Spray painting a two tone airsoft gun

[Sacarathe]

UKARA is not form of defence, they established them self as a defence but according to VCRA its about regular use not about being registered with UKARA, just because your gun was purchased through UKARA shop it doesn't mean that your defence cannot be challenged in court I did touch law when I was in uni and this would be a perfect scenario for debate

 

Wrong (36-39).

 

The govt has acknowledged UKARA numerous times and tbh the end-all of that is the customs response to it.

 

Fact is that its a defence to only a small number of stated offences, and not others - it's not a defence to any intent offences, if CPS proves intent, the defence is useless.

 

If you were in court, and intent was proved (or you were charged with an offence not in s.36), you couldn't use this defence.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Sacarathe

[Giliador]

You are right about customs, but then you can have long debate about seizure of legal and illegal knifes by customs

 

And from the link,

 

1.The defence for airsoft skirmishing can apply to individual players because their purchase of realistic imitation firearms for this purpose is considered part of the holding of a skirmishing event.

 

What if I hold UKARA have RIF but don't participate in the events, When defence stop or start being defence?

[Mack]

Without defence it is illegal, and here is the problem, I understand having museum, films and theater on the list, you have a justified reason that can be proven with document etc. When VCRA was introduced Airsoft skirmishes were not included on the list,this was later added by secretary of state. There should be separate section for Use of RIF for skirmishes. I know UKARA was adapted by shops as a valid defence, but there is nothing about UKARA in the VCRA so in theory you can visit shop with the letter from your local insured site saying you attend skirmishes regularly and therefore you have defence to buy RIF.

 

Gifting of RIF should be made illegal as well, If its ok to gift then I can open a shop and sell magazine for £200 with a free gift of RIF

 

No its not. Please show me where it says anywhere in UK law that its illegal to own a RIF.

[proffrink]

I did touch law when I was in uni and this would be a perfect scenario for debate

Well now we know why a lot of these posts exist then.

 

I'm not sure how many more ways I can tell you that common law means gaps are always left in the way we actually make make bills and amendments to those bills. Case law is important and that's where the debate will actually happen. Until then, don't worry about it - UKARA is more than a valid defence; it's actually recognised by Border Force as being as such. Receipts, photos of you playing, site membership etc. - they all prove you have a legitimate use for an RIF and - again - VCRA covers the purchase and manufacture of RIFs. It does not cover ownership.

 

Even then, you'd never be taken to court for just ownership. As Sacarathe says, it's about intent. VCRA was mostly made to give prosecutory powers; not to be a regularly enforced restriction on RIF ownership. The reason RIFs are even mentioned in there is simply to distinguish them from the rest of the bill.

 

Welcome to the grey grey area of airsoft.

[Giliador]

 

No its not. Please show me where it says anywhere in UK law that its illegal to own a RIF.

Well that's great new, I can buy RIF abroad and have it shipped to UK since it's perfectly legal to own one

[Mack]

Well that's great new, I can buy RIF abroad and have it shipped to UK since it's perfectly legal to own one

 

No beacause that would be importing. Have you even read the VCRA?

 

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

 

(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

 

(b)he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

 

© he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

 

(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

[Giliador]

How is that legal if law stops you from buying one. Its you who hold defence to buy which makes it legal but if you don't have defence it's still legal to poses one

[Mack]

How is that legal if law stops you from buying one. Its you who hold defence to buy which makes it legal but if you don't have defence it's still legal to poses one

 

It doesnt stop you from buying one. ITS NOT ILLEGAL TO BUY

 

Its illegal to MANUFACTURE, IMPORT AND SELL

 

You provide the seller with a defence (Site membership number AKA UKARA)

 

You realize thousands of RIFS were sold and owned by people pre 2006? when the new law came in were these people forced to hand them over due to owning them?

[Lozart]

How is that legal if law stops you from buying one. Its you who hold defence to buy which makes it legal but if you don't have defence it's still legal to poses one

 

I think you're confusing "legal" and "defence against prosecution". The offence is still there, having a defence means you won't be prosecuted.

[Jedi_Master]

How is that legal if law stops you from buying one. Its you who hold defence to buy which makes it legal but if you don't have defence it's still legal to poses one

Could be to cover historic ownership, those who had airsoft guns prior to VCRA, and those that have given up the hobby but still keep the guns they obtained legally.

