UKARA Alternative

[M_P]

So basically the law on air soft rif's is more grey than the sky over the south of England.

Hey it's sunny at the moment

[Deva]

just gonna put this out there, I know longshot will disagree but whatever.

 

I think that project Luther SHOULD make a hard fast ruling on amount of times skirmishing, similar to the 3 in over 2 from ukara.

Otherwise its likely to end up with many retailers having different requirements or people not knowing whether they will be able to order an RIF from various retailers- it would lead to more confusion I think which is the opposite of what P:L is trying to do.

No one took huge exception to UKARA's requirements, and you could still do them at different sites etc, but if you leave it up to retailers to decide on what each accepts etc then it will fragment the system.

Purely my opinion, just putting it out there.

 

I don't think retailers would change their requirements at all. 3 in 2 works for them and change = possible confusion.

 

Having the openness of P:L would mean someone could email or walk in to the store and a sale possibly still take place. Say you played 24 times (once a month) in 2011-2012, but didn't play at all in 2013 due a financial or medical reason (for example), does it not seem a bit odd that you can't sell to them?

[Airsoft-Ed]

just gonna put this out there, I know longshot will disagree but whatever.

 

I think that project Luther SHOULD make a hard fast ruling on amount of times skirmishing, similar to the 3 in over 2 from ukara.

Otherwise its likely to end up with many retailers having different requirements or people not knowing whether they will be able to order an RIF from various retailers- it would lead to more confusion I think which is the opposite of what P:L is trying to do.

No one took huge exception to UKARA's requirements, and you could still do them at different sites etc, but if you leave it up to retailers to decide on what each accepts etc then it will fragment the system.

Purely my opinion, just putting it out there.

My thoughts as well.

 

I can just see two places offering the same products but one of them having their "You become a skirmisher after this..." requirement being less or something.

[Ian_Gere]

just gonna put this out there, I know longshot will disagree but whatever.

 

I think that project Luther SHOULD make a hard fast ruling on amount of times skirmishing, similar to the 3 in over 2 from ukara.

Otherwise its likely to end up with many retailers having different requirements or people not knowing whether they will be able to order an RIF from various retailers- it would lead to more confusion I think which is the opposite of what P:L is trying to do.

No one took huge exception to UKARA's requirements, and you could still do them at different sites etc, but if you leave it up to retailers to decide on what each accepts etc then it will fragment the system.

Purely my opinion, just putting it out there.

You've got a good point there, Marcus, and currently I'm not sure what the solution is. However I feel that there must be a way of leaving the responsibility with the seller, where it belongs legally and practically, and also giving players a clear understanding of their own status vis a vis the VCRA defence. It will just take a bit of thought by somebody in a better state of consciousness than I can currently muster and/or some debate...

[Ian_Gere]

My thoughts as well.

 

I can just see two places offering the same products but one of them having their "You become a skirmisher after this..." requirement being less or something.

Yeah, but so long as it's legal, so what? And remember, whether or not it is legal is none of our business as players. Our responsibility is simply to provide the information concerning our identities and skirmish activities. It is up to the seller to decide what s/he does with it.

[Airsoft-Ed]

Yeah, but so long as it's legal, so what? And remember, whether or not it is legal is none of our business as players. Our responsibility is simply to provide the information concerning our identities and skirmish activities. It is up to the seller to decide what s/he does with it.

It buggers up the competition we're trying to promote between retailers though.

 

Instead of doing it on price, they'll just shuffle closer and closer to selling to people regardless of how many games and the length of the time frame.

[Deva]

They would find too much risk in that, in my opinion. They're all part of UKARA now because they don't want risk. They don't have to be part of it if they wanted to push the limits for business as you are suggesting.

[Fumps]

I've spent the last few hours reading through various opinions on both the Luther & the Bac system.

The Bac system seems a bit like for like where the Luther seems to be trying to streamline the system, but then again I suppose I was wrong to judge a system before it's a completed idea.

 

I do like the idea of an actual card or passport style system, The whole Defence thing is so confusing and vague to new comers, whilst we have UKARA in place it's making things harder for people who want to take part in the hobby to purchase RIF's while it completely seems to ignore the fact that you can purchase real firearms for cheaper on the black market than a rif anyway.

 

But what I find very baffling is how neither of them give a good idea or system for buying & selling 2nd had Rif's. I mean this is one of the bigger stumbling blocks. But how do you create a way for private individual to check someone's personal details without breaking the data protection act ?

