Policing and Crime Bill 2015-16 - This is now (mostly) the law as part of the Policing and Crime Act 2017

[Kash]

im curious about their "readily convertible" rules, since every gun is that, and quick change springs even more so.

 

Apparently this is still under discussion

[Sacarathe]

 

UKARA have spent close to £10000 fighting for the airsoft industry.

 

Those cheap thieving basterds, only 10k??

[Baz JJ]

UKAPU have a Facebook page so its easy for them just to share the information on that platform.

Once it gets shared, then its spread easily around the many airsoft groups on FB. Its very easy to propagate information and photos on FB where forums tend to be more clunky.

 

Also Forums generally have less activity than FB IMHO.

 

I look at both medias and I generally find that the information on FB is announced there long before the airsoft mags and a lot of forum news only comes from stuff seen on FB first.

 

Im no particular lover of FB but I tend to use whichever medium works for me.

 

I'm slightly perplexed that nothing has been made of this news from UKAPU here at the forums.

https://www.facebook.com/UKAPU/posts/1101776923268610

Unless of course I'm in the wrong place..

 

The UKAPU and UKARA have made some great strides with supporting our sport and all credit is due.

I just with they would make more use of other channels for getting the information out rather than assuming the world and his wife are on Facebook, which they are not!

Anyway, it seems that (if things go ahead as stated) if you own a GBBR or HPA that is 'capable' of firing over 1.3J on full auto (most of them) that you could now be faced with a section 5 offence.

Maximum Joule rating for single shot/semi auto 2.5J !?

 

I hope there's going to be scope for some form of official 'derestriction/modification' to allow your GBBR to be licensed for use rather than having it destroyed. Or maybe it will affect import and sale only, not ownership..

I hope they manage to sort the gas and air issue out, I don't want to be limited to AEG.

Any thoughts?

[Mr Monkey Nuts]

 

Those cheap thieving basterds, only 10k??

 

Where have you got that quote from? And have they actually provided any proof of that?

 

[EDIT] Not a flame to you Sacarathe at all.

[Sacarathe]

 

Where have you got that quote from? And have they actually provided any proof of that?

 

[EDIT] Not a flame to you Sacarathe at all.

 

AFAIK that's all me, the E was actually a typo which I ran with.

[Jason8]

Here's the latest from UKAPU:

 

Post 4/4- Full auto HPA/GBB and the PCB

The law on airsoft power limits is changing. By carrying on as normal you could be committing a criminal act. This post turned into a bit of an essay, as I wanted everyone to have the full picture, but please do read it through.

The airsoft exception in the Policing and Crime Bill 2015-16 (PCB) will (amongst other things) set the upper power limit for fully automatic airsoft guns at 1.3 Joules (approximately 370fps with a .20g bb). To classify as an airsoft gun it must be;

‘Not capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds the permitted level.’

Due to being over the new lethal threshold and exception threshold, an airsoft gun capable of firing at over 1.3J is a firearm, subject to the firearms act, and if it’s capable of full auto fire then a firearm is subject to general prohibition under section 5(1)(a) of the firearms act 1968. Possessing a section 5 firearm without permission from the secretary of state carries a mandatory 5 year prison sentence.

1.3J is the power limit recommended by ACPO that we’ve been operating under since 2011, but what’s changed is that this won’t be a recommendation any more. When it was a recommendation it was difficult for the Police to work out whether to press air gun based charges or not, and lethality of the device could still be proven or disproven in court, as the recommendation had little legal standing. So it wasn’t a problem, as it was still so much grey area that prosecuting an airsoft player wouldn’t be worth the hassle. But after the PCB becomes law it will be easy to determine what is and isn’t lethal, it will be made clear that possessing a full auto airsoft gun firing at over 1.3J is possession of a prohibited firearm. Just to reiterate, that could mean 5 years in jail.

This comparatively low lethal threshold (though, not as low as it would have been if not for all the lobbying over the last few years) raises questions surrounding imports and ‘ready convertibility’ but it’s best to cover that subject in another post if people are interested. We’re not too concerned with semi auto airsoft guns which are capable of exceeding the threshold, as the threshold is much more generous (2.5J) and above that they simply fall into the same class as air rifles. Which isn’t a problem (unless you live in Scotland like me, in which case it could be classed as an unlicensed air rifle).

The concern I wish to address in this post is that full auto gas and HPA airsoft guns are, generally speaking, easy to push over 1.3J even in off the shelf form, by loading them with black gas, or simply turning up the regulator. It doesn’t matter that you run your gun in game at less than 1.3J, what matters is that your HPA or GBB full auto is ‘capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds the permitted level’. If your airsoft gun was confiscated and brought in for testing, the forensic lab would probably try and find out if your gun was ‘capable of exceeding the permitted level’. They would put in the most powerful gas available or crank the regulator up. As it stands most of the HPA and GBBR airsoft guns currently in the UK will be regarded as Section 5 firearms. Not good.

