Should more sites weigh the bbs during chrono?

[JVacation]

In reality it is quite easy to cheat the chrono by just saying you are using a different bb weight than you are actually using.

 

Some sites make you chrono and then take a single bb from the mag you used and weigh it. I understand it would take longer but it is something that would be good to see become the "standard". 

 

Thoughts? 

[BigStew]

That's why you measure by joules. If a person says they are using a lighter weight BB than they are the gun will chrono hot.

Edited yesterday at 12:30 by BigStew

[Jez_Armstrong]

20 minutes ago, JVacation said:

In reality it is quite easy to cheat the chrono by just saying you are using a different bb weight than you are actually using.

 

Some sites make you chrono and then take a single bb from the mag you used and weigh it. I understand it would take longer but it is something that would be good to see become the "standard". 

 

Thoughts? 

If you're going into the game already wanting to cheat then airsoft isn't for you

[JVacation]

1 hour ago, BigStew said:

That's why you measure by joules. If a person says they are using a lighter weight BB than they are the gun will chrono hot.

That's not true.

 

If you turn up to the chrono and say you are using a 0.2g; the fps limit will the be 350 with joules at 1.13j and that's what the person doing the chrono will be checking. 

If you have a mag of 0.32g instead which is firing at 350 fps the joules is at 1.82j
 

48 minutes ago, Jez_Armstrong said:

If you're going into the game already wanting to cheat then airsoft isn't for you

Unfortunately it happens

[Galvatron]

Whether you think it's good or bad, sites will test to what their insurers require of them. Your proposed chrono test can still be cheated by players testing with X weight ammo but playing with a heavier weight where joule creep would fail the test.

 

There's no logistically fool-proof test so trust is a key part of the process. If the chrono test passes a player who then gets caught in play above the joule limit, that liability is on the player as they can be prosecuted for assault with a hot weapon.

 

[Rogerborg]

Sites should be chronoing with their own BBs, not trusting players at all. They should also be checking that some hop is applied, and spot checking in-game, given how easy it is to increase power with springs, gas or regulator adjustments.

 

But that would require preparation to maintain a selection of speedloaders, and to tell players to leave room in their mags.  Most sites don't even check tags during the day, let alone actual muzzle energy.  There are some very rare exceptions, like the Depot, demonstrating that it can be done when the site runner and marshals actually care.

[Galvatron]

7 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

They should also be checking that some hop is applied, and spot checking in-game, given how easy it is to increase power with springs, mags or regulator adjustments.

 

Yes, totally agreed with spot checking. Especially with the transition from a cool morning to a warm/hot afternoon, I have seen some GBBR users go above the limit in the spot check despite passing the chrono test.

 

There was one HPA user who gave a marshal a bit of grief over being asked to ensure his regulator was locked when the marshal noticed it hadn't been after passing him on the test.

[LMKipper]

In truth nothing is foolproof. I've been to places that give you ammo, tag your RIF etc but there would be nothing stopping me turning up an NPAS or similar in the field. I played first time round about 20 years ago, then got back into it recently, and I've never been spot-checked in the field. The only thing I've ever seen that was lairy was at DogTag last summer: a guy chronoed as a DMR (he was right in front of me in the queue), then in the field I clocked he was firing full-auto. I told a marshall, they spoke to him and reported back to me that he had turned off the semi-lock on his mosfet. They sent him home instantly.

 

I do some marshalling at a site in the SE when I'm free and often run the chrono. Do the same checks in the chrono, tag the RIFS (and regs for HPA) then eyeball everyone out of the safezone to make sure everything is marked up. When I go out into the gaming area, I take a chrono out in my pocket and I have spot-checked people. I've yet to come across anyone doing anything silly like adjusting power post-chrono.

 

 

[Rogerborg]

51 minutes ago, Galvatron said:

ensure his regulator was locked

 

"locked"

 

 

26 minutes ago, LMKipper said:

there would be nothing stopping me turning up an NPAS or similar in the field

 

Spot checking, in the field, with site BBs.

 

Good on you for doing that. More sites should, because anything else is chrono theatre, a way for players to find out if we're likely to fail in-game testing. Most players aren't going to be a problem, so most spot checks will be fine. But there are going to be some rogues, and the goal should be to identify and eject them. If everybody could be trusted, then chrono wouldn't be necessary, right?

 

I mention the Depot as I was spot checked there, and they punted one of their marshals for running hot. I even saw the site runner getting checked by his own marshals once in game - although presumably he'd have had to pick himself up by his own collar and... uh... toss himself off.

[Cannonfodder]

In the 20 years I've been playing I don't think I've ever had my balls weighed. It's normally a case of being asked what weight I'm using and the guy chronoing to accept it. Sometimes they'll use their own bbs and watch the flightpath of the shot to make sure it doesn't go straight up after 10 yards.

 

Unfortunately the only sure fire way to prevent people from cheating the chrono is for sites to insist everyone uses their ammo and gas which is only going to drive players away. All that can really be done is to make it such a faff to attempt to cheat that it puts those who want to off and for players to be alert to anyone playing silly buggers. It would also help if sites are seen to be doing something when a cheat is found no matter who they are. I'm sure we've all seen or heard of people cheating and getting away with it as they're a regular and mates with the owner

Edited 14 hours ago by Cannonfodder

[LMKipper]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

Spot checking, in the field, with site BBs.

 

Sorry yes what I meant was there's nothing to prevent me (or anyone), other than the threat of being caught. Ultimately, it's very very difficult to completely prevent people from cheating if they really want to. You just have to do everything you can to make it not worth it.

[GiantKiwi]

4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

There are some very rare exceptions, like the Depot, demonstrating that it can be done when the site runner and marshals actually care.

 

Doesn't work there either. My one and only visit, had multiple people running Saiga's through chrono on the site 0.2's, then using way above the permitted 0.25's on joule creep, resulting in bb's punching through facemasks at 20ft. One of the players was a marshal, and didn't get spot checked once all day despite multiple complaints. Meanwhile, anyone who made a complaint spent the rest of the day getting spot checked every 15 minutes, despite many of us being well under the limit.

Edited yesterday at 18:14 by GiantKiwi

[mrfoxhound]

yes

[Colin Allen]

Airsoft Plantation randomly chrono on the field before games start; they are now also weighing a sample of BBs from each chrono'd gun.

Edited 12 hours ago by Colin Allen

[Baser]

The local indoor CQB site chrono with their .20 ammo which is great as typical max engagement distance is 2-5m so they need to be extra sure you aren’t running a hot gun. You can run up to .25 for the game, the safe zone is so small you would be spotted pouring BB’s out of a .28/.30 tub (assuming you were stupid enough to bring them in the original packet)

 

The woodland site is based on trust and will re chrono you if other players let the Marshall know they think you are running hot. 
 

Personally no idea if/how they weight the BB’s you use, I have 2xAEG’s which chrono around 320-330 fps on .20 so never been re chrono’ed on field. 
 

There are obvious and easy ways to cheat the system but as Jez said above if you cheat from the start airsoft isn’t really for you.