UKAF and/or UKAPU

[DanBow]

I've done a search but, apart from one thread about how someone has become a rep for UKAPU, I can't find any information about the above.

 

So, United Kingdom Airsoft Federation and United Kingdom Airsoft Players Union, are they both/either an active force for good in our sport? Are there any actual benefits to either? A discount is good but that's not what we need.

 

I am a member of both, UKAPU as a Bronze free member, as I agree that we need something to represent our interests at a bigger, national level. I used to shoot full bore pistol and centre fire rifle but due to a lack of a cohesive argument, a massive media frenzy and politicians that will push knee jerk reaction to ensure that they get the votes rather than looking at the actual facts, we lost it and still losing it every year with more draconian measures being forced on legitimate law abiding shooters . . . sorry, started ranting a bit!

 

What are peoples thoughts, experiences of the above?

 

EDIT: just found this post 

 

Edited February 17 by DanBow
missing information

[mightyjebus]

I think the person with the most confirmed hits or the biggest gun collection should represent airsoft, not some bunch of blokes who feel important enough to start their own "body" and like John Snow, know nothing.

[Pseudotectonic]

My opinion has not changed about UKAPU, functionally they are a facebook group that does nothing other than holding AGMs and charging people monthly fee in preparation for a mythical prophecy that one day some legal apocalypse might happen that is when they will save the day.

 

--

 

If one were to go back to the drawing board, and think of what an actually useful organisation would do, their mission would include fundamentally three things:

 

1. Represent and Promote
2. Regulate and Enhance
3. Organise and Facilitate

 

1. Represent and Promote: is basically PR activities (and lobbying, if necessary) for the hobby

2. Regulate and Enhance: is R&D into the nature and rules of the hobby, and developing best practices and codes and so on, to improve safety and fun

3. Organise and Facilitate: is basically running forums, or running events, that can benefit the hobby as a whole

 

--

 

If we judge UKAPU by these measurements, I don't think they are too effective in any of these

 

[DanBow]

Having just read the absolute trainwreck thread "Opinions on UKAPU", I think this one can be locked and I'll ask a different question!

 

Can a mod lock this please?

[Dan Robinson]

The first two are covered by the universal law of "don't be a genital".

 

The third one is more or less covered by private enterprise and forums such as this.

 

Seems that once hit critical mass it tends to turn to shyte - NAF seems to cover this by all accounts.

[Cannonfodder]

4 hours ago, DanBow said:

are they both/either an active force for good in our sport?

No. Not that they're a force for bad either, to be either they would have to actually do something

 

4 hours ago, DanBow said:

Are there any actual benefits to either

Again no

[John_W]

5 hours ago, mightyjebus said:

I think the person with the most confirmed hits or the biggest gun collection should represent airsoft, not some bunch of blokes who feel important enough to start their own "body" and like John Snow, know nothing.

Surely it should be Dr David "Dee Dee" Sheldrake with his PhD from Harvard in Wound Balistics?

[Colin Allen]

6 hours ago, mightyjebus said:

I think the person with the most confirmed hits or the biggest gun collection should represent airsoft, not some bunch of blokes who feel important enough to start their own "body" and like John Snow, know nothing.

How about its highest profile player?  You know, that chap with all the YouTube videos that get massive numbers of views.

[Asomodai]

7 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

My opinion has not changed about UKAPU, functionally they are a facebook group that does nothing other than holding AGMs and charging people monthly fee in preparation for a mythical prophecy that one day some legal apocalypse might happen that is when they will save the day.

 

--

 

If one were to go back to the drawing board, and think of what an actually useful organisation would do, their mission would include fundamentally three things:

 

1. Represent and Promote
2. Regulate and Enhance
3. Organise and Facilitate

 

1. Represent and Promote: is basically PR activities (and lobbying, if necessary) for the hobby

2. Regulate and Enhance: is R&D into the nature and rules of the hobby, and developing best practices and codes and so on, to improve safety and fun

3. Organise and Facilitate: is basically running forums, or running events, that can benefit the hobby as a whole

 

--

 

If we judge UKAPU by these measurements, I don't think they are too effective in any of these

 

 

 

Out of interest, what is this monthly fee you speak of?

 

Bronze membership is free, silver and gold has a small yearly fee.

