Should more sites weigh the bbs during chrono?

[Tackle]

That's enough to put me off, when I used to occasionally player marshal at a group of Kent sites, there was one particular team, from Essex I believe, & led by a loud mouthed aussie bird (are there any other kind of aussie ?😜), & their tactic was to arrive late & miss the mandatory chrono, until one day @Duff Beer, who was a full time marshal pulled them all aside, only to find pretty much every rifle was running hot.

I think they all got banned at their next visit for other shenanigans. 

I was weird though, she was like some kinda pied piper, considerably older than the rest of the team & constantly barking orders at them, which they happily followed.

Anyone else remember them/her ? 🤔

[mrfoxhound]

 

8 hours ago, Tackle said:

That's enough to put me off, when I used to occasionally player marshal at a group of Kent sites, there was one particular team, from Essex I believe, & led by a loud mouthed aussie bird (are there any other kind of aussie ?😜), & their tactic was to arrive late & miss the mandatory chrono, until one day @Duff Beer, who was a full time marshal pulled them all aside, only to find pretty much every rifle was running hot.

I think they all got banned at their next visit for other shenanigans. 

I was weird though, she was like some kinda pied piper, considerably older than the rest of the team & constantly barking orders at them, which they happily followed.

Anyone else remember them/her ? 🤔

i believe she claimed to be Israeli or ran a IDF load out ? maybe 2008/2009 ish ? 

 

the question you have to ask is how many people are cheating the chrono at AP , the answer is we don't know because they don't check any weapons before first game , if one person gets hurt  and they attempt to claim on the insurance that's like a default win, they have no defence to say they insured all air muskets where with in site and legal limits . when people talk about insurance going up this will be why .  

Edited Monday at 19:24 by mrfoxhound

[Tackle]

14 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

 

i believe she claimed to be Israeli or ran a IDF load out ? maybe 2008/2009 ish ? 

 

The years sound close, I seem to remember her claiming to be an officer in the aussie army, she was quite a lump, more like a rugby prop forward with mental wiry blonde hair & a big mouth.

Definitely didn't look like any Israeli I ever met ?

[Anonymoose]

1 minute ago, Tackle said:

The years sound close, I seem to remember her claiming to be an officer in the aussie army, she was quite a lump, more like a rugby prop forward with mental wiry blonde hair & a big mouth.

Definitely didn't look like any Israeli I ever met ?

 

Officer? Sounds more like an office block.

[mrfoxhound]

20 minutes ago, Tackle said:

The years sound close, I seem to remember her claiming to be an officer in the aussie army, she was quite a lump, more like a rugby prop forward with mental wiry blonde hair & a big mouth.

Definitely didn't look like any Israeli I ever met ?

yea thats her . i remember she claimed people where gang stalking her and stuff on the internet she used to hangaround with a guy called Basildon dave and some of the guys  that used to run a shop i remember her running IDF gear when one of the first TAR 21 came out probly late 2009 early 2010 

Edited Monday at 20:10 by mrfoxhound

[heroshark]

I usually bring my own scales to chrono and place my balls on them for inspection before I shoot.

[Colin Allen]

11 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

 

i believe she claimed to be Israeli or ran a IDF load out ? maybe 2008/2009 ish ? 

 

the question you have to ask is how many people are cheating the chrono at AP , the answer is we don't know because they don't check any weapons before first game , if one person gets hurt  and they attempt to claim on the insurance that's like a default win, they have no defence to say they insured all air muskets where with in site and legal limits . when people talk about insurance going up this will be why .  

As for not checking any weapons before the first game, I have seen that done at AP and have been checked before the first game.

Edited Tuesday at 06:37 by Colin Allen

[mrfoxhound]

6 hours ago, Colin Allen said:

As for not checking any weapons before the first game, I have seen that done at AP and have been checked before the first game.

you been spot checked before first game , AP does not comprehensively check all weapons when they have a game and they dont know if people are cheating the chrono  

[Tommikka]

It’s a long time since I last read a site insurance policy.

There will be ‘almost standard’ policies around the activities and a quote is based on the questions / answers on the quote applications and are most likely to be subject to a risk assessment (and ideally the mitigations and method statement) as submitted by the site 

 

The value of anything on those can vary considerably

On a different tack I re-wrote a complete set of risk assessment, mitigations and method statement for my friend to trade at a festival. They asked for a method statement, I looked at the risk assessment that she had already submitted was a method statement - so we amended the title and resubmitted - that didn’t work.  So at 11 at night I produced the full range and in minutes of the email without the time to read the content they accepted it all

 

It is best practice to chronograph all customer guns before play begins.  But if the sites risk assessment, mitigations, method statement, staff procedures, insurance policy don’t say so then that’s an argument for later when a claim is made 

 

This is an American insurer that has a good video series for site owners (it’s titled Paintball safety but covers multiple activities including airsoft)

Their initial quote form for Airsoft does ask about chrono limits but does not ask about pre-game checks

 

http://www.cossioinsurance.com/

 

https://youtube.com/@cossioinsurance1558?si=mLLlStU8w1OCFpqW

 

 

 Back in the day I regularly played at a rental site, and it was this site that we first ran events.

