Osprey MK4 - Legal?

[Rogerborg]

^^^

That, basically.   Even in the context of goods that have been stolen, Theft Act 1968 S22 handling stolen goods requires "knowing or believing them to be stolen goods".

 

Everyone loves a good story about how their mate's uncle's cousin's lad got banged up for 50 years, but reminder, the topic is whether it's legal to buy Osprey MK4.

 

Apply the Clapham Omnibus test.  Would a typical member of the general public know whether any particular item of MOD kit has hit the surplus market yet?  Bear in mind that there is a surplus market, it's perfectly normal to buy ex MOD gear.  As an interested person, how would I even find out what's been sold on and what's not?  Where are the regulations, where is the list?

Buying from a retailer who is openly marketing an item would be a fairly strong argument that you didn't believe it to be stolen (even if it was).  Buying the exact same item out of a car boot behind a pub, well, not so much.

[Tackle]

51 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

^^^

That, basically.   Even in the context of goods that have been stolen, Theft Act 1968 S22 handling stolen goods requires "knowing or believing them to be stolen goods".

 

Everyone loves a good story about how their mate's uncle's cousin's lad got banged up for 50 years, but reminder, the topic is whether it's legal to buy Osprey MK4.

 

Apply the Clapham Omnibus test.  Would a typical member of the general public know whether any particular item of MOD kit has hit the surplus market yet?  Bear in mind that there is a surplus market, it's perfectly normal to buy ex MOD gear.  As an interested person, how would I even find out what's been sold on and what's not?  Where are the regulations, where is the list?

Buying from a retailer who is openly marketing an item would be a fairly strong argument that you didn't believe it to be stolen (even if it was).  Buying the exact same item out of a car boot behind a pub, well, not so much.

A very pertinent point, how to know what's fair game, you'd have to be a fairly anal stitchcounter to know at a glance what gen most modern kit is, never mind whether it's been released in to the public domain, I definitely wouldn't know.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

9 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

words

That's fine, but to clear up any misunderstanding:

 

On 08/03/2020 at 00:33, Rogerborg said:

Word counts: 

 

"Sold" / "sell" / "selling": 7 times

 

"Bought" / "own" / "owned": 0 times

 

Who has been prosecuted and convicted for buying and owning, rather than selling?

 

 

As GeorgePlaysAirsoft said this was genuinely a case of missing the woods for the trees; it's not about buying, or selling, it's knowing they're stolen goods. Andy from UCAP absolutely did commit an offense by buying the nods, it's just that the action of buying was packaged with the knowledge he was buying, then selling, stolen goods; buying and selling aren't mutually exclusive.

[Rogerborg]

Yes, this will be of great interest and concern to anyone here intending to engage in the systematic commercial purchase and resale of MOD goods that they know to be stolen. 

 

However, I don't much care about warning any such person off from the consequences of their actions, and in fact look forward to hearing that they've been placed on Cell Wing Jihadi at Her Majesty's Pleasure.

[Liam1992]

I've totally skipped most of this topic but the plates would be classed as ACTO and therefore illegal, I believe.

 

The cover, however, should be fair game .

[Rogerborg]

16 hours ago, Liam1992 said:

the plates would be classed as ACTO and therefore illegal, I believe

 

Where would we find the classification of ACTO, and for that matter, a definition of what it means?

 

Laws and offences aren't supposed to be secret.

[Tommikka]

16 hours ago, Liam1992 said:

I've totally skipped most of this topic but the plates would be classed as ACTO and therefore illegal, I believe.

 

The cover, however, should be fair game .

Pretty much yes - but not necessarily due to direct legislation.

 

EU regulations cover equipment with a ‘military purpose’ but there isn’t UK legislation.  (EU regulations do carry weight in the UK depending on their status as to being adopted or endorsed etc ......  and when we complete the transition may still apply depending upon the agreement and also what elements are brought into law)

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eu-legislation-and-uk-law

 

If someone really wants to pursue the matter then bodyarmour is highlighted within the following, but what level of legal restrictions there are for what levels of body armour could vary based on the reading of the complete relevant sections:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1583846978025&uri=CELEX:32009L0043#ntr3-L_2009146EN.01000101-E0003

 

 

The sale/purchase of military type equipment may be controlled but not necessarily illegal in itself.