Edited February 17 by Asomodai

[Pseudotectonic]

I was referencing the membership "donation" and to their claimed purpose of "Preservation of UK airsoft" and "worked tirelessly to protect UK airsoft form various attempts to ban or overly restrict airsoft by the government and police" which frankly is pure horseshit, excuse my language

 

If I say I "work all day and night keeping bad juju at bay so the world is safe for everybody to live in" and ask people to setup standing orders to give me £3 a year they'd put me away

[Asomodai]

41 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

I was referencing the membership "donation" and to their claimed purpose of "Preservation of UK airsoft" and "worked tirelessly to protect UK airsoft form various attempts to ban or overly restrict airsoft by the government and police" which frankly is pure horseshit, excuse my language

 

If I say I "work all day and night keeping bad juju at bay so the world is safe for everybody to live in" and ask people to setup standing orders to give me £3 a year they'd put me away

 

There is an argument to be had that proactively trying to protect airsoft by getting it fully recognised as a sport/hobby (A-la paintball) Can also lead to the downfall of Airsoft (Peeking up above the legal parapet). Many Airsofter's prefer to just deal with legal issues as and when they arise so UKAPU has more often than not been reactive rather than proactive. When a problem has presented itself that UKAPU can solve, they have worked to deal with it.

 

Also I would like you to correct the "Monthly fee" as it is categorically false. 

Edited February 17 by Asomodai

[Pseudotectonic]

lol so it's true they do absolutely nothing and then lie about it on their page to lure people to donate?

 

that is fraud, you know

[Asomodai]

15 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

lol so it's true they do absolutely nothing and then lie about it on their page to lure people to donate?

 

that is fraud, you know

 

I feel your bias against UKAPU means that regardless what I say that is positive, wouldn't make a lick of difference to your opinion. I see nothing that they are lying about on their page. People ask for help and UKAPU give it. You're seeing what you want to see. 

 

UKAPU helped me when I had my own problems with Border Force, hence why I joined and pay for a membership. I couldn't comment on anyone else's experiences.

Edited February 17 by Asomodai

[DanBow]

10 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

UKAPU helped me when I had my own problems with Border Force, hence why I joined and pay for a membership. I couldn't comment on anyone else's experiences

 

So you've got first hand experience. Care to elaborate?

[Asomodai]

10 minutes ago, DanBow said:

 

So you've got first hand experience. Care to elaborate?

 

 

Border Force confiscated a Real Sword T97B from Greece and marked it for destruction despite having a UKARA number on the package. It was one of the first instances of that happening (With a valid UKARA on the package). David at UKAPU advised me on what to do in terms of chasing up, the wording I should and (Crucially) should not use in my communications. I managed to eventually get my T97B. If I didn't follow the advice given it would either have taken me longer or the T97B could have been destroyed. 

 

More detail on what happened here. 

 

 

Edited February 17 by Asomodai

[Pseudotectonic]

I mean, their claim of "Preservation of UK airsoft" is obviously a lie, because if it is true, they would have at least some evidence to show for it, but there is zero evidence of this. And UK airsoft is not under any threat that needs any entity to work "tirelessly" to preserve. If they work tirelessly, what exactly are they doing tirelessly?

[Asomodai]

10 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

I mean, their claim of "Preservation of UK airsoft" is obviously a lie, because if it is true, they would have at least some evidence to show for it, but there is zero evidence of this. And UK airsoft is not under any threat that needs any entity to work "tirelessly" to preserve. If they work tirelessly, what exactly are they doing tirelessly?

 

The definition of Preservation is to stop is from decaying or something being eroded. There are instances where BF for example have tried to confiscate RIF's even with a valid Defense. UKAPU has managed to prevent that from happening. It happened to one other lad, whilst they weren't able to get the RIF's back, he did get a full refund. 

 

Keeping up to date on the relevant legislation but also how government bodies apply that is not exactly easy. UKAPU have recently discovered that BF have started testing RIFs for joule rating and have seized goods to that effect where they didn't before. 
 

Also discovered is that the new Firearms Act 2023 bill that is in progress could affect the way we use Primers and blank rounds. This is being monitored. 

UKAPU monitor press articles that mention airsoft and contacted editors and to acquire redactions. (One example being the Plymouth shooting back in 2021)

UKAPU contacts the home office when in need for clarification of the VCRA.

The HO took UKAPU's, Tim from ATB and UKARA concerns into account and put an exemption into an amendment through to the House of Lords back in 2016.

 

 

UKAPU have attended meetings with the EAF to foster an shared rules and values between other European Airsofting countries. This could set the groundwork for legitimisation of Airsoft. 

 

During the pandemic UKAPU were in contact with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport in regards to whether Airsoft could be considered for reopening during lockdowns whereas paintball was able to.

I am sure there are many other things that I am not aware about that UKAPU have done. 

I would also say at the moment there are no threats to Airsoft as a whole. However this could change with one politicised incident. But if you have an organisation that is on the look out for those threats and ready to jump in, that would be far better than something that is formed ad-hoc. Having UKAPU ready to defend Airsoft at a moments notice (With the funds to back it up), is better than a ragtag group of Airsofter's with no funds only being able to respond reactively. 