 

If you have a valid UKARA number then you can buy from abroad (i.e. Gunfire) because Customs recognise it as proof of defence. therefore, you could be on holiday in Europe and buy a gun locally and post it to your UK address as long as it has your UKARA number on the package. Is that any different to ordering from a foreign retailer? Either way you have bought it, and it is imported. Having the defence is the exception to s.36 1. (d). It is all rather grey and unclear.

[Giliador]

So if I had two tone but paint came off, is this manufacturing ? Or absolutely legal. And you can't sell to under 18, but gift is fine.

 

Mack: but it's illegal for them to sell me one so how can I buy one If its illegal to sell cigarets is it legal to buy them? No!

 

This law have more holes then me after attending skirmish with Mack

 

And its good they included people who would own RIF before new law, but they should just add exception or circumstances, this would hopefully prevent so many loopholes and confusion.

[Mack]

So if I had two tone but paint came off, is this manufacturing ? Or absolutely legal. And you can't sell to under 18, but gift is fine.

 

Mack: but it's illegal for them to sell me one so how can I buy one If its illegal to sell cigarets is it legal to buy them? No!

 

If you bought one thats fine, The seller is the one commiting the offence, not you

[proffrink]

This law have more holes then me after attending skirmish with Mack

 

And its good they included people who would own RIF before new law, but they should just add exception or circumstances, this would hopefully prevent so many loopholes and confusion.

Welcome to a common law legal system. The law is never 100% clear until it's been through the courts a couple of times.

 

Especially not when the RIF amendment is tacked on as an afterthought either.

[Giliador]

I was surprises about some of the cases, I remember there was one about pregnant woman who saw motorbike crash and had miscarriage, then she sued dead motorcyclist for damages under duty of care and she won.

 

So can I sell my £200 mag with a free RIF gift ?

[jcheeseright]

This thread is great, writ large the ignorance of the average airsofter who thinks he knows what's what because he's chatted to some people in the safe zone!

 

UKARA is a means by which you can provide a seller with a defence against prosecution so they can sell you a RIF; selling is a crime, retailers want a cast iron (ish) way to cover themselves because they're the ones breaking the law. UKARA is it, though by the letter of the law they just need to believe you are purchasing for use in a permitted activity.

 

UKARA is your means of providing a defence for yourself if importing, as you're committing a crime by importing a RIF. Like a retailer, customs want something documentary so they can satisfy themselves 100% that while you are illegally importing a RIF (it is still a crime) you have a defence against prosecution for doing so.

 

UKARA is meaningless when it comes to ownership as owning a RIF (even if you NEVER play) isn't a crime. There is no part of any law in the UK that prohibits the ownership of a realistic imitation firearm and so you do not need a defence.

 

Manufacture is where you can satisfy yourself that you have a suitable defence, since the wording of the skirmisher's defence is just that the RIF is to be used for the permitted activity. By the letter of the law you can plan to go to a game, paint your gun and then never go.

[proffrink]

So can I sell my £200 mag with a free RIF gift ?

This would still count as a transaction, so you'd need a defence from the buyer.

 

Common law isn't so written in stone that you can circumvent it just by reading between the lines or thinking you're mildly clever; that's what case law is for - the law is tried and tested in a courtroom. There will have been trials where someone used that exact same analogy as their defence against 'selling' a restricted item and it'd be cited just as thousands of bits of case law are cited in court every day.

 

Basically, don't a tool and ruin it for all of us - just be careful. No one has been enough of an idiot to be prosecuted so far (and it's coming up on 9 years since the amendment passed).

 

This thread is great, writ large the ignorance of the average airsofter who thinks he knows what's what because he's chatted to some people in the safe zone!

 

UKARA is a means by which you can provide a seller with a defence against prosecution so they can sell you a RIF; selling is a crime, retailers want a cast iron (ish) way to cover themselves because they're the ones breaking the law. UKARA is it, though by the letter of the law they just need to believe you are purchasing for use in a permitted activity.

 

UKARA is your means of providing a defence for yourself if importing, as you're committing a crime by importing a RIF. Like a retailer, customs want something documentary so they can satisfy themselves 100% that while you are illegally importing a RIF (it is still a crime) you have a defence against prosecution for doing so.

