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AshOnSnow

Osprey MK4 - Legal?

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Been reading up on the laws surrounding airsoft and thought I'd pose this question for debate:

 

"Is it legal to buy an Osprey MK4 armour cover?"

 

Not so much of a general "can you get away with it/do you really care?" thread, but a theoretical debate how the existing legislation applies to these kinds of questions in the context of airsoft in the UK. A brain tickler for you legal eagles ;)

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11 minutes ago, sonofsammo said:

Please forgive me for being dim, but why wouldn't it be?

EU Legislation restricting the possession of materials "designed or modified for military purpose", or designated "Current Military Item", including "protective garments, manufactured to military standards or specifications, or to their equivalents, and specially designed components therefor"

 

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13 minutes ago, AshOnSnow said:

EU Legislation restricting the possession of materials "designed or modified for military purpose", or designated "Current Military Item", including "protective garments, manufactured to military standards or specifications, or to their equivalents, and specially designed components therefor"

 

Oh dear. Well in that case, wouldn't most of our clothing and carrying systems be prohibited?

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6 minutes ago, sonofsammo said:

Oh dear. Well in that case, wouldn't most of our clothing and carrying systems be prohibited?

Well that's what I thought, but I think there are conflicting laws on this, so the question is, which legislation is supercedes the rest of them?

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The cover would be ok, it’s the armour inside that’s heading to dodgy territory

 

 

The source would matter on the basis of whether it’s legally got out to market

Old stuff coming out the back door of the qm to ebay and car boots is stolen, as it should be boxed and sold by the mod when full by it’s weight, then it makes its way to army surplus

 

When clothing is issued or exchanged there are certain items they should hand in, but the am may not bother to take it, certain items such as those that touch skin that aren’t taken back

The same applies to de-kitting when they leave

To a degree, depending on status when they leave some is meant to be kept for mobilisation 

Squaddies end up with wardrobes stuffed with extra kit

 

If you don’t have a garage full still in the wrappers, aren’t related to a qm and don’t have weapons or brand new trial then you’re fine

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It's illegal to have a taxi cab without a bail of hay in the boot, you can shoot a Welsh man on Shrewsbury bridge on a Sunday. These are old laws never updated as for your quotation which does say restrictions not prohibitions . You can sell MkIV Osprey as surplus, It is however frowned upon selling Kevlar and plates for them, as is current issue Respirators and MkVII helmets

Edited by TARGETSZONE.CO.UK
wrong wording

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11 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

EU Legislation

 

Stuffs given, zero.

 

Is there any UK primary legislation that creates an offence?

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4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Stuffs given, zero.

 

Is there any UK primary legislation that creates an offence?

 

Not that I'm aware of, however the key issue here is that the European Communities Act 1972 - which applies to the UK - grants EU law supremacy over UK law in the case of absence or conflict of national legislation.

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36 minutes ago, AshOnSnow said:

the key issue here is that the European Communities Act 1972 - which applies to the UK - grants EU law supremacy over UK law in the case of absence or conflict of national legislation.

 

Just blame Brexit ;)

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Guest scalawag

Here is my take on this, and it is just my take.

 

Its all about understanding that Osprey Mk4 is multifunctional.  

 

It is body armour, and it is a load carrying system.

 

The carrier with the pouches and other accessories can legally be sold as a load carrying system if the protective elements (plates and soft armour) have been removed.  

 

The sale of Oprey Mk4 with the plates and soft armour would be restricted as it would then be considered body armour.

Likewise selling the armour and plates separately would be restricted as their only real use would be to upgrade Osprey Mk4 or similar to Body armour.

 

So yes it is perfectly legal to sell just an Osprey Mk4 cover as you are selling it as a load carrying system and not as body armour. 

 

The legislation is in place from my understanding to restrict easy access to body armour and other such useful military gear by criminals etc...

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I own one and was under the impression that owning the cover is fine but not the plates. Can't see why on earth it would be illegal in the first place as there's tons of surplus kit you can buy without any issues. 

 

If not then arrest me now, coppers! 

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Being very pedantic, but body armour is not ‘designed or modified for military purpose’

It is designed for pizza delivery men

 

However, current levels of military body armour are pizza guy body armour  ‘modified for military purpose’, and before that it was literally armour and heavy duty flak jackets for aircrew etc

 

 

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5 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

 

Not that I'm aware of, however the key issue here is that the European Communities Act 1972 - which applies to the UK - grants EU law supremacy over UK law in the case of absence or conflict of national legislation.

It depends on what kind of ‘EU law’.

 

An EU Treaty or Regulation becomes valid across the EU once it’s signed up in the EU

(Not by the un-elected as per Bexit campaigns but with our elected UK MEPs representing us)

Not every regulation applies across the EU though

 

An EU Directive does not become valid without being ratified and passed through the member states legal process 

 

EU supremacy does cover conflicting legislation, but it does not cover absence (also depending on whether it’s a treaty/regulation/ directive etc).  Our own legislative process can override and take supremacy as well, the European Union Act 2011 overrides the European Community Act 1972

 

 

 

 

Irrespective of the current status under treaty/regulation/directive the Repeal Bill will bring almost all of them into law on our exit, the Department for Exiting the European Union have to sort that out

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Stuffs given, the square root of negative one.

 

The thread title is Fake News (very bad!).  Asking if something is "legal" in the UK is Kafkaesque.  If you can point at an Act of Parliament which defines an offence, we can talk.  Otherwise this is a very silly thread fretting over nothing.