I would suggest the UKAPU is the best and most experienced group to defend Airsoft from a legal position. 

Edited February 18 by Asomodai

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

If airsoft can be classified as a sport, the legal ramifications would be very important.  Funding and grants would eb available and its future would be secured to an extent.

 

With all such groups, if you want to see them improve, you have to join and carry out the improvement yourself.  

[Asomodai]

11 minutes ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

If airsoft can be classified as a sport, the legal ramifications would be very important.  Funding and grants would eb available and its future would be secured to an extent.

 

With all such groups, if you want to see them improve, you have to join and carry out the improvement yourself.  

 

I think one of the biggest issues is that very few sites wants to beholden themselves to someone else calling the shots regarding a set of defined rules on how sites should be run. The idea of self-policing is rife in Airsoft. If the Airsoft community cannot present itself as a unified entity following a basic set of principles to present to the Government, then we will never get recognised as a legitimate activity/sport and be tied down this grey area where we could be considered illegal with the stroke of a pen. 

Edited February 18 by Asomodai

[Pseudotectonic]

Best you can do is do surveys of the rules of every field and publish a white paper on the findings, then you can think about how to draw similarities and think about pros and cons of unifying which rules at what costs and what impact

 

Then you can try to come up with one version of a regularised version of airsoft, publish it, and hope the fields will adopt it

 

the UKARA list of registered fields is a good starting point

 

You can set up a dedicated forum (somewhere outside facebook)

 

and then use it as a base of operation, do a program and recruit volunteers to complete chunks of surveys for you

 

and then have people write the stuff and publish it

 

But surely that is not part of the UKAPU's mission, they have got enough on their plate

 

You need a consortium for airsoft regularisation research (come up with a better name), for the sole mission of coming up with one version of a semi-improved airsoft ruleset, or some sort of standard framework for fields to adopt

 

Later on you can convince some fields for testing and also publish the experiment results and go from there

[Asomodai]

8 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Best you can do is do surveys of the rules of every field and publish a white paper on the findings, then you can think about how to draw similarities and think about pros and cons of unifying which rules at what costs and what impact

 

Then you can try to come up with one version of a regularised version of airsoft, publish it, and hope the fields will adopt it

 

the UKARA list of registered fields is a good starting point

 

You can set up a dedicated forum (somewhere outside facebook)

 

and then use it as a base of operation, do a program and recruit volunteers to complete chunks of surveys for you

 

and then have people write the stuff and publish it

 

But surely that is not part of the UKAPU's mission, they have got enough on their plate

 

You need a consortium for airsoft regularisation research (come up with a better name), for the sole mission of coming up with one version of a semi-improved airsoft ruleset, or some sort of standard framework for fields to adopt

 

Later on you can convince some fields for testing and also publish the experiment results and go from there

 

To do all of the above would take more people and funding that UKAPU currently generates. It's a chicken and egg scenario. UKAPU supports it's members first and have the resources to do so. But are currently not large enough or have the clout to represent the site owners or the commercial interests. 

 

However attempts have been made in the past to work with organisations like ATB, UKARA and UKPSF who have represented site owners and the commercial arm of Airsoft. 

 

ATB collapsed due to power struggles/inactivity (And has been reborn as the UKAF under the tutelage of one of the people involved at the time).

 

UKARA still exists but will only cooperate to further their commercial aims. At one point Frank at FS wanted sole control of ALL of the importation of Airsoft RIFs (Making Fire Support and friends the only game in town) so that the average person and small retailers not a part of UKARA could not import. 

 

https://airsoftodyssey.blogspot.com/2013/11/vcra-reboot-proposals.html?m=1

 

UKPSF represents a number of sites that run both Paintball and Airsoft. Whom UKAPU do have communications with. But (This is my own personal guess) UKPSF as the larger organisation tend to only communicate when legal issues threaten both sports. 

 

There have been many more organisations that have collapsed, mostly due to inactivity and power grabs by individuals. 

 

As to who should be the governing body of Airsoft? Players? Commercial entities? Sites owners? UKPSF got it right, whereas Airsoft is too fragmented.

 

Ideally it would be all three, but they tend to be in conflict with each other. (Unless there is a threat on Airsoft as a whole, see VCRA etc)

 

I tend to side with UKAPU because they at least seem to have a legal head on them and they have AGMs where members voices and suggestions are heard. UKAPU are not perfect and have had a chronic shortage of volunteers to fill committee positions which results in some mistakes, but they do have players interests at heart. 

Edited February 18 by Asomodai

[Pseudotectonic]

Just brainstorming but are there other airsoft bodies in other countries that are somewhat similar to a regulation body in that country? How are they shaped in relation to the triangle of retailers, site owners, and players?

