barrel, hop, and rubber question

[Rogerborg]

Hmm, that is interesting stuff, although as with all things airsoft, it's a miracle when the stars line up and these over-priced toys shoot at all.

 

Generally speaking all you need them to do is to shoot semi auto as soon as possible after pulling the trigger, which is what pre-cock does.  And then to fire as fast as possible between shots in "auto" mode, whether that's an unlimited burst, or an X-round one.  But that's more of an issue for the battery and motor than the mosfet, which really just needs to get out of the way of the current flow as much as possible.

 

Multiple modes would be nice for switching between sites or even games, but it only takes a few minutes to reprogram an AB++, including getting to it to push the magic button.

 

I get the technical appeal of knowing exactly how your electrics are performing.  In game though, actual performance is largely down to human reaction times in CQB, or not being seen in woodland.  Gun go brrrt, fun is had.

 

 

[Badgerlicious]

46 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

if i had a mosfet to test for myself, id be able to answer with a more experienced answer, but since ive only seen feature lists and a few videos, i can't really comment, but im sure there's room for a hell of a lot more things they can do.

 

as far as i can tell from what I've seen, with a mosfet, you're bound to either semi or full auto, with no option to switch firing modes using the selector switch, but again, i don't have one and cant comment fully, so I'm basing it entirely off of what I've seen in videos.

 

giving the switch the ability to change fire modes using the brains of the mosfet with some built in memory, you'd be able to have multiple modes, and have each mode have its own fire rate, pre-cocking and active braking etc, which isn't something ive noticed as being a thing on the current selection (ive only seen titans, ab++ and warfets being used in build video's thus far) 

 

having a sensored brushless motor that the mosfet can communicate with, so the mosfet knows what position the rotor is at, and can have the option for different levels of ''boost'' or ''overclocking'' and even as far as being able to change the degree of the sensors, so it can do more for free (with the potential of the magnets inside it to explode magnificently if it isnt done properly)

 

enabling the use of data logging for temperature monitoring, and a few other metrics would be good, but thats the nerdy shit that the average player doesnt care about... i could go on, but 

 

Well, that's kind of what titans and some other ETU's do, with an app to make changes and data logging, knowing where the sector gear is etc. You just can't do that with a dumb circuit the ab++ is designed to fit in to. 

 

Also is ~£100 for a uniquely form factored brushless motor with an esc that bad? From my brief stint in the RC world it seems... reasonable. 

[Adolf Hamster]

 

56 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

as far as i can tell from what I've seen, with a mosfet, you're bound to either semi or full auto, with no option to switch firing modes using the selector switch, but again, i don't have one and cant comment fully, so I'm basing it entirely off of what I've seen in videos.

 

you mean like having burst fire? because there's a few will do that.

 

most will only be able to do 2 selections, given it's relatively rare to have an airsoft pew with a 3-position selector (that is 3 firing modes+safe).

 

59 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

giving the switch the ability to change fire modes using the brains of the mosfet with some built in memory, you'd be able to have multiple modes, and have each mode have its own fire rate, pre-cocking and active braking etc, which isn't something ive noticed as being a thing on the current selection (ive only seen titans, ab++ and warfets being used in build video's thus far) 

 

for internal mosfets it'd be redundant, as setting things like fire rate, precocking etc are tied to the properties of the gearbox/motor (ie you won't need to change them if you're not changing parts)

 

for swappable mosfets i can see where you're coming from, the ability to quickly set between guns so you can have one mosfet that works for multiple guns, but then that means folk wouldn't need to buy multiple mosfets which ain't good for sales

[Guest SoupyXo]

3 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

you mean like having burst fire? because there's a few will do that.

i mean like having the switch do safe, true semi, and then also a selectable burst or full auto mode. what I've seen is that you either get semi, or full auto, or burst fire while retaining safety, and that's that. i'd like to see one with a safe, a semi with selectable bursts (single, 3 round/5 round), and a full auto all controlled by the same fire selector switch that's already on the gun, but having the programmability of the mosfet behind it. if that's already a thing, then i haven't seen a full demonstration/the person showing it hasn't fully demonstrated the features

 

3 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

but then that means folk wouldn't need to buy multiple mosfets which ain't good for sales

if i had a mosfet that had the ability to do that, id buy one for each and have different modes on each mosfet, tuned to each gun, or have a program card/box that could store different ''tunes'' 

 

3 hours ago, Badgerlicious said:

. Also is ~£100 for a uniquely form factored brushless motor with an esc that bad? From my brief stint in the RC world it seems... reasonable. 

