What do you look for in a good CQB site?

[JinxDuh]

Sorry if not the right section, wasn't sure where it would belong.

 

Those of you brave souls that play CQB, what makes you think "Wow, I love this site"?

 

What do you wish more CQB sites would do/have?

 

How do CQB sites "change it up" so it's not 3 hours of just straight shooting at each other?

 

A local site has offered my "team" (Used loosely, we're just a large group of friends) the opportunity to use their CQB section whilst they run paintball games to do some more relaxed pew pewing, but would love to make it fun for us and looking for ideas on how we could "spice it up" 🤔

 

 

 

[Lozart]

Having been spoiled by playing at The Mall I find all "proper" CQB sites to be far too small. And full of speedsofters.

[JinxDuh]

3 minutes ago, Lozart said:

speedsofters

 

Ban all speedsofters, got it! 😂

[Cannonfodder]

Multiple access routes. Games turning a stalemate because nobody can move forward and there's no way of flanking or taking alternative routes get boring fast, especially if that choke point means one person can keep an entire team pinned in one spot

[Tackle]

Yep, bottlenecks can destroy a site's reputation early on, something they don't always recover from.

[Tommikka]

31 minutes ago, JinxDuh said:

 

 

1)What do you wish more CQB sites would do/have?

 

2)How do CQB sites "change it up" so it's not 3 hours of just straight shooting at each other?

 

 

 

1) Change:

A series of rooms/corridors quickly becomes boring once people have planned out known routes and angles

It is very dependant on the construction, but ideally you would have elements to open and block off routes - if a ‘real’ building then open/close doorways

 

avoid actually locking them for safety - but have a rule such as a closed door cannot be opened (unless ‘breaching’ is part of the game) eg tape over and the door becomes a wall

 

If a zone is constructed with board and doorways/corridors are fairly consistent in size then extra boards could be slotted in/hung up to close a route

 

2) have objectives

Find a thing, retrieve it or deliver it

Find multiple things - parts of a device or a bomb that needs a key or code to disarm 

Have time trials - complete it in the quickest time 

Have simulated missions - eg don’t play against each other but have one person set up targets (friendly and unfriendly).  Then run time trials to clear unfriendlies with a penalty for eliminating a friendly 

A similar manner without one person knowing the target layout is multi context targets - (a basic target with shapes and colours)

pick a shape / colour combination target then time trial that

 

Layout design - we all think we know what is ‘wrong’ with any zones layout, but usually are not taking into account the game context.

You would have thought that a fort would not have great big wide entrances and that towers would not have wide open backs - these are both design features to make a fort attackable in a game 

When designing make sure that there are defendable points that can be attacked

Otherwise one good defender in a fortress turns a game into the worst day for attackers as opposed to one good defender bedded in that can be flanked and eventually defeated

Both winners and losers should walk out smiling, and a well balanced site and its games should give a mix of winning / losing. 

Soeedsoft is a very good point

 

CQB lends itself well to fast aggressive play, whereas tactical slowness tends to be the right thing in reality to stay alive it does not achieve anything in a reasonable time 

 

The classic cosplay tactical airsofter will stack up at a corner, and unless a group who have practiced CQB together will bottle neck themselves 

The speedsofter will run past them, spray a room, then respawn while the next speedsoft behind them clears the next room

 

If that becomes a problem in your game format then the penalties for being eliminated need to be greater (one life games?) and the same goes for taking too long stacked up (time limited games)

[MistakenMexican]

1 hour ago, JinxDuh said:

Sorry if not the right section, wasn't sure where it would belong.

 

Those of you brave souls that play CQB, what makes you think "Wow, I love this site"?

 

What do you wish more CQB sites would do/have?

 

How do CQB sites "change it up" so it's not 3 hours of just straight shooting at each other?

 

A local site has offered my "team" (Used loosely, we're just a large group of friends) the opportunity to use their CQB section whilst they run paintball games to do some more relaxed pew pewing, but would love to make it fun for us and looking for ideas on how we could "spice it up" 🤔

 

 

 

For me, there’s core things I look for at any site (maybe not entirely applicable given I’ve read your post for a second time more thoroughly. 

 

Decent/present marshalling.

Amicable and honest regular players.

 

Other things I look for are:p

Addressing of bottle necks:

 

For example stair cases and long corridors are absolute meat grinders and not fun for anyone who doesn’t have a foothold. Lots of these problems can be solved with intermediate barriers that favour the team who’s disadvantaged.