Some players who message us seem concerned that the UKAPU committee isn’t worried about this situation, that we are only protecting UKAPU members with AEGs. That’s not the case at all. 7 out of 9 people on the committee own HPA guns. Most of us have GBBRs too. UKAPU has been campaigning on this issue since 2010 when we started meeting with forensic labs and writing to ACPO on this very subject. We’ve raised the issue repeatedly with the Home Office at our scheduled meetings, and with MPs. Most people are likely only aware of this issue because we keep banging on about it. So believe me when I say that we care about this problem, we’ve done, and are doing, everything we can. For some reason, which we don’t really understand, few people in airsoft have taken an interest. Even now, mere months away from the new law coming into force, the community is, on the whole, silent on the issue. One or two people are outright denying it’s happening, which is baffling, as the draft bill has been progressing all year, easily available on the parliament website.
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/policingandcrime.html

We, the people who are paying attention, need to work turn these attitudes around.

There are also some people who are arguing that the police won’t care, it will never come up. FELWG (firearms and explosives licensing working group) have been asking the government for years to set a lethal threshold in law, so CPS, the Police Chiefs, etc. were crucial in making this law happen, they do care. If airsoft players and businesses take the attitude that they’ll ignore the new law, they will be jeopardising the airsoft community’s reputation as law abiding. It’s fair to say still have an open line to the government because of how seriously we have taken our responsibilities with the VCRA over the last decade, and our good citizenship in general.

Recently something has come up which is eerily close to the situation we find ourselves in with airsoft guns and section 5. Everyone assumed that the Steyr LP50 airt pistol didn’t fall foul of section 5 prohibition, but without warning Yorkshire Police took an interest in what had been referred to as a ‘technicality’ and started confiscating them from ranges and retailers (they are £1500, so it’s quite a loss). So it’s fair to say, these ‘technicalities’ are not off the radar by any means http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/17/breaking-common-2000-airgun-might-suddenly-illegal-uk/

Obviously the Police will not be coming to an airsoft site just to chrono guns. But there are scenarios in which the Police could send your airsoft guns away for examination, real situations we’ve seen UKAPU members get into a few times over the years. For example, a nosy neighbour notices you handling a replica in your house and calls it in. Police come to your house but want to use a lab to verify that it isn’t a real firearm (kind of daft, but it has happened). Or perhaps your car is randomly stopped and searched on the way to a game, and the same thing occurs. The Police are totally cool with airsoft players most of the time, but every once in a while there’s a bad officer with a point to prove, who is under the false impression that airsoft replicas are somehow unlawful, and will go to great lengths to prove wrongdoing. Another more likely scenario is when importing an airsoft gun UKBA stop your package to examine it, and run it through a chrono or a lab as a routine check.

Clearly it’s not proportional to lock someone up for 5 years for owning a 371fps airsoft gun. The Home Office were eager to address other issues we brought to them, for which we are extremely grateful. But they didn’t appear very interested in this, the elephant in the room. Like I say, we’ve been pushing this issue hard over the last year. So have UKARA, they’ve met with CPS, NPCC, and firearms lobby groups, trying to draw attention to the problem. In November we were relieved to hear the Home Office tell us that this needs to be looked at. So UKARA and UKAPU will meet with the Home Office firearms department again, in early to mid 2017. There’s no legislation changes on the table, but we will be seeking official guidance on how to comply with the new law. More importantly we’ll be asking them to issue sensible guidance on how to enforce the new laws. Another part of the PCB actually makes it mandatory for Police chiefs to enforce Home Office guidance, so the authority of the HO guidance can’t be underestimated.

But that leaves us in a sticky situation in the meantime. The PCB will soon be enacted and HPA/GBB full auto guns will mostly be classed as section 5 firearms. Perhaps our meeting with the Home Office will not bear fruit and this will be the situation forever (I hope not, but there’s no way to know). So what I would recommend is that you find a way to comply with the law as is- mechanically limit your full auto HPA/GBB guns so that they cannot fire at more than 1.3J.

We have been discussing technical solutions on the UK airsoft lobbying group. Feel free to join in https://www.facebook.com/groups/UKairsoftlobby/

I don’t really know what’s going to happen in the future as regards to making HPA and GBBR ‘UK compliant’ prior to import. I was hoping that the retail and manufacturing sectors would be leading this, and would be pushing compliant products already. Perhaps some are working on it, but are keeping it quiet. I’ve no idea.

The law is soon to be quite clear I think. UKAPU isn’t going to enforce the law, or force our interpretation of the new law on the community, that’s not what we do. We’re not an industry body, or a governing body, we just do what we can to protect the interests of UKAPU members. We’re not trying to justify the way the law has been written. We’re just putting the information out there.

Don’t be too despondent, I’m sure technical solutions will be available that will allow GBB and HPA to comply with the new law and carry on being used. Improvise, adapt and overcome, as we say in the Army. The Home Office still want to discuss the situation, so that door isn’t shut either.

Now for the usual reminder- if you are an airsoft player please become a part of UKAPU (if you haven’t already) and spread our message, because UKAPU is only as strong as you make it. We need a strong players association to keeping airsoft from being banned or heavily restricted in the future.