when you're pitching it against something like an acuvance xarvis esc with a fledge 10.5t motor, tuned using a tao3, then no, its not really unreasonable but that's a lot of kit with a lot of brains.... now pitch it against lets say a toro t120a esc, with a speed passion v3 comp 10.5t, using a sky rc progbox which in all costs £130 and can do an immense amount of stuff for that price... a singular 20k rpm warhead motor, alone, as a BASE MODEL, being £90, and a mosfet thats ''decent'' like say a warfet, then having to pay for a tech top put it in because you may not be that technical, and your price is already at £157 with the mosfet and motor... yeah that's a touch unreasonable

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by SoupyXo

[Rogerborg]

5 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

i mean like having the switch do safe, true semi, and then also a selectable burst or full auto mode.

 

AB++, Warfet, or anything optical will give you safe / semi / burst-or-auto.

 

I'm not sure if the optical units can do safe / semi-or-burst / full auto, that's beyond my functionality and price-range of interest.  Hopefully someone's butler might clear that up for us.

[Guest SoupyXo]

12 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

that's beyond my functionality and price-range of interest.  Hopefully someone's butler might clear that up for us.

*waits for jeeves to pop in with the silver platter and napkin to tell us all we're poor and peasants and to get out of the lord's chatroom*   yeah nah i get it, like i said, maybe the person showing the mosfet's just did a shit job of doing a ''walkaround'' as it were.... i like to know all the details, so i can see what im truly getting for the amount of money im paying for a small piece of PCB with a few £4 pieces of silicon and some capacitors on it does...

 

paying £70 for something barely larger than a deans connector, that has an led and beeps... makes me cringe pressing ''Pay Now''

 

i like to be wined and dined before i pay a lot of money for a flash drive i cant store stuff on XD 

 

 

im also capped for daily posts again lol 

Edited May 3, 2022 by SoupyXo

[Rogerborg]

22 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

paying £70 for something barely larger than a deans connector, that has an led and beeps... makes me cringe pressing ''Pay Now''

 

Welcome to airsoft.

 

And I cannot über-emphasise the importance of playing several times before spanking mortgage payments on airsoft toys.  The actual experience of playing - once the adrenaline rush wears off - isn't for everyone, and you'll never see that money back.

[Badgerlicious]

35 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

a singular 20k rpm warhead motor

Well, you can get 45k for the same price if you really like stripping gears.  

 

A warhead + an AB++ will give you most of what you seem to want for £130. ETU's do jump up in price with their optical sensors and what not, and a few of those can be programmed on the fire selector so I guess it's a case of putting the right code into the lil chips do do something like that. Or another button elsewhere. 

 

You are right in that airsoft is incredibly slow to innovate. It's been a long while since I was into RC and I was surprised at the lack of brushless motors once I learned how they all go together. Hell, we still use backwards wired tamiyas as standard. Deans is only just starting to become normal in stock guns. 

 

And, considering how tangential this got. To the main post, I recently tried to fit some MR hop backings into a zci barrel in a prowin hop and it was really, really unhappy. The contact patch is too large for the zci barrel window so it gets hung up and shots were going way left. But, fitted a macaron and it's happy as can be. 

[Adolf Hamster]

53 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

maybe the person showing the mosfet's just did a shit job of doing a ''walkaround'' as it were....

 

given the standards of youtube review channels in airsoft i genuinely wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't fill 50% of the watchtime of a mosfet review talking about how ambidextrous it is.....

[Guest SoupyXo]

7 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Welcome to airsoft.

 

And I cannot über-emphasise the importance of playing several times before spanking mortgage payments on airsoft toys.  The actual experience of playing - once the adrenaline rush wears off - isn't for everyone, and you'll never see that money back.

yeah nah, im willing to at least play twice a month, i have a site literally a mile away and its cqb indoors, ukara registered site, next door to an army surplus store... convenient huh, and given that im an enjoyer of the pewpew, airsoft replicas are something i would buy to collect if nothing else

 

7 hours ago, Badgerlicious said:

Well, you can get 45k for the same price if you really like stripping gears.  

opting for the lower speed motor is a choice, and a suggestion, based on the experience of destroying spur and pinion gears like rocks at sheets of A4 paper... it gets worse with nitro power... imagine a nitro powered airsoft minigun... ok im gonna end up on a tangent again 😂

 

7 hours ago, Badgerlicious said:

I guess it's a case of putting the right code into the lil chips do do something like that. Or another button elsewhere. 

a dip switch board that fits in an accessible but not exposed area of the gun would work for this... flip a switch, mode 1, flip another, mode 2, and another for mode 3, or a sequence of 3 switches for another.... it could be done, possibly faster with a button on the receiver maybe... i dunno, its something to look into

 

7 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

given the standards of youtube review channels in airsoft i genuinely wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't fill 50% of the watchtime of a mosfet review talking about how ambidextrous it is.....

this is why i like luke at negative airsoft... his no nonsense absolutely bullshit free stance is hilarious, and addicting.... the man is a legend in his own right

[Skara]

To me it looks like we're trying to find a solution for a problem that does not exist.

