CQB site size

[Pyro]

Spawned from a conversation with fellow skirmishers...

 

What is the relation to CQB site size and number of players you can sensibly have?

 

Bigger is always better, but how many could you get in say, a 2000sq foot warehouse? It would need lots of cover and maybe some multi level areas. Like laser quest, but with BB guns

 

Pyro

[Lozart]

2000 sq feet is pretty small.

 

For instance - the Mall is more like 250 thousand square feet and is comfortable for about 100 players.

 

I guess if you're looking for the US style warehouse full of hessian and plywood buildings though smaller would work. Just not 2000sqft small in my opinion.

[Chock]

 

Bigger is always better

 

 

 

Actually bigger isn't always better. We in fact asked the marshals to limit the size of the play area to just two floors last Sunday at Trojan's Weir Mill, because with all six floors in play there was too much tramping up and down the stairs searching for enemies instead of combat, resulting in not enough contact and when there was contact it would be only pistols at short ranges in the stairwells. When they more typically stick a squad on each floor as they did at Purge on week nights, the size of the place works well, but Sunday was an example of the large size of the site actually not helping matters.

[Pyro]

Hmmmm, yea. The mall puts it into perspective. But at the same time, you could get a lot more people in there than just 100. When I played there I spent quite some time wandering around un-occupied areas.

 

So what would be enough? There are some warehouses around hampshire that have 10k sq feet. Could maybe add 50% onto that with split level stuff. It's not huge, but providing you have enough cover, corners and rooms to provide intregue, would work out nicely.

 

I got the idea looking around the local ScrewFix back room thinking that 30-40 players could easily move between the shelves.

 

Hate it when you can't find any action Chock. Had that at most sites at one time or another, reaches a point you're running around praying someone shoots you so you at least know where to go after re spawn.

 

but on the flip side. Too small, and you spawn with line of sight on OP4 and just pi55 BBs away. Far to paintball/money grabbing for my taste

 

Pyro

[Lozart]

 

Actually bigger isn't always better. We in fact asked the marshals to limit the size of the play area to just two floors last Sunday at Trojan's Weir Mill, because with all six floors in play there was too much tramping up and down the stairs searching for enemies instead of combat, resulting in not enough contact and when there was contact it would be only pistols at short ranges in the stairwells. When they more typically stick a squad on each floor as they did at Purge on week nights, the size of the place works well, but Sunday was an example of the large size of the site actually not helping matters.

 

So how many players do they usually limit to? What area is each floor?

 

I agree that if you have a large site with too few players (or indeed marshals) it can get a bit Billy No Mates but The Mall with 100 players is generally fine. On a Thursday night with only 30 it can get pretty lonely roaming the corridors on your own. Although it can get a bit tense wandering about in the dark on your tod.

[ak2m4]

Warehouse style of play isn't everyones cup of tea but for me this really appeals. I like the idea of just rocking up for a quick game or two. Indoor environment, fairly quick turnaround on games, certainly a winner in my book. In Ashford, near where from where I live there's an old Homebase and Carpet Right opposite each other that have been empty for nearly 3 years now - what a waste!!!

[p1878]

The only place ive been to so far is SWAT at liverpool Fortress . They made it very enjoyable safe respect ,marshals and fello players. Game types chaged each time i went . I would say book and see what you think .

[BrightCandle]

Bunker 51 is an example of where there are just too many. Games in there are 60 people big and no one can move, the fatal funnel is unbreakable. With about 20 players its better but still driven by its fatal funnel. The site was designed for 5 v5 so its no surprise that 30v 30 doesn't work very well. Its supposedly thousands of square feet, which is pretty small. Partly its the design of the place as well, I think the number of lanes of combat you have around fatal funnels determines how stilted the gameplay becomes more than the total square footage. Design matters a great deal and Bunker 51 is a bad shape.

 

The mall on the other hand is a lot larger and you can obviously move around in it pretty well. Its got multiple routes through and the defence of some fatal funnels is hard so its possible to break through a well set up defence. But 100 players in there have 10-100x more space than the players in the bunker and instead of 1 fatal funnel they have at least 4 or 5 lanes to progress on and with cover fire and movement they often make some more.

 

I wouldn't just look at a space in terms of square footage, 2 big rooms with 1 door in between them is going to be an awful game and would not support many players, a warehouse with 10s of shelves has a lot of flanking opportunities and the exact opposite type of play compared to 1 door. Each has different player base sizes (and appeals to different types of players) and isn't directly based on just size.

[Airsoft_Mr B]

Halo Mill is really small, but I'd say you could only have 20 people max in there. Personally I don't really like it as at least in a realistic CQC situation (say room clearing for example) there wouldn't be so many angles and windows and things in one area.Too many fatal funnels IMO but then maybe I'm just bad.

[Pyro]

So, general consensus is that it's how the space is used over how big it is for the 10 -50 ish numbers. But then it becomes more about space, providing there isn't a single choke point. I'm also all in favor of well done 'sneaky bastard' tunnels where you get shot in the arse because you failed to spot the vent behind you. But they need to be done well.

 

Did anyone play UCAP Virus? it was a really nice site, but the staircases could lead to major choke points with lots of piling up on some games. BUT there was the space to move outside of all combat zones which just felt like wasted space.