 

Because let's say in the far future airsoft develops an international federation of its own, which is required for olympics (https://olympics.com/ioc/international-federations), it might be helpful to learn from other countries and their associations and it's never too early to start I suppose

 

Back to the UK, I think UKARA at least has a clear purpose and is functional.

 

It seems UKAPU is at least poised to sit in the players corner.

 

At the moment the site owners corner is vacant, because ATB/UKAF does not inspire a whole lot of confidence let alone looking competent enough.

 

I guess in order to research and develop some version of a federation airsoft we will at least need the player's corner and site owner's corner to co-lead the process (probably as a consortium), while having UKARA on the side as support because the growth of the sport also means growth of their profit. Because it needs to be a project that benefits everyone.

 

And if UKAF is non-functioning, it is all down to UKAPU to step up. But they don't seem to have the resources.

 

But I don't think the final result should be a governing body (at least not in the beginning), to even to start, we really just need the rules and definitions of the sport written on a piece of paper. It is largely just a white paper.

 

And the only thing to do afterwards is to wait for fields to adopt and players to adopt and for the hobby to catch up, and hopefully the benefits will be clear enough to become a de-facto adopted format of airsoft, then we can talk about regulating and governing.

--

 

I think we need AI to do the work

[Asomodai]

What also doesn't help are people who make unsubstantiated and untrue claims about UKAPU. Especially when they have performed little to no research on the subject. Whom when presented with counter evidence chooses to change the subject rather than admit they could be possibly be wrong 😉

 

 

29 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Just brainstorming but are there other airsoft bodies in other countries that are somewhat similar to a regulation body in that country? How are they shaped in relation to the triangle of retailers, site owners, and players?

 

Because let's say in the far future airsoft develops an international federation of its own, which is required for olympics (https://olympics.com/ioc/international-federations), it might be helpful to learn from other countries and their associations and it's never too early to start I suppose

 

Back to the UK, I think UKARA at least has a clear purpose and is functional.

 

It seems UKAPU is at least poised to sit in the players corner.

 

At the moment the site owners corner is vacant, because ATB/UKAF does not inspire a whole lot of confidence let alone looking competent enough.

 

I guess in order to research and develop some version of a federation airsoft we will at least need the player's corner and site owner's corner to co-lead the process (probably as a consortium), while having UKARA on the side as support because the growth of the sport also means growth of their profit. Because it needs to be a project that benefits everyone.

 

And if UKAF is non-functioning, it is all down to UKAPU to step up. But they don't seem to have the resources.

 

But I don't think the final result should be a governing body (at least not in the beginning), to even to start, we really just need the rules and definitions of the sport written on a piece of paper. It is largely just a white paper.

 

And the only thing to do afterwards is to wait for fields to adopt and players to adopt and for the hobby to catch up, and hopefully the benefits will be clear enough to become a de-facto adopted format of airsoft, then we can talk about regulating and governing.

--

 

I think we need AI to do the work

 

Not sure about Airsoft regulatory bodies overseas myself.

 

None of what you say above are new ideas. Just that there has been too much mudslinging between the player base to form an effective Union, UKARA vs Non UKARA complaint retailers (The latter of which are growing), and too many site owners who want to do things their own way. 

 

Our best chance to be unified was during the VCRA, but there was too much infighting. I imagine the next time something threatens airsoft as a whole will be the next best opportunity to unify. 

Edited February 18 by Asomodai

[Pseudotectonic]

Any facebook group can sell patches and claim to be sending emails and monitoring google, but it takes UKAPU to be claiming they "preserve UK airsoft" by sending some claim forms for you and defend airsoft (what even does that mean) with patch sales.

 

It will take a group of volunteers to begin to think about a new airsoft ruleset, but UKAPU is not it.

[Asomodai]

2 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Any facebook group can sell patches and claim to be sending emails and monitoring google, but it takes UKAPU to be claiming they "preserve UK airsoft" by sending some claim forms for you and defend airsoft (what even does that mean) with patch sales.

 

It will take a group of volunteers to begin to think about a new airsoft ruleset, but UKAPU is not it.

 

You really have a massive beef with UKAPU for some reason. You get the legal help for free with the Bronze Membership. The other things when dealing with the home office etc have helped Airsofter's even if you aren't a member. 

 

The only difference between a paid member and a non paid member is a patch or two. 

 

I gave a list of things they have done to preserve and defend Airsoft yet you completely ignore them and keep banging on with your rhetoric. Even if you don't think it doesn't amount to "defending" Airsoft, there is a fund within UKAPU to do just that if legal issues arise (As with VCRA 2016)

 

Your argument is without merit as you can't even acknowledge the things they have done which is plain to see. 

 

 

Edited February 18 by Asomodai