thread?

 

I'm guessing you don't realise that when someone is chronographed on an arbitrary high weight such as 0.30 or 0.40 etc they can still use lighter ammo? And it doesn't really matter what their hop was set for either. 

 

As long as the site uses the player's BB weight or rounds up to 0.3, 0.4 or 0.5 there shouldn't be a problem with chrono'ing using slightly heavier ammo than the player intends to use. Unless the gun is highly customised to the point that the air volume is matched to the BB weight (and thus chrono with a higher weight BB than the player would use could in theory result in a lower energy reading).

 

You’ve lost me I’m afraid, but I’ll give you an example in the hopes of clearing up what I mean..

 

in all of the sites that I play at, they chrono on fps. A max of 350 FPS measured on a .20. Now I have a standard TM mp7 (minus a hop rubber) that chronos at 340ish on a .20 which is about 1.13 joules? 

 

Now.. without making any modifications to the gun, if I put a .30 in, I would now have lower FPS as expected, but higher joules. 

 

If I played a site that measured off joules, just a change in B.B. weight could have me from  being perfectly fine to not allowed, limiting me to only use a .20 which massively limits my range and accuracy.

 

ive played at CQB sites week in and week out with a sub 350 FPS gun, but probably a  1.13+ joules gun as lots of other players do. Not once have I ever had an issue or someone has felt that my gun was hot. 

[proffrink]

They crono on ft/s with .2g BBs thought ask your site marshall and even they won't be silly enough to suggest that any ammo is fine, surely.

 

.2g at 350ft/s is a stand-in for a measurement in Joules that makes it easier for people to understand, but presenting lots in Joules - whilst being a good idea - still leaves the bigger question of Joule creep open.

 

Then again if one's at a site that lets snipers feed through .4g BBs at 500ft/s then those marshalls have a bigger problem to solve. I'm just not sure if I've heard of a site that doesn't imply/explicitly outline their limits on a .2g BB. I would be extremely surprised if they say 'oh any weight is fine' if you were to ask them.

 

Again I should stress that measuring Joules is a part of administering a solution to Joule creep (if this is what you're talking about), but not all of it (and will alone do nothing to help) but have a flick through this thread as there are some explain this and examples.

[Adolf Hamster]

10 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

You’ve lost me I’m afraid, but I’ll give you an example in the hopes of clearing up what I mean..

 

in all of the sites that I play at, they chrono on fps. A max of 350 FPS measured on a .20. Now I have a standard TM mp7 (minus a hop rubber) that chronos at 340ish on a .20 which is about 1.13 joules? 

 

Now.. without making any modifications to the gun, if I put a .30 in, I would now have lower FPS as expected, but higher joules. 

 

If I played a site that measured off joules, just a change in B.B. weight could have me from  being perfectly fine to not allowed, limiting me to only use a .20 which massively limits my range and accuracy.

 

ive played at CQB sites week in and week out with a sub 350 FPS gun, but probably a  1.13+ joules gun as lots of other players do. Not once have I ever had an issue or someone has felt that my gun was hot. 

 

 

except you are running hot, in a joule measuring site you'd be expected to meet 1.13 joules, meaning you'd need to either run a lower bb weight as you say, or modify your gun to make it within the accepted limits.

 

of course wether or not anyone has an issue with the energy your running is elementary, as it's down to the site to determine what they feel is an acceptable limit for their customers and the type of game you play. if enough players are in agreement that this slightly hotter gun is acceptable then the answer is to get the site to change it's limit to suit.

[Sacarathe]

27 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

in all of the sites that I play at, they chrono on fps. A max of 350 FPS measured on a .20. Now I have a standard TM mp7 (minus a hop rubber) that chronos at 340ish on a .20 which is about 1.13 joules? 

 

Now.. without making any modifications to the gun, if I put a .30 in, I would now have lower FPS as expected, but higher joules. 

 

 

I understand you, however it seems you do not understand me.  Which I can follow since I interchange between two systems frequentlt:

 

1. Chronograph with weight players would use, and
2. Chronograph at a higher [arbitrary, but more reliable] baseline than 0.2g.

 

Sticking with the latter for practical reasons would be to chrono'd on an arbitrary weight higher than 0.2g which would be a lot safer than with 0.2g, but in an ideal world people would be chrono'd with the weight they intend to use.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

 

If I played a site that measured off joules, just a change in B.B. weight could have me from  being perfectly fine to not allowed, limiting me to only use a .20 which massively limits my range and accuracy.

 

That's not how it works. A chrono fail would be a chrono fail. And this is why chrono with the weight a player intends to use is more practical than an arbitrary higher weight, but the better method is much more of a logistical burden.

 

If your gun passed chrono at 0.2g but failed at 0.3g one would hope the site would refuse to allow you to use it with any weight of BB. This is worse than your fears perhaps, but safer. But this outlines exactly why the other non arbitrary method is more desirable.