My better half works in electronic personal verification & anti fraud management, I can tell you it's a bloody mind bending mine field.

 

There are lots to balance out I suppose. the control that is needed to be a good system will need what it ultimately does not have, which is legal backing from the government, and without that It will always mean it can be side stepped. but on the same respect there are peoples personal data rules & regulations that need to be also adhered to.

 

I dont envy these people trying to design this system, but something needs to be changed. Clarity needs to be added that's for sure.

[Fumps]

I also would like to offer my support to the guys who are trying to make things better for us all.

 

It cant be an easy task, but the fact you are trying should be recognised. Thanks guys it really is appreciated

[fivezerothree]

A lot of people have mentioned "legal backing, Home Office approval" etc but it doesn't actually exist. Law is king and I found that out the hard way. Luther's system goes beyond what is currently available and makes it better which will allow retailers the benefit of ensuring that their customers are indeed eligible customers. We have however spoken to 'authorities'.

In regards to the DPA, there's zero issues. When you submit your details to Luther you agree to them being shared to retailers as they are needed to verify your legal defence. In terms of player to player checks, the buyer can either agree or decline to show skirmish attendances temporarily, willingly.

[Mike636]

He may have a face like a sniper's elbow but Leon explains the salient points to P:L

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=584221858325741

[Russe11]

I had a thought. What about new players? Is it fair to charge the £5 straight away for people trying the sport or to disregard their attendances before they sign up? Maybe you should make it free to sign up but charge £5 before your profile can be searched by retailers? You could even possibly allow retailers to sort out the payment as I'm sure some would include it in the price of a new gun? Once you've paid the initial £5 then its fine to expect payment every year.

[Mike636]

I'll forward this on to Leon and let you know, its a good point - if you think of any more send em to www.projectluther.com !

[typefish]

I had a thought. What about new players? Is it fair to charge the £5 straight away for people trying the sport or to disregard their attendances before they sign up? Maybe you should make it free to sign up but charge £5 before your profile can be searched by retailers? You could even possibly allow retailers to sort out the payment as I'm sure some would include it in the price of a new gun? Once you've paid the initial £5 then its fine to expect payment every year.

 

That is a brilliant idea.

[Airsoft-Ed]

I don't really see the point though, if I'm honest.

'Cos if retailers can't see your attendance record without you paying a fiver, then that means we'd have to bar everyone from seeing it until you pay a fiver because if retailers had to wait for you to pay a fiver, but private sellers didn't then there'd be no need to pay one because the retailers could just check it as if they were private sellers. If you get me?

I could've probably worded that better, but hey ho.

But yeah, doing that makes it useless as a defence. So if everyone is going to pay £5 at some point, why not just make it immediately? It'd make it easier to sort the people who can have info checked, from the people who can't and it'd also save us having to program the database to show that.

Additionally, paying your fiver is what entitles you to the incentives, discounted fees at certain sites, a free weekender every year and monthly raffles. Assuming the finances can cover all of that, of course.

Without those incentives, and without being able to use your membership for what it was intended - as a defence - then why would anyone ever bother to use it at all?

[Russe11]

No, the point is to allow new players to start registering games but not to allow their profile to be viewed until they pay. The issue is that if you try airsoft for the 1st time, you cannot be sure you will want to continue so why would you pay for Luther? After a couple of games you may decide that airsoft is something you want to take up, under UKARA thats fine, you just need one more game and to wait until 2 months after your 1st game. Under Luther as its currently proposed, any games before you register are effectively lost as a defence. So why not make if free to log the games but then charge to make your profile useable as a defence by allowing retailers to look at it. This is just to make it easy for new players to get started, once you pay your fiver your Luther profile is upgraded and you commit to paying every year.

This also makes it easier for sites as people not willing to pay for Luther can still be given a profile so that the site can use the system to track who they have playing but without giving the non paying profiles any of the benefits.

 

Until you pay your fiver, only sites you play at would be able to see your profile. Another option would be to allow sites to store a profile locally and take the £5 payment before uploading it.

[Curly68]

When I started, I thought it was a bit silly of a grown man running around a field with a toy gun! I went again and enjoyed it so thought about UKARA. The site knew I had played with them before and put that down for my first visit. Under Luther, as I see it, I wouldn't have been able to count the first or second visit or any until I have paid my fiver. Could put people off joing Luther?? Definitely worth considering the idea above, especially at this stage of setting Luther up.