 

UKARA is meaningless when it comes to ownership as owning a RIF (even if you NEVER play) isn't a crime. There is no part of any law in the UK that prohibits the ownership of a realistic imitation firearm and so you do not need a defence.

 

Manufacture is where you can satisfy yourself that you have a suitable defence, since the wording of the skirmisher's defence is just that the RIF is to be used for the permitted activity. By the letter of the law you can plan to go to a game, paint your gun and then never go.

I'm sorry but you've said nothing there that disagrees with what anyone else has been saying for the last two pages (apart from Giliador, that is - which is slightly amusing as he's the one that's liked your post). I must be missing something, apologies :S

[Giliador]

He called me average airsofter, I'll take it as a compliment ;-)

[Longshot]

This thread has hurt my head and damaged my will to live.

[ImTriggerHappy]

I cant believe there is a 3 page discussion of such a basic concept as the VCRA and the purchase or ownership of an airsoft weapon (cant use the word RIF as its taking on the same connotation as GAT lately).

Instead of trying to pick holes in the wording try and understand the intent of the act and laws. Any law can be pulled apart in wording thats why the legal system recognises the intent not just the exact wording of any law or legal act.

 

Its simple and anybody who has trouble understanding it is even simpler.

[Sacarathe]

I cant believe there is a 3 page discussion of such a basic concept

I'm not sure this is a discussion:

 

A: "I think X is true"

B: "it's not try again"

A: "I think X1 is true"

C: "it's not try again"

A: "I think X2 is true"

D:"it's not try again"

A: "I think X3 is true"

 

Its simple and anybody who has trouble understanding it is even simpler.

 

[Giliador]

I'm not sure this is a discussion:

 

A: "I think X is true"

B: "it's not try again"

A: "I think X1 is true"

C: "it's not try again"

A: "I think X2 is true"

D:"it's not try again"

A: "I think X3 is true"

 

 

bollocks any law can be challenged even the simplest, and if you did study law you very often would analyse cases like the famous Donoghue v Stevenson, when suddenly you realize there is a flaw, I still don't have a clue what is and isn't a defense for me to manufacture RIF do I go on skirmishes once or every week ? You are not allowed to make RIF from IF, my green paint just came off, what do I do. Selling is crime but owning is fine... my dealer will not be happy about it. I'm more than happy to sit here quiet and wait for something horrible to happen (getting shot in the eye case, I suspect by a teenager) following by debate to ban airsoft since kids can own one, and if serious accident will happen it will be too late to change law then.

[proffrink]

Urgh

[ImTriggerHappy]

Goverment health warning alert.

 

 

Everybody is advised to boil all drinking water as it's just been confirmed the water supply had been contaminated by an unknown substance that's making people turn stupid.

[Aengus]

bollocks any law can be challenged even the simplest, and if you did study law you very often would analyse cases like the famous Donoghue v Stevenson, when suddenly you realize there is a flaw, I still don't have a clue what is and isn't a defense for me to manufacture RIF do I go on skirmishes once or every week ? You are not allowed to make RIF from IF, my green paint just came off, what do I do. Selling is crime but owning is fine... my dealer will not be happy about it. I'm more than happy to sit here quiet and wait for something horrible to happen (getting shot in the eye case, I suspect by a teenager) following by debate to ban airsoft since kids can own one, and if serious accident will happen it will be too late to change law then.

Goverment health warning alert.

 

 

Everybody is advised to boil all drinking water as it's just been confirmed the water supply had been contaminated by an unknown substance that's making everybody turn stupid.

Rekt

 

Any ways why the hate towards teenagers

Edited April 22, 2016 by Monty
Inappropriate GIF..

[Sacarathe]

And, to bring this thread back on topic:

http://gunfire.pl/product-eng-1152211293-Painting-Servico-de-pintura-make-the-airsoft-gun-meet-your-local-law-requirements.html



UKARA, or proof of age sufficient to import? (/troll)

€5.12 (£4) really puts our retailers to shame.

 

 

IMPORTANT: legal restrictions in Portugal and the United Kingdom also apply to initial muzzle velocity - some models of replicas will also require the gun's initial muzzle velocity to be lowered by using the DOWNGRADE SERVICE

I wonder from whom they got this.