 

27 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

ive played at CQB sites week in and week out with a sub 350 FPS gun, but probably a  1.13+ joules gun as lots of other players do. Not once have I ever had an issue or someone has felt that my gun was hot. 

 

If everyone's gun is hot who would complain? 😛

 

https://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/

 

 

For AEGs shooting between 1 Joule and 1.14 Joule (0.2g 328-350) generally speaking chronographing with 0.2g works fine. 

 

For gas/co2/hpa guns and all guns intending to fire in the DMR and sniper roles it's just stupid to chrono on 0.2g.

[Wo1f]

5 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

 

except you are running hot, in a joule measuring site you'd be expected to meet 1.13 joules, meaning you'd need to either run a lower bb weight as you say, or modify your gun to make it within the accepted limits.

 

of course wether or not anyone has an issue with the energy your running is elementary, as it's down to the site to determine what they feel is an acceptable limit for their customers and the type of game you play. if enough players are in agreement that this slightly hotter gun is acceptable then the answer is to get the site to change it's limit to suit.

Except I’m not running hot at any site I play... they give you some .20’s at the chrono, tell you to shoot and if it’s under 350 you’re golden. If I then want to use a .25 or whatever that’s fine. If you are under the FPS LIMIT with a .20 that’s what matters and what I assume is stipulated in their insurance documents. 

 

I’ve never seen a northern site measure in joules. One because it would take bloody forever to chrono 120 people all on different BB weights, and two because it then defeats the point of owning anything but a standard combat machine. How do you think all of these KOA recoils get their range?

[Sacarathe]

9 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

Except I’m not running hot at any site I play... they give you some .20’s at the chrono, tell you to shoot and if it’s under 350 you’re golden. If I then want to use a .25 or whatever that’s fine. If you are under the FPS LIMIT with a .20 that’s what matters and what I assume is stipulated in their insurance documents. 

 

I’ve never seen a northern site measure in joules. One because it would take bloody forever to chrono 120 people all on different BB weights, and two because it then defeats the point of owning anything but a standard combat machine. How do you think all of these KOA recoils get their range?

 

Ah but now we're swimming in laws vs morals territory: You're saying it's okay to use a hot gun if you get through the chronograph without cheating the site's rules?

 

Which I guess depends on whether you see hot guns as either unfair, or as a health and safety risk, I'm guessing the former? 😛 

 

To me these rules are for health and safety. And how long it takes to chronograph is an irrelevant consideration. 

 

[Wo1f]

7 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

.

If your gun passed chrono at 0.2g but failed at 0.3g one would hope the site would refuse to allow you to use it with any weight of BB. This is worse than your fears perhaps, but safer. But this outlines exactly why the other non arbitrary method is more desirable.

 

 

If everyone's gun is hot who would complain? 😛

 

https://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/

On that basis, every single gas blowback would be banned because of the way it works. You could be firing at 250fps on a .20 and still break your 1.13j limit with a really heavy BB. So even if my intention is to use a .20, you’re saying if you put a .30 in it and failed it I couldn’t use it? That’s ridiculous 😂 the only time your backwards way of measuring with a heavier than intended BB would be with an unoptimised AEG

 

What are you even talking about laws vs morals? THE RULES AT MY SITE MEASURE FPS WITH A .20. IF IM UNDER THEIR LIMIT THEN ITS NOT IN THE SITES EYES A HOT GUN, OR THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES, OR THE PLAYERS. How is that difficult to understand? 

 

Now if the sites you play play or work at want to measure with joules, then whoopdy do for you. Ours don’t.

 

Ive never known anybody be so smug and condescending and yet still feel the need to point out something with no relevance to me..

[Adolf Hamster]

21 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

Except I’m not running hot at any site I play... they give you some .20’s at the chrono, tell you to shoot and if it’s under 350 you’re golden. If I then want to use a .25 or whatever that’s fine. If you are under the FPS LIMIT with a .20 that’s what matters and what I assume is stipulated in their insurance documents. 

 

I’ve never seen a northern site measure in joules. One because it would take bloody forever to chrono 120 people all on different BB weights, and two because it then defeats the point of owning anything but a standard combat machine. How do you think all of these KOA recoils get their range?

 

you wouldn't need to chrono everyone, you have a chart up for the joule conversions for different bb weights, and keep a stock on hand to check if anyone's suspected of lying about what weight they're running.

 

cheating the chrono, no matter how you do it, is still cheating the chrono. wether you run .3's and claim it's .2's, if you dial down your hpa, or whatever you do. like i said, if the majority of players are happy running hotter then the site can change it's limits, they are after all arbitrary for the most part.

 

i get it, we all want that edge, but there are lines we draw between what's acceptable and what isn't, otherwise this game would descent into everyone blasting away point blank with hpa's running 600fps@50rps