 

Like having multiple, pre set firing modes, in my 12 years of playing I have never gotten into an engagement and thought "oh, how I wish I had a 6 rounds burst for that guy and then a 3 and a half rounds one for that cheeky cunt behind that tree" 

A Gate Titan will give you some degree of customisation when it comes to firing modes, for example you can program it to have semi-binary-burst/auto which is something I did for a while before reverting back to my good old safe-binary-auto.

Though I'm sure many people won't even bother and will just set active brake to adaptive (very bad for your motor) and precocking to adaptive as well.

 

Just like brushless motors, they're a niche because 90% of the people don't need them, and the 10% who do are prepared to dish out some serious cash.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Skara

[Guest SoupyXo]

4 minutes ago, Skara said:

Just like brushless motors, they're a niche because 90% of the people don't need them, and the 10% who do are prepared to dish out some serious cash.

we wouldn't have to dish out serious cash if they were cheaper, like they should be, since lets be realistic, they're not expensive for other applications, and its not like the form factor is a massive hinderance, slim motors aren't niche, they just aren't common in airsoft because they're ridiculously overpriced, because as far as I've seen, only warhead makes brushless motors, and the rest are brushed stone age technology.

 

from an RC perspective, where you can spend £30 on a 10t brushless sensored motor, that does just as much as the £120 brushless sensored 10t (minus of course the timing adjustments on the end of the can, which would be brand dependent) its a bit of a kick in the face... corner the market, hike the price, and fuck the people who cant pay £90 for a motor cos they can buy a shit brushed motor instead.

 

like, id be willing to pay the price for one, but i have more sense (most of the time) 

 

brushless has a lot of benefits over brushed, including noise reduction, tunability, the fact that the brushes don't wear because its magnetic wizardry, speed, sensitivity, size, weight, even the looks....  

 

 

[Rogerborg]

21 minutes ago, Skara said:

safe-binary-auto.

 

W - ⚓- 🔫

 

 

21 minutes ago, Skara said:

Though I'm sure many people won't even bother and will just set active brake to adaptive (very bad for your motor) and precocking to adaptive as well.

 

Eh.  The motor (or "mortors") I buy cost about the same as a game day.  Given how much of the junk we buy just sits around essentially unused, dying in the line of pew-ty is the heroic way to go.

[Guest SoupyXo]

1 minute ago, Rogerborg said:

Eh.  The motor (or "mortors") I buy cost about the same as a game day.  Given how much of the junk we buy just sits around essentially unused, dying in the line of pew-ty is the heroic way to go.

ive seen a brushed can go nuclear in many applications (6s lipo was the best one to watch go up in flames) 

[Rogerborg]

9 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

brushless has a lot of benefits over brushed

 

It is frustrating, and the first manufacturer to start shipping airsoft form factor brushless motors for a less eye watering price is going to clean up.

 

Systema are working on a gearbox with an integrated brushless motor, which looks great.  But Systemas have always been niche, and their reliability is somewhat of a running joke.

 

https://thereptilehouseblog.com/2021/01/24/systema-ptw-2021-update-infinity-variant/

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

5 hours ago, SoupyXo said:

opting for the lower speed motor is a choice, and a suggestion, based on the experience of destroying spur and pinion gears like rocks at sheets of A4 paper... it gets worse with nitro power... imagine a nitro powered airsoft minigun... ok im gonna end up on a tangent again 😂

 

 

if my memory of nitro powered rc remains valid then i wouldn't be worried about a nitro powered minigun cos i can guarantee it'll stall only when the guy really needs it to be running.....

 

plus even if it worked you'd hear him coming a mile off.....

[ak2m4]

3 hours ago, SoupyXo said:

only warhead makes brushless motors

 

From what I can tell 1 (maybe 2) Chinese factories making brushless at the moment (not including Warhead).  Sold under different brands like Option, AOLS and Military Action.  All have CNC aluminium casings.  My guess they keep brushless production small to allow enough time to make as much money from non-brushless.  It will probably take a new player in the market with little or no non-brushless investment to shake things up.

 

At least 1 Taiwanese company also, I think ADV.  Check out ShinWei YT channel if your Mandarin is good enough 🙂  Although when I looked at these they looked extremely similar to the ones now being produced by ChiHai in China.  