 

ACTO covers ‘attractive to criminal and terrorist organisations’, this can be something that absolutely should not be available to the general public to something that is attractive to theft.  Airsofters, paintballers and collectors can be innocently interested in something, but other people could be more interested for other motives.

(There are also other ‘legitimate’ uses, for example the resurgence of body armour with wider use & development of Kevlar was due to the dangers experienced by pizza delivery guys - though if I felt the need to wear body armour to deliver pizza then I would opt for not delivering the pizza)

The ‘attractiveness’ of an item in the army can also just reflect its controls to minimise theft (and create an audit trail to identify that - as has been shown many things can end up being stolen - and people can get caught)

 

For Osprey, the chances are that there are legitimate genuine osprey vests out and about available for sale, but that current levels of protective inserts are less likely to be legitimate.  How they turned up to be available to the public would be the question.

To play airsoft though - there is a real question as to do you really need them? Why do you need Kevlar to protect yourself from a tiny plastic ball?  If you want your Osprey to ‘hang’ properly then this can be done with less weight and less expense, some foam, plastic card would do the job.

..... and then take yourself to one of the fogging threads because you’re sweating with all the extra weight and layers

22 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Where would we find the classification of ACTO, and for that matter, a definition of what it means?

 

Laws and offences aren't supposed to be secret.

I think not.

ACTO not being a legal / illegal list, but following the assumption that if controlled then it hasn’t followed a legal path out as opposed to a specific item being illegal.

 

Back to the situation of whether something is bought in the pub or publicly

(that doesn’t always mean that an item sold in the pub is illegal - it could just be cheap rubbish being pushed with a bit of ‘frisson’ ...... I remember when it was commonplace to be offered watches in motorway services ...... just cheap rubbish with a bit of patter)

[Zarrin]

20 hours ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Andy from UCAP absolutely did commit an offense by buying the nods, it's just that the action of buying was packaged with the knowledge he was buying, then selling, stolen goods; buying and selling aren't mutually exclusive.

 

I wasn't aware this happened.. just read up on it now, I suppose I was fairly inactive around 2016 as I was setting up my business at the time.

I sort of knew Andy when I first got into airsoft; his site at liphook was my first regular spot.. I went down one weekend with my mate Adam and we helped him build a couple of bunker, pill box type things.

Did TA2 with him as well. 

 

....Damn 😦

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

ACTO covers ‘attractive to criminal and terrorist organisations’

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38336192

 

"Some of the stolen items were on an official list of items Attractive to Criminal and Terrorist Organisations (ACTO)"

 

Can anyone find this list, official or otherwise?  As far as I can see from here, it's a label applied to specific items, which may or may not be collated in a list somewhere.  If it is, it's not trivial to find.

 

And if it has any consequences in law, especially for innocent purchasers, then it should be.  If it's not clear, one of my pet peeves is secret "gotchya" laws.

 

[hitmanNo2]

I wonder if the list is kept kind of secret in an attempt to not advertise what might be out there that would be of interest to criminals and terrorists if they were to do a little digging.

[Tackle]

24 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38336192

 

"Some of the stolen items were on an official list of items Attractive to Criminal and Terrorist Organisations (ACTO)"

 

Can anyone find this list, official or otherwise?  As far as I can see from here, it's a label applied to specific items, which may or may not be collated in a list somewhere.  If it is, it's not trivial to find.

 

And if it has any consequences in law, especially for innocent purchasers, then it should be.  If it's not clear, one of my pet peeves is secret "gotchya" laws.