 

Innovative or humorous games:

 

I've played a few sites with fun or different objective based games. For example, retrieving objectives from a helicopter or having to carry a mannequin from one point to another. You’ve got to be careful not to make it too complex as some of us listening to the brief have the attention span of a goldfish.

 

Layout:

 

sort of inline with the bottleneck point - sites need to have multiple access routes. Having multiple stair cases to an objective gives teams options for tactics. If it’s just one route in and out, it becomes a meat grinder.

 

one of the best sites I’ve played at recently was the Fireplace in Milton Keynes - the site is very small. But set out as a multifaceted kill house, so in all circumstances, the site can be opened up or closed off to funnel players or free up movement.

[Fatboy40]

1 hour ago, Lozart said:

Having been spoiled by playing at The Mall I find all "proper" CQB sites to be far too small. And full of speedsofters.

 

The prime reason why I now rarely play at my most local site, where it's somewhat become a battle of who has the fittest people who can sprint on their team and claim the areas that cause bottlenecks 

 

I'd 100% play The Mall if it still existed as Z-Mart is great but it's too dark and scary for me (I'm a wimp).

[LMKipper]

A nice feature that Invicta has at the black site is small holes cut in the base of walls/barriers. They explicitly state you can't shoot through these (A4 paper rule) but you can post a grenade through it. The result is that most rooms that are a nightmare to get into because of a small doorway are quickly neutralised when you roll a grenade through the small gap.

[Cannonfodder]

One thing I've noticed more cqb sites doing is restricting the number of pyros people can carry. As much as I like tossing bangs around I like this rule as it stops games turning into a game of who can afford the most pyros

[Galvatron]

I couldn't agree more about multiple access points to reduce the likelihood of bottlenecks.

 

I would also also suggest trying to find a balance of access points as a given layout can give the attacking team a huge tactical advantage against the defending team and vice versa. If opposing teams have 5 acess points (for argument's sake) each, the lighting, distance between points, terrain, etc, can contribute to an imbalance.

[Krisz]

4 hours ago, JinxDuh said:

 

Ban all speedsofters, got it! 😂

Without them indoor sites couldn't survive though. Speedsofters are absolutely essential part of the playerbase. Majority of them are sound and the rest is taken care of by the marshalls.

 

In my experience the terminators (lads with 5kg gear on them) fight a lot more and getting into arguments with others simply because they don't feel or hear anything. I don't know how many times I saw people to pack up because marshalls had enough of their bullshit.

 

Indoor is all about speed and aggressive playstyle. If people aren't fit to keep up with teenagers/speedsofters they shoudn't blame others. Buddy, moan less and spend more time in the gym.👍

There is this delusion when airsofters think airsoft has anything with reality and they try to apply some muppet cqb video from yt and it turns out it doesn't work because:

 

a.)people are turn up to have fun and they don't give a fuck how many times they "die" and

b.)being aggressive wins gunfights because you control angles and access to certain areas.

Answering your question after my rant...

It's very difficult to balance out an indoor site to 50-50. I don't even know if it's possible because usually you have asymmetric layouts so one side is always gonna be more easy to push from. I think when you have barricades, tyres, half walls etc. it may slow down the flow just a tiny bit.

 

But if you and your team are dead set on realism then there is no point because none of you gonna yolo and speedrun several rooms like a teenager would after a can of monster.
 

Edited October 7 by Krisz

[Cannonfodder]

53 minutes ago, Krisz said:

Without them indoor sites couldn't survive though. Speedsofters are absolutely essential part of the playerbase

Are they though? In my experience speedsofters are a minority, I'd even say that their numbers are greater at woodland sites. Also many sites have banned speedsoft as a playing style and are still going strong.

 

I do agree that not all speedsofters are arseholes, it just seems that arseholes are attracted to the speedsoft playing style.

[hunter511]

As above I've seen more consistantly questionable play from skinny yoots in jeggings and hpa'd capa's in gopping colourways.

 

Also Ive seen more speedsofters turn up to organised and specified milsim days and expect to be allowed to use their hpa murderbox rigs than milsim players turn up to speedsoft sites and insist everyone uses non-winding mags for example.

 

Unfortunately the bell-ends in both styles ruin it for everyone else who is capable of playing by the rules.