On another note, I am in talks with regard to setting up an indoor CQB site with the possibility of expanding to a woodland site in the same complex. I would like to offer the customers the chance to use the site as either UKARA, BAC or Luther affiliated. I can't see anywhere that I couldn't register the site with all three as it seems that the BAC is well on its way to opening registrations (for the right or wrong reasons remain to be seen but that's another subject entirely) and Luther sounds good but still a fair way off.

Good thing with BAC and Luther is that I wouldn't have to pay to be affiliated to them!

[Airsoft-Ed]

No, the point is to allow new players to start registering games but not to allow their profile to be viewed until they pay. The issue is that if you try airsoft for the 1st time, you cannot be sure you will want to continue so why would you pay for Luther? After a couple of games you may decide that airsoft is something you want to take up, under UKARA thats fine, you just need one more game and to wait until 2 months after your 1st game. Under Luther as its currently proposed, any games before you register are effectively lost as a defence. So why not make if free to log the games but then charge to make your profile useable as a defence by allowing retailers to look at it. This is just to make it easy for new players to get started, once you pay your fiver your Luther profile is upgraded and you commit to paying every year.

This also makes it easier for sites as people not willing to pay for Luther can still be given a profile so that the site can use the system to track who they have playing but without giving the non paying profiles any of the benefits.

 

Until you pay your fiver, only sites you play at would be able to see your profile. Another option would be to allow sites to store a profile locally and take the £5 payment before uploading it.

Ah I see your point now.

 

It probably can be set up relatively easily, as there'll already have to be an automated cut off in place to ensure people pay their fiver again the next year.

 

Do you think a lot of people read into it enough to know about UKARA or any of the laws surrounding airsoft before they've been to play a game though? I got into airsoft because I wanted to buy a GBBR RIF and ended up enjoying the game in the process. So obviously I found out about the guns and the laws before the game.

 

But I imagine most people might just see a YouTube video, google for a site and then play without thinking anything else of it. So they'd still end up having their first game or two discounted anyway.

 

I expressly spoke to my site about becoming a member and signing up before the first game even started lol.

 

Perhaps there's a way we could log unregistered players at a later date, we'll have to do some figuring and look into it.

[jcheeseright]

Perhaps pre-printed cards which you can scan and they create a member entry on the database with blank personal details that the user fills in later. Like signing up for a tesco club card or whatever.

 

Send a book of disposable cards out to each site that signs up and new players can get going immediately, they'll get their proper plastic card when they've registered online and paid their £5.

[Airsoft-Ed]

That could work.

[Ian_Gere]

This is potentially a real balleache, because either we are asking sites to keep a separate record of attendances, so that new players attendances prior to Luther reg. are available to be logged after the fact, or we have to make sites administer Luther. Both ways we have to go back on goals Luther aims to put in place: a 1 stop shop / zero hassle (just swipe & forget - the tech does the rest).

[Russe11]

So basically the ability to have free accounts for people that log attendance for only sites to see would be needed to ensure that sites can use the system for everyone regardless of whether they pay for Luther. Otherwise sites are then forced to have 2 different systems.

[ak2m4]

Finally, I've been thinking about the need for a player/site focused and controlled system for the last 6 years. Something like this should never be in the hands of the retailers. I even wrote a simple database/web system (been in IT for 20 years now) a few years back as a test but couldn't get any large sites to sign up to it. As some have pointed out it's a lot of hard work when you have a full time job, family and commitments etc. I admire the level of tech that PL wants to acheive be nice to see if it can be implemented. I've just invested a lot of money into a new online airsoft retail business so looking forward to seeing what you chaps cook up. If you need any assistance let me know. Good stuff.

[M_P]

Any update on Luther at all, haven't heard anything for a while?

[Mike636]

We've updated and changed our name to something a little more formal, the BASA ( British Airsoft Skirmishers Association )

 

http://thebasa.org

 

We are currently still building the guts of the database and how it will integrate with retailers and sites. We also have had some very positive face to face discussions with site owners and retailers which has led to us to evolve the system further! The Facebook page is still under Project Luther as Facebook are so fond of it we haven't been able to change it. It still may take time as all of us are doing this in our free time but we are doing this because we love Airsofting!

 

Project Luther - Chief Tea and biscuit supervisor out!