[Guest SoupyXo]

3 minutes ago, ak2m4 said:

 

From what I can tell 1 (maybe 2) Chinese factories making brushless at the moment (not including Warhead).  Sold under different brands like Option, AOLS and Military Action.  All have CNC aluminium casings.  My guess they keep brushless production small to allow enough time to make as much money from non-brushless.  It will probably take a new player in the market with little or no non-brushless investment to shake things up.

 

At least 1 Taiwanese company also, I think ADV.  Check out ShinWei YT channel if your Mandarin is good enough 🙂  Although when I looked at these they looked extremely similar to the ones now being produced by ChiHai in China.  

i guess they're just not as advertised or known then, all i could find was warhead when i searched for airsoft brushless

[Skara]

Well you see more warhead motors because a) they're the new kid on the block and b) the other options are shit (Option no.1 motors are well known for shitting themselves and the other was a G&P motor I think that's literally impossible to find). The AliExpress brushless airsoft motors are just as expensive as a Warhead so I don't see the point of buying those.

 

I have two warheads, one of which is currently in Denmark for repairs as I snapped one of the tabs (they're giga flimsy and WH is aware of that).

I wish they were cheaper, especially for the performance increase I'm getting out of them compared to my €30 SHS HT brushed motors (1/2 extra RPS in full auto).

But I definitely do not fall under that 90% of airsofters I mentioned earlier, I'm part of that 10% who actually dicks around with guns and the even smaller percentage of people who don't really mind spending a small fortune (solely because I can afford it atm) on gun shaped toys.

 

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

W - ⚓- 🔫

 

Dis is going in my signature, and yes i'm a wanker at heart

[Guest SoupyXo]

18 minutes ago, Skara said:

I wish they were cheaper, especially for the performance increase I'm getting out of them compared to my €30 SHS HT brushed motors (1/2 extra RPS in full auto).

But I definitely do not fall under that 90% of airsofters I mentioned earlier, I'm part of that 10% who actually dicks around with guns and the even smaller percentage of people who don't really mind spending a small fortune (solely because I can afford it atm) on gun shaped toys.

 

i don't mind spending a small fortune, but it has to be at least reasonably justifiable, say for example the kit i have so far, i can justify because i want to get to a site asap, and get my membership, which ill probably do on day 1 of going, for cheaper rates and access to the glory of non painted rif's... but £90 for a spinny boi that makes the pew go brrr at 20,000 rippums (or higher) with an 11.1v lipo, and does it a touch quieter than the brushed pile of shit that's in it now... cant justify that... not unless im doing a very nice build, which with no defence, i am not doing.... because vcra says im technically manufacturing imitation firearms by building one with no defence (fucking government) 

[Floperator]

11 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

 

i don't mind spending a small fortune, but it has to be at least reasonably justifiable, say for example the kit i have so far, i can justify because i want to get to a site asap, and get my membership, which ill probably do on day 1 of going, for cheaper rates and access to the glory of non painted rif's... but £90 for a spinny boi that makes the pew go brrr at 20,000 rippums (or higher) with an 11.1v lipo, and does it a touch quieter than the brushed pile of shit that's in it now... cant justify that... not unless im doing a very nice build, which with no defence, i am not doing.... because vcra says im technically manufacturing imitation firearms by building one with no defence (fucking government) 

UKARA is an ass-covering exercise for sellers with no real basis in law, it's not a defense for manufacture or possession. If it was then every airsofter would be breaking the law when their UKARA ran out.

If you're actively skirmishing, then you have a legitimate reason to possess or manufacture RIFs for that purpose.

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, ak2m4 said:

My guess they keep brushless production small to allow enough time to make as much money from non-brushless. 

 

Now, that makes sense: you always hunt the whales first.

 

I get that brushless performance is great, but 11.1V and <£30 of Big Dragon grinds my gears as fast as I'd care to risk them.  Bench tests might be satisfying, but the marginal extra field performance from brushless just isn't compelling for me at this point.

[Lozart]

On 03/05/2022 at 14:00, SoupyXo said:

it's incredibly sad that there isn't a standard platform for say an m4 base, which i guess is why the technology behind it hasn't really moved forward too much in a long time, and people are still using nimh's and brushed shite, as opposed to using extremely programmable electrics and brushless motors (sure, an AB++ is programmable, but it isn't as good as it could be, and the price for a warhead base motor is disgusting) 

 

Honestly, the main thing holding back innovation in airsoft is airsofters. This thread alone illustrates it beautifully - there are programmable mosfets on the market that have all the bells and whistles you could ever