Edited October 7 by hunter511

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Krisz said:

Without them indoor sites couldn't survive though. Speedsofters are absolutely essential part of the playerbase.
 

 

 

1 hour ago, Cannonfodder said:

Are they though? In my experience speedsofters are a minority, I'd even say that their numbers are greater at woodland sites.

I’m not so experienced in airsoft, just having run some airsoft games at one particular site, run mini games at a major event which in some years ran both paintball and airsoft in parallel, been involved in publicity for a society and have seen airsofters at a few sites.

 

The bread and butter of a site is its local population, and balances between one off/occasional rentals and a regular crowd.

An ‘event’ can be themed and aimed at a particular flavour - but is dependant on a customer base that wants to play that flavour.

 

The regular crowd is likely to consist of those people who are local which means they will want to play their preferred style.  On these types of days in both airsoft and paintball I have always seen a mix of the woodland, military cosplay, stitch counters, speeders, casuals etc and a local crowd may happen to tip to one or a couple of these.

Among all of the above there are the elitists and those who want some fun.  Quite often there are individuals who span a variety and but may have the look of only one on the day

56 minutes ago, hunter511 said:

 

 

Unfortunately the bell-ends in both styles ruin it for everyone else who is capable of playing by the rules.

Arseholes are arseholes

 

What will make or break a site is how the staff and regulars handle the arseholes

(and whether or not they are the arseholes)

[Krisz]

2 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

Are they though? In my experience speedsofters are a minority, I'd even say that their numbers are greater at woodland sites. Also many sites have banned speedsoft as a playing style and are still going strong.

 

I do agree that not all speedsofters are arseholes, it just seems that arseholes are attracted to the speedsoft playing style.

I only played indoor in the last 4 years and some sites are more filled with speedsofters than others. It really boils down who the regulars are and if the marshalls apply favouritism towards them. Speedsofters play a lot more in tournaments and stuff like that if they're really into competition. But UK scene is very small compared to US for obvious reasons.

 

Banning speedsoft feels stupid for so many reasons but it's not my business so more power to them I guess. If this makes people happy so be it.

 

I rarely have or had problems with them but that's true about the 99% of the people I see when I play. If someone can't behave and it's not addressed straight away that's always on the marshalls...

Edited October 7 by Krisz

[Cannonfodder]

You're right that the number of speedsofters will vary from site to site, it must be that the ones I attend don't have very many. 

 

32 minutes ago, Krisz said:

Speedsofters play a lot more in tournaments

Would I be right thinking these tournaments are closer to paintball tournaments where things like pre firing are allowed? If so problems are going to arise when these tactics are used on a regular skirmish. 

25 minutes ago, Krisz said:

Banning speedsoft feels stupid

For a normal skirmish I actually agree with you there, ban the arsehole not the kit as they're the problem. 

[Pseudotectonic]

(Not based on any particular site)

1. Level design: loops, lanes, options, variety, etc which allow strategic options, each area can have different environmental pro/cons for certain builds / play styles, options is king
2. Cover design: crouch, prone, odd openings, jump over, parkour, etc which allow multiple tactical options for every situation, again options is king
3. Scenic design: overall art direction and narrative, identity of each room and building and object, good lighting design, good acoustic design, good prop design, immersion, instagramibility, interactive props and objectives etc that are fun to use, I want to be able to larp at least in my head
4. Comfort and convenience: overall cleanliness, comfy safe zone, maintenance, ventilation, ease of navigation etc
5. Admin: how the game is orchestrated, vibe, atmosphere etc

[JinxDuh]

Thank you everybody for your answers! The CQB section will be built outside, as the land is all exterior. Most likely a large sized kill house, not aiming for anything hyper fancy!

 

Definitely like the idea of modular panels so it can all be adjusted to suit needs. I think having numerous door ways would allow for different routes and paths. 

 

As for marshalling, that will be my main focus. After all, no matter how good the site is if it's ran like shit, people won't return. People are there for a good time, and if somebody wants to stop that then they'll be removed asap!

 

Definitely going to be a learning curve but looking forwards to the challenge, hopefully the site owner is happy too and it creates him some more money 😂

 

 

[Tommikka]

32 minutes ago, JinxDuh said:

 

 

As for marshalling, that will be my main focus.

Marshalling CQB is particularly difficult 

In the best CQB environment Marshall’s can’t see what’s happening unless you have hundreds of them 

 

My ideal is the killhouse at NPF Bassets Pole.