On rental days they did not chronograph as a matter of routine as own gunners were rare.  (and it meant taking out the big red chrono to do so)

We were first checked by shooting at the magic chrono tree with the head marshal looking at how our shots fired

Subsequently I brought my own chrono with me and grab a marshal to watch me use it

When we ran events I rewrote the rules and disclaimer*, we used chronos for a full pre - check, tag and 

 

* the existing disclaimer was useless for an own gunner event.  I was able to rewrite ‘all guns left on the rack before exiting to safe zone’ to ‘made safe, barrel blocker, turned off etc’ (exact wording varied). That as acceptable and did not breach their insurance terms.

We were running the first ever game under a scenario organiser collective with a common set of minimum rules, which included air safety training & issuing air passes for self fill.  I needed to do that to comply with the collectives rule set but the insurance explicitly required trained staff only to operate the fill station, so I could not allow self fills 

By the next year the site owner had the insurance policy updated, and we could fully run the air pass training & self fills

(He based adding this to the policy using my documentation, such as revised filling procedures - having the paintballs recognised national body UKPSF logo may have helped.   Perhaps his premiums were cheaper, or at least increase in premium was less than the income for more own gunners at events etc)

[Lyndication]

They should do mid game chrono checks where you empty your loaded mag for the BBs to be weighed.

 

If it doesn't match the claimed weight then they hang, draw, and quarter you in the safe zone during the lunch break.

[Cannonfodder]

19 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

yea thats her . i remember she claimed people where gang stalking her and stuff on the internet she used to hangaround with a guy called Basildon dave and some of the guys  that used to run a shop i remember her running IDF gear when one of the first TAR 21 came out probly late 2009 early 2010 

Wasn't she the one gobbing off on arnies about being police in Australia and that she personally stopped a mass shooting?

[Rogerborg]

On 02/06/2025 at 11:56, Tackle said:

I was weird though, she was like some kinda pied piper, considerably older than the rest of the team & constantly barking orders at them, which they happily followed.

 

Simping for a dommy mommy. 🤢

[Tackle]

49 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

Wasn't she the one gobbing off on arnies about being police in Australia and that she personally stopped a mass shooting?

Must've missed that, she was obviously an absolute Walt of the highest order 🤣

[mrfoxhound]

1 hour ago, Cannonfodder said:

Wasn't she the one gobbing off on arnies about being police in Australia and that she personally stopped a mass shooting?

i remember observing her have a big melt down on facebook claiming people where trolling her ,which turned into a large group of people gang stalking her on the internet and in real life , then she disappeared.... guess the gang stalkers got her 

[Colin Allen]

5 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

... and they dont know if people are cheating the chrono  

Which isn't really that different from the situation at the vast majority of sites.

"What weight are you using?"

"25s."

"Yeah, you're fine."

A) Player returns to his table and his bottle of 0.30g BBs.

or

B) When going out for the first game, Player resets his hop to where it should be.

You don't like the way AP do it, that is fine.  In all the times I have been there, I have never heard of anyone complaining about a potentially hot gun.

[mrfoxhound]

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

Which isn't really that different from the situation at the vast majority of sites.

"What weight are you using?"

"25s."

"Yeah, you're fine."

A) Player returns to his table and his bottle of 0.30g BBs.

or

B) When going out for the first game, Player resets his hop to where it should be.

You don't like the way AP do it, that is fine.  In all the times I have been there, I have never heard of anyone complaining about a potentially hot gun.

how would they know if they have a hot gun if no one Chronos .... not chrono anyone is lazy and  opens up the site to massive safety risk and consequences ..... your example is a classic of bad practice. but you can tell when people like that lie because of the chrono reading  

Edited Tuesday at 19:56 by mrfoxhound

[Colin Allen]

1 hour ago, mrfoxhound said:

your example is a classic of bad practice. but you can tell when people like that lie because of the chrono reading  

Err, no.  If someone's gun chronos at 310fps and they state that they have 0.25s in their mag, but are actually running 0.30s, it is very likely that they are going to get away with it at most sites, because very few sites check the power in addition to the velocity.

I use that example because I saw someone do it at a site; I ratted him out.

[mrfoxhound]

9 minutes ago, Colin Allen said:

Err, no.  If someone's gun chronos at 310fps and they state that they have 0.25s in their mag, but are actually running 0.30s, it is very likely that they are going to get away with it at most sites, because very few sites check the power in addition to the velocity.

I use that example because I saw someone do it at a site; I ratted him out.

cant rat anyone out at AP cos they dont chrono

thats a big failure on the person doing the chrono by only measuring on fps and would be a site i would avoid 

Edited Tuesday at 21:47 by mrfoxhound

[Colin Allen]

8 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

cant rat anyone out at AP cos they dont chrono

thats a big failure on the person doing the chrono by only measuring on fps and would be a site i would avoid 

You would be avoiding an awful lot of sites.