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Guest scalawag
2 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Stuffs given, the square root of negative one.

 

The thread title is Fake News (very bad!).  Asking if something is "legal" in the UK is Kafkaesque.  If you can point at an Act of Parliament which defines an offence, we can talk.  Otherwise this is a very silly thread fretting over nothing.

Couldn't agree more Rogerborg.

 

I think it is a very confusing title because as per my last post Osprey Mk4 is multi purpose, so the question could be answered any number of ways depending on how the vest is configured for use when purchased.  

 

Bottom line is, if it is as openly on sale as empty Osprey Mk4 covers are then it is likely there is no law regarding its sale, or that their is such complacency about any related law that sellers are not bothered about being prosecuted and you can probably buy with impunity.

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2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

Stuffs given, the square root of negative one.

 

The thread title is Fake News (very bad!).  Asking if something is "legal" in the UK is Kafkaesque.  If you can point at an Act of Parliament which defines an offence, we can talk.  Otherwise this is a very silly thread fretting over nothing.

 

If you don’t like the thread, don’t waste your time on it. It was simply a platform for some good hearted debate over legal jurisdiction, under what definition an Osprey armour cover falls and in relation to which legislation or directive from which authority. Don’t go getting your knickers in a twist.

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I think it only really applies when actual armour is involved such as Kevlar plates etc. Aside from that, as long as it’s just a throw on rig/ PC with storage and no plates it is ok. If it weren’t not just airsofters would fall into the negative consequences surrounding this topic.

 

a bit like how you can have an RIF but you cannot buy one without UKARA, to have it in your vehicle and get stopped by police, without UKARA you can be wary the RIF would likely be convescated and destroyed (not guaranteed but likely).

 

you cannot use the latest issued combatant virtus helmet as once again, it’s Kevlar. At least that’s what I understand.

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1 hour ago, DMB1991 said:

I think it only really applies when actual armour is involved such as Kevlar plates etc. Aside from that, as long as it’s just a throw on rig/ PC with storage and no plates it is ok. If it weren’t not just airsofters would fall into the negative consequences surrounding this topic.

 

a bit like how you can have an RIF but you cannot buy one without UKARA, to have it in your vehicle and get stopped by police, without UKARA you can be wary the RIF would likely be convescated and destroyed (not guaranteed but likely).

 

you cannot use the latest issued combatant virtus helmet as once again, it’s Kevlar. At least that’s what I understand.

the legality has nothing to do with the armour . It's due to the fact that Virtus has not been put on the surplus market by the MOD so any you buy on ebay is stolen . Osprey MK4 and MK7 helmets were the same but have now both gone to disposal so can be purchased legally via disposal agents . In fact Osprey Mk4 is so plentiful you can pick them up for £10 each 

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How about some proper armour?

 

https://tanks-alot.co.uk/product/chieftain-tank/

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You can buy armour plates for warrior kit on uktactical, so don’t see how it would be unless, as stated above, it’s been stolen 

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10 hours ago, E21A said:

You can buy armour plates for warrior kit on uktactical, so don’t see how it would be unless, as stated above, it’s been stolen 

The ballistic plates themselves I don’t believe are sold off by MoD, for the obvious reason that you shouldn’t be buying used balllistic plates that you don’t know how they’ve been treated. Of course for airsoft it doesn’t really matter.

 

Level IV Armour is *technically* illegal to possess, at least for the next month and a bit. There’s EU legislation banning civilians from having it, but no UK prohibitions.

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4 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

The ballistic plates themselves I don’t believe are sold off by MoD, for the obvious reason that you shouldn’t be buying used balllistic plates that you don’t know how they’ve been treated. Of course for airsoft it doesn’t really matter.

 

Level IV Armour is *technically* illegal to possess, at least for the next month and a bit. There’s EU legislation banning civilians from having it, but no UK prohibitions.

A friend of ours purchased Russian plate carriers and the like in a big job lot(direct from russia) they came into the UK with no issue. 

 

Included in the package(unexpected) were the plates, complete with hole through the carrier. 

 

The numpty still plays in the whole gear, even though it weighs a feck-ton.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Prisce said:

A friend of ours purchased Russian plate carriers and the like in a big job lot(direct from russia) they came into the UK with no issue. 

 

Included in the package(unexpected) were the plates, complete with hole through the carrier. 

 

The numpty still plays in the whole gear, even though it weighs a feck-ton.

 

 

I play with simulated Level 4 plates when it’s not too hot - plastic sapi ones filled with sand. fun way to up the realism and cardio at once.

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16 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

Level IV Armour is *technically* illegal to possess, at least for the next month and a bit. There’s EU legislation banning civilians from having it, but no UK prohibitions.

 

Erm, care to state a source for that?  I believe it to be complete horse turd!

 

https://www.vestguard.co.uk/hard-armour-plate-nij-level-iiiiv-34.html

https://protectiongroup.dk/ballistic-side-plate-nij-level-4-ceramic-stand-alone

https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/cpe-diamond-armour-plate-nij-iv-stand-alone/29952

https://www.uktactical.com/p-4993-nexus-level-iv-monolithic-hard-plate.aspx

 

For something that is illegal to own there seem to be an awful lot of retailers willing to sell it. 

 

**edit, did some research, armour rated ABOVE Level IV is classed as armament materials and is illegal to own.  

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