 

Lol, I started to read it, my eyes started drooping after 20 seconds, reckon I'll save it for when I can't sleep at night 😴

 

Although the cynical side of me agrees its likely to be a top secret "gotcha" list, one that can be amended at the drop of a hat, probably when they can't get any other charges to stick 😏

[Tommikka]

27 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38336192

 

"Some of the stolen items were on an official list of items Attractive to Criminal and Terrorist Organisations (ACTO)"

 

Can anyone find this list, official or otherwise?  As far as I can see from here, it's a label applied to specific items, which may or may not be collated in a list somewhere.  If it is, it's not trivial to find.

 

And if it has any consequences in law, especially for innocent purchasers, then it should be.  If it's not clear, one of my pet peeves is secret "gotchya" laws.

 

 

17 minutes ago, hitmanNo2 said:

I wonder if the list is kept kind of secret in an attempt to not advertise what might be out there that would be of interest to criminals and terrorists if they were to do a little digging.

Terrorists & criminals don’t really need a list to know what they may be interested in.

 

A list isn’t going to be published.  If you google JSP & ACTO then you will get a reference to ACTO and accounting.

Just consider that an item that’s ‘attractive’ isn’t necessarily a super special ninja piece of kit, but perhaps just something worth stealing if it’s not too tied down 

1 minute ago, Tackle said:

Lol, I started to read it, my eyes started drooping after 20 seconds, reckon I'll save it for when I can't sleep at night 😴

 

Although the cynical side of me agrees its likely to be a top secret "gotcha" list, one that can be amended at the drop of a hat, probably when they can't get any other charges to stick 😏

If you can’t get theft / receiving stolen goods to stick then possession of a particular item just because it’s on a list isn’t going to be much use.

[Liam1992]

Appears I've triggered some interest with this whole ACTO thing. 

 

To my knowledge there isn't a defined list available to the public, and the contents listed within it (if it exists internally) contain all manner of items; NVG's, specific weapon ancillaries, comms equipment etc are all likely to be covered under ACTO. 

 

All ACTO equipment will be serialised and therefore auditable, in theory at least that makes it traceable to a Unit/Location. 

[hitmanNo2]

51 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Terrorists & criminals don’t really need a list to know what they may be interested in.

 

Just consider that an item that’s ‘attractive’ isn’t necessarily a super special ninja piece of kit, but perhaps just something worth stealing if it’s not too tied down

I beg to differ.  If there is a list of interesting stuff, someone might see something of note that is perhaps a bit unsecured and make off with it.  Something that perhaps they wouldn't have thought of stealing before.

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

If you can’t get theft / receiving stolen goods to stick then possession of a particular item just because it’s on a list isn’t going to be much use.

Hence why I said "the cynical side of me" & used the 😏 emoji, of course the word of law as to be applied, BUT having grown up (what do you mean I haven't 😜) in the "good old days", a time when anything can be made to stick, if your using the right "glue" lol, I don't doubt that the alleged "acto list' has some wriggle room for interpretation, especially when it comes to matters pertaining to national security & those who may wish to attack it.

 

obviously when I mentioned the "good old days", doesn't mean I supported some of the wholesale stitch-up jobs that occurred back then (think 60's/70's/80's), but in some rare cases I'm sure the end justified the means 🤔

 

Shit, reading this back, don't I use a lot of "speech marks" lol

[Tommikka]

ACTO really is a lot less special then people may think.

If you google it as I mentioned earlier you will find the publicly available versions of documents relating to stores accounting.

All forms of stores held by the MoD are subject to accounting processes and levels of security / locking up, getting tracked and signed for.

ACTO is just another classification, a ‘list’ could be as simple as a local list of items that somebody might be more interesting in stealing — and extra accounting processes and controls

 

If you want a list of shiney things in the MoD then that’s the NSN database which is all over the internet 

[AlphaBear]

17 hours ago, Tackle said:

Shit, reading this back, don't I use a lot of "speech marks" lol

 

I'll tell you what I want, what I really, really want.....

 

"An ACOG 4x32"... fat chance of getting a real one eh?

 

12 hours ago, Tommikka said:

ACTO really is a lot less special then people may think.