[Cannonfodder]

Ome of my old regular sites used to run in a similar fashion to how @Colin Allendescribed and didn't have marshals either and things ran fine. However I think it worked there as the site started as more like a group of friends meeting up to play rather than a commercial site.

 

At the end of the day the only way to completely eliminate any chance of anyone cheating the chrono is for sites to provide all guns and bbs, but we all know that's not going to happen. What can be done though is to put in procedures which increase the chances of catching anyone tempted to try so they either don't bother or go elsewhere.

 

12 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

i remember observing her have a big melt down on facebook claiming people where trolling her ,which turned into a large group of people gang stalking her on the internet and in real life , then she disappeared.... guess the gang stalkers got her 

That definitely rings a bell. Was the group TLA or ARABs?

[Rogerborg]

13 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

how would they know if they have a hot gun if no one Chronos ...

 

They provide a chrono so that players can check themselves.

 

 

13 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

thats a big failure on the person doing the chrono by only measuring on fps and would be a site i would avoid 

 

There seems to be some confusion here. If a site doesn't provide their own BBs or weigh the player's BBs, players can simply lie that we're using a lighter weight of BB than we're actually using.  It makes the Joules figures calculated by the chrono inaccurate.

 

A site that trusts players about what BB weight we're using might as well just ask us what energy our guns are producing. It's trivial for us to lie either way.

 

[Tommikka]

10 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

cant rat anyone out at AP cos they dont chrono

thats a big failure on the person doing the chrono by only measuring on fps and would be a site i would avoid 

All chronographing is by FPS

Anyone claiming to chrono in joules are  either a conversion formula within the chrono based on setting the claimed mass, or a reference chart of FPS to joules 

 

The ‘benefit’ of FPS chrono is that any weight can be chronoed without making changes to the settings 

 

Problems remain when chronoing with different BBs than playing, when not properly declaring the BB weight etc and especially when it is a lip service exercise 

[mrfoxhound]

2 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

Ome of my old regular sites used to run in a similar fashion to how @Colin Allendescribed and didn't have marshals either and things ran fine. However I think it worked there as the site started as more like a group of friends meeting up to play rather than a commercial site.

 

At the end of the day the only way to completely eliminate any chance of anyone cheating the chrono is for sites to provide all guns and bbs, but we all know that's not going to happen. What can be done though is to put in procedures which increase the chances of catching anyone tempted to try so they either don't bother or go elsewhere.

 

That definitely rings a bell. Was the group TLA or ARABs?

your pushing my memory on the group name tla sound familiar

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

They provide a chrono so that players can check themselves.

 

 

 

There seems to be some confusion here. If a site doesn't provide their own BBs or weigh the player's BBs, players can simply lie that we're using a lighter weight of BB than we're actually using.  It makes the Joules figures calculated by the chrono inaccurate.

 

A site that trusts players what BB weight we're using might as well just ask us what energy our guns are producing. It's trivial for us to lie either way.

 

i would say joules is a good constant indicator of bb weight being used , i rock up to the chrono with my dmr and its doing 350 fps, its has to be using 0.30/32 at 1.7/1.8 anything more its breaking rules, depending on site rules of course , its down to the rock ape doing the chrono to have the knowledge  

Edited yesterday at 08:28 by mrfoxhound

[Colin Allen]

54 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

your pushing my memory on the group name tla sound familiar

i would say joules is a good constant indicator of bb weight being used , i rock up to the chrono with my dmr and its doing 350 fps, its has to be using 0.30/32 at 1.7/1.8 anything more its breaking rules, depending on site rules of course , its down to the rock ape doing the chrono to have the knowledge  

That “rock ape” is possibly having to chrono 100+ players, many of whom have more than one gun to chrono.  Having done that job at two different sites, you have to take some of what you are told on trust and assume that players have not dialed the hop up as far as it will go, which does leave the process open to abuse.

 

However, the key point is that the vast majority of sites only look at the velocity limit for the declared weight.

 

Random in game sampling including weighing of BBs is possibly the best approach and certainly provides a deterrent, especially when the penalty is to be sent home.

 

One of the things that I really like about AP is that they stick to what they say in the briefing.  Unlike so many sites, they do not hesitate to send people home if they ignore warnings about hit taking, MED abuse and other poor behaviour.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, mrfoxhound said:

i rock up to the chrono with my dmr and its doing 350 fps, its has to be using 0.30/32 at 1.7/1.8 anything more its breaking rules

 

It would be even handier if the ape says "I hope you're not using more than 0.3g, mate, or you'll have to put it back in the bag", so that the player can just nod and confirm "Yeah, mate, yeah, I'm using whatever you just said" without even having to make up a weight themselves.

 

The reality is that measing velocity, but not mass, is like proving a car is efficient by providing fuel receipts, then saying "Trust me bro" about the taped-over odometer.