Kind Regards,
Matt Furey-King
Chair UK Airsoft Players Union

 

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So, my question and probably a lot of other people's;

I have a GBBR which of course will fire over 370 on full auto. So I'll remove the full auto selector and 'mechanically limit the gun to semi-auto'. Now, is this job done in the eyes of the police, or does the weapon need some official certification that it it restricted to semi-auto. What constitutes 'able' to to fire over 1.3j, general end user adjustments, BB weight, gas type, nozzle adjustment etc, or reversal of a mechanical modification that 'by and large' most end users won't be able to do due to technical intervention required above and beyond what would normally be expected or required.

 

My car wont do 120mph, no matter what fuel, oil, plugs, or filters I put in it. but it will if I modify the engine in some ways. not something i could do but many people could.

Not that the speed of my car is the issue here but just making an analogy to 'reverse engineering' a weapon.

Where does the 'not capable' start and finish, this is the burning question..

[Kash]

If a weapon was designed to fire full auto from factory mods are irellevant, ukapu have clarified this to a couple people on their Facebook.

 

They also said mechanical changes arent allowed ie, no nozzel changes. But they can crank npas and hpa up to full power and use super powerful gas etc

 

By they I mean during police testing

 

But this is all still super up in the air atm

[Sacarathe]

I best buy that G18 I've always wanted.

[sp00n]

I think we all need to stop and think things through, I can see the above may cause a lot of panic, but we need to be sensible about this.

 

I can not see the police just confiscating everyone's gbbr's

 

The way I see it is just because something can be more powerful dose not necessarily mean that it will be used in that way.

 

Take cars (bad example I know) most are capable of breaking a speed limit or 3, this doesn't mean every time I turn my ignition on I am going to get a speeding fine etc. The same could apply for kitchen knives, perfectly legal if used correctly etc.

 

The way I see gbbr's being approached is chrono first, if over guilty etc

[Jam_Man]

If a weapon was designed to fire full auto from factory mods are irellevant, ukapu have clarified this to a couple people on their Facebook.

 

They also said mechanical changes arent allowed ie, no nozzel changes. But they can crank npas and hpa up to full power and use super powerful gas etc

 

By they I mean during police testing

 

But this is all still super up in the air atm

 

Seen a guy from Ukapu today state no one knows what the law means to airsoft especially in regards to whether AEGs are to have "readily convertible" applied to them.

 

Don't understand this.

 

The law has been passed and just waiting to be rubber stamped so it must therefore be complete and documented yet still no one really knows what it means.

[Kash]

The issue is lawmakers dont understand the issues we have with the laws.

 

Hence it being clear as mud

[DarkAssassin]

Where is the dislike button because I dislike this whole thread! Having spent quite a lot of money on HPA systems in the last 6 months.

[Sacarathe]

The bizarre thing is that this so called exception doesn't change anything.

 

The legislation should have been written as the VCRA to grandfather in existing products and making the issue exist at the import stage only.

 

In effect forcing someone on govt payroll to approve all airsoft guns for import on a case by case basis - and then legislating by statutory instruments what modifications are allowed.

 

Where is the paintball exception?

[Shizbazki]

Where is the dislike button because I dislike this whole thread! Having spent quite a lot of money on HPA systems in the last 6 months.

 

Me too, i have just switched over to HPA about 8 months ago (and loving it)

[Kash]

I heard from a friend tippman are already on making a UK fixed limit internal, so maby not all doom n gloom.

[Sacarathe]

I heard from a friend tippman are already on making a UK fixed limit internal, so maby not all doom n gloom.

 

For point of sale.... So like two tone?

[Kash]

not sure yet, just what i heard

[jcheeseright]

Can't be point of sale, section 5 firearm is a section 5 firearm. It either exists or it doesn't.

 

If this goes down in the most restrictive way 'any gun capable of discharging more than one projectile in succession without repeated presses of the trigger' + 'more than 1.3j' = section 5; I can see some people in real trouble, not least retailers who's batch of cyma AKs shooting 1.31j are now in possession of a crate of section 5 firearms.

 

All depends how it's enforced really, would the CPS decline to prosecute if there was no intent? Would they decline to prosecute if the gun is within x% of the limit?

[MrMcG]

Yep that's how I understand it ^^^

 

It has to be below 1.3j at point of sale without modification

 

It's going to cause a few problems needless to say!

[Sacarathe]

It has to be below 1.3j at point of import without modification

Fixed it for you.

[MrMcG]

Fixed it for you.

Thanks I knew what I meant my wording did not 😂😂😂

[MarksmanHarry]

Better hold of on upgrading to HPA a bit longer then. This needs clarifying.

[Kash]

For thowe who arent aware this has now received royal ascent meaning it is now law, apparantly further guidance is due soon

[Sacarathe]

I'm sure it will be all right.

[Sacarathe]

Some humour:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/06/police-seize-800-weapons-in-anti-terror-crackdown

 

"meanwhile in parliament govt seeks to reclassify tens of thousands of toy guns as firearms."