If you google it as I mentioned earlier you will find the publicly available versions of documents relating to stores accounting.

All forms of stores held by the MoD are subject to accounting processes and levels of security / locking up, getting tracked and signed for.

ACTO is just another classification, a ‘list’ could be as simple as a local list of items that somebody might be more interesting in stealing — and extra accounting processes and controls

 

If you want a list of shiney things in the MoD then that’s the NSN database which is all over the internet 

 

I googled it and found this as the first hit.. lol

 

"ACTO - Association for Counselling & Therapy Online. ACTO promotes, maintains, improves and advances online counselling and psychotherapy as a recognised method of therapeutic delivery within the mental health professions. ACTO is the association for therapists and counselling working online therapeutically."

[Tackle]

Lol, that would make sense, reckon most airsofters would be on THAT acto list somewhere 🤪

[Rogerborg]

18 hours ago, Tommikka said:

ACTO is just another classification

 

That's my interpretation from what I'm seeing.  It appears to be a not-for-sale label, and little else.  It means that you can't obtain them honestly, but that's neither here nor there to the theft - it's just as thefty to steal things that could have been sold on.

 

To be crystal clear, I fully agree with banging folk up for stealing MOD gear, see previous posts.  Or for stealing anything else, from anyone.  String 'em up, it's the only language they understand.

 

But the prosecution barking "It was on a list!  An official list!" is neither here nor there, especially if it's not a list (or a classification) which the thief or their customers would know or care about.  It's just theatrical table thumping to get a conviction or a tougher sentence.

 

And it leads to self-feeding tales about the official ACTO list which (I believe) has no particular significance in law, and doubly so for the purposes of this thread's question about what it's OK to purchase.  You can't very well come to a conclusion about the status of an object that you're intending to buy if it's being sold openly but is on a secret not-for-sale list.

[AlphaBear]

So where does this leave Grade 1/issued kit? Going back to the original discussion by the OP, is it legal to buy an Osprey Mk4? There are numerous Airsoft retailers selling Grade 1/Issued Osprey's on the internet.... so I assume list or no list the MOD know about them and is fine? 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, AlphaBear said:

is it legal to buy an Osprey Mk4

 

I've seen no evidence here that it's an offence in the UK, beyond acronym salad.

 

Seriously, if anyone can point at a UK statute, please do sing out.

[AlphaBear]

2 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I've seen no evidence here that it's an offence in the UK, beyond acronym salad.

 

Seriously, if anyone can point at a UK statute, please do sing out.

 

I can't sing but do great Karaoke after a few pints!

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, AlphaBear said:

So where does this leave Grade 1/issued kit? Going back to the original discussion by the OP, is it legal to buy an Osprey Mk4? There are numerous Airsoft retailers selling Grade 1/Issued Osprey's on the internet.... so I assume list or no list the MOD know about them and is fine? 

It’s legal

If it’s army surplus that’s been disposed of by the MoD then it’s legit

If it’s been pilfered from the QMs then it’s stolen goods

If you buy it from an army surplus shop then you can be fairly sure it’s not stolen

If the guy in the pub can offer you a better price on the other 50 from the back of his land rover then you could be about to receive stolen goods

The latest inserts to go into the osprey might have restrictions on their sale and be more unusual to find in an army surplus shop

[AlphaBear]

Fcuk me, some chap is selling protective ceramic plates on-line for the Mk4... used condition the advert says! I expect the MP will be on his case pretty shortly....

[RonLancs]

I remember on a tour when a unit member mid places a side arm (G17) and obviously faced severe consequences - a similar issue when faulty and UFS HMNVS was again mis placed and the soldier responsible was of a certain rank and there was no repercussions. 
 

Ultimately when a solider is de-kitted it’s up to the RQM or their staff to properly de kit a soldier - things like virtus body armour are taken into consideration along with respirators and other expensive serialised equipment. 
 

If it was a true offence and equally a risk to military security, then surely a crack down or monitory service would be in place enforcing particular rules and regulations.