There is an overhead observation platform, and my preferred method to Marshall it was to put Marshall’s up above, with one inside (me)

Those up above enabled observation of gameplay and to keep eyes out for safety, rule compliance and the combination of explicit / implicit game manipulation (directing players to each other)

Me inside provided action photography and someone on the ground for action being directed by those above

Any more hands available then also be on the ground around the outside 

 

 

There was also the dry year when the use of pyro was banned throughout the site - except for me - I’m ‘responsible’ so I was allowed my SFX pyro, and had containers of water throughout the killhouse

 

 

(It rained Saturday night which then enabled it to be allowed for the main Sunday game)

[JinxDuh]

1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

overhead observation platform

That was the plan I was thinking of for the sake of observing!

 

 

[Galvatron]

2 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

One thing I've noticed more cqb sites doing is restricting the number of pyros people can carry. As much as I like tossing bangs around I like this rule as it stops games turning into a game of who can afford the most pyros

 

When it was running, RIFT Airsoft's Battery CQB (mix of indoor and outdoor) site didn't allow pyro at all in part because of that concern. Though there were multiple access points, it would have been all too easy to turn most (if not all) of them into choke points when there were more than 20 or so players on each side.

 

In the (outdoor) CQB section of its Redcon site, pyro's only real restrictions that I recall are underarm throwing and that you can't throw blindly. The entrances/exits of it force you to advance to throw pyro in a useful area and thus expose yourself to oncoming fire.

[Krisz]

10 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

You're right that the number of speedsofters will vary from site to site, it must be that the ones I attend don't have very many. 

 

Would I be right thinking these tournaments are closer to paintball tournaments where things like pre firing are allowed? If so problems are going to arise when these tactics are used on a regular skirmish. 

For a normal skirmish I actually agree with you there, ban the arsehole not the kit as they're the problem. 

I don't know anything about tournament rules but all of these things has to come from somewhere. The main issue with some speedsofters that when they turn up for a normal skirmish and they try to apply competetiveness (overshooting, prefiring, jump shots etc.) and other people are gonna irritated by them very fast. More importantly they break all of the rules because they have to "win" at any cost.

 

It's very similar when a dude is so immersed in main character syndrome that he doesn't care about other people wellbeing anymore and he yeets or tries to chuck half of kilo stainless steel pyro across multiple rooms.
 

 

Edited October 8 by Krisz

[LMKipper]

Of the few times I have been 'overkilled' it has been a bloke with an AAP-01 on HPA, who has run around a corner trigger spamming in the hope some would hit me. It's tough isn't it because ultimately people do 'speedsoft' because it's a very effective tactic when attacking. If you just run in and trade, that's a defender down. Rinse repeat.

 

I guess the only thing I would add is that perhaps long respawn times are a way of preventing this. If it's a long walk to respawn or there are timers, then it's not in your interest to get knocked out instantly. Come to think of it one CQB place I played it did their attack/defend on how many respawns were taken to knock out the defenders, rather than how long it took. Encourages slightly more conservative gameplay - if that's what your site and your customers want.

 

[Cannonfodder]

6 hours ago, Krisz said:

I don't know anything about tournament rules but all of these things has to come from somewhere. The main issue with some speedsofters that when they turn up for a normal skirmish and they try to apply competetiveness (overshooting, prefiring, jump shots etc.) and other people are gonna irritated by them very fast. More importantly they break all of the rules because they have to "win" at any cost.

Over killing and prefiring are exactly the sort of thing I mean. I takes bugger all skill to just finger bang a hair trigger and spray shots everywhere than it does to take aimed shots and is guaranteed to piss people off. 

 

6 hours ago, Krisz said:

It's very similar when a dude is so immersed in main character syndrome that he doesn't care about other people wellbeing anymore and he yeets or tries to chuck half of kilo stainless steel pyro across multiple rooms.

True, but in my experience it's more likely that the guy with the day glow hi cappa adapted to take M4 mags that'll be the problem

 

4 hours ago, LMKipper said:

I guess the only thing I would add is that perhaps long respawn times are a way of preventing this. If it's a long walk to respawn or there are timers, then it's not in your interest to get knocked out instantly

Unfortunately the kind of person who's going to break site rules on spamming the trigger etc is also less likely to call a hit it it means a long walk to or wait at their respawn