 

Pyro

[ak2m4]

I've found this place close by to me, it's an old egg farm, tried calling the owner but no one ever picks up, looks like it needs a lot of work also to bring it up to H&S spec. There's actually 3 of these almost interlocking so the fun potential is definitely there. Now what to fill with....

 

[Pyro]

Alas, after pricing even a basic set up with trade price timber... Still a lot of money in plywood and 2x4's

[jcheeseright]

oh yeah, you're looking at an easy 10 grand to get somewhere started to any decent standard.

[Pyro]

Wouldn't go as far as 10k, providing you've got the building. And really depends how many rooms / walls are already there (or are you talking gearing up with hire kit, insurance, stock, staff...etc)?

Garages are normally prepared to let old tyres go pretty cheap if you ask, also renovators could be a cheap source for second hand wooden doors. Old up and over garage doors too. They make good baricades and could be used as a stop gap while the more 'official' structure is made.

 

I would imagine a reasonably top end site could be built into warehouse space for half that using re-claimed materials. Though, if you get full player limits, where is the motivation to finish, other than maybe charge more?

[jcheeseright]

10k was an figure myself and a couple of mates came up with for the setup of a whole CQB site in a warehouse from nothing; including insurance for the first year, hire guns, masks, overalls, materials for building, BBs, batteries, magazines, cardboard pyro, radios, first aid equipment, etc

 

That figure DIDN'T cover staff or rent, purely setup costs.

 

Bear in mind, a halfway decent hire gun is gonna cost ~£100 (that's with the VAT reclaimed), hi-cap magazines are a tenner a pop, batteries are another tenner... so that's £120 per hire gun, 20 hire guns and you're already down £2,400. Halfway decent masks (CQB = fog) are gonna run for another £20-30 each.... you get the idea! Either way, not a cheap venture to start. Setting up a woodland site is significantly quicker and easier, as you don't need to worry about buying materials and building all the cover etc straight away, a couple of weekends with a spade and a saw and you can have some halfway decent stuff going straight off.

[Pyro]

Yea, good point on hire costs. I imagine it would seriosuly impede innitial profits if you make them own equipment games only. Are there no options to hire from a 3rd party agency or even another site. Sort of make it a pre-book for equip hire.

[jcheeseright]

I doubt it, why would another site loan guns to a competitor?

 

Like any business, you've gotta speculate to accumulate! One way to do it would be to start off small-ish and buy only 5-10 hire guns, make people pre-book for them and you kinda create your own supply-demand issue!

[Albiscuit]

 

So how many players do they usually limit to? What area is each floor?

 

I agree that if you have a large site with too few players (or indeed marshals) it can get a bit Billy No Mates but The Mall with 100 players is generally fine. On a Thursday night with only 30 it can get pretty lonely roaming the corridors on your own. Although it can get a bit tense wandering about in the dark on your tod.

 

I have only ever played on a Sunday at the Mall, but always felt it might be better with less players. There lots of choke points and ppl tend to stand around in groups in the same areas all the time, its very frustrating sometimes as you have to double back to find another way through or rush into the fire sacrificing yourself to find no one followed (

I would like to do a game at the Mall with maybe 4 or 5 teams of 10 and you have to stay together in squads with some kind of capture the VIP game.

[Lozart]

 

I have only ever played on a Sunday at the Mall, but always felt it might be better with less players. There lots of choke points and ppl tend to stand around in groups in the same areas all the time, its very frustrating sometimes as you have to double back to find another way through or rush into the fire sacrificing yourself to find no one followed (

I would like to do a game at the Mall with maybe 4 or 5 teams of 10 and you have to stay together in squads with some kind of capture the VIP game.

 

I agree - but I think it's down to the type of players that come on a Sunday as opposed to the ones that come on a Thursday. I've had Sundays that have flowed exceptionally well with 100 players and Thursdays that have just been one big choke point!

 

Last trip I had there in November there were so few players that using the whole site seemed pointless and people still managed to choke up at the bottom of the back stairs! Thursdays are a bit more...tactical for want of a better word. There's less rentals and more regulars that know the layout which helps.

[Albiscuit]

Sounds like I would prefer a Thursday. Shame work and family time etc get in the way GRRR.. Still might have to pop up there one Thurs in the not too distant future then..

[Snowdrop]

South coast cqb isn't that big but I had probably the best days airsoft ever on just 8 a side. Worked perfectly.

[NH Shooter]

I think things like this can work, and the size looks good... But you need to get inventive with things. Also... You would need to get an airsoft business on board for supplies and possibly servicing. You can get your own trade accounts, but that's an expensive route with usually a £500 to 1000 minimum first spend For maybe 3 or 4 companies. And servicing... You could do with an offsite body for that as you'll be busy. Plus a business will have a customer base.

 

Also... Vat... Don't register until you absolutely have to... Vat returns have to be done by a chartered accountant... Which aren't cheap. And hope threshold is roughly 80k... But I haven't checked that lately. Woke you would be able to claim back vat, you'll still have to do all the paperwork and get an accountant... Which offsets the savings massively.

 

I've been looking at game arenas smaller than this which could work though.

[Pyro]

I'm wondering if, to justify a smaller site, something with a 'wow' factor to up admission charges. Like, would anyone ever pay £50 for a walk on 8h day w/o kit hire?

[Mack]

No chance

[Pyro]

Eh, there are always people with the money to burn. But yea, not you're average punter, unless it was some once a year, NPC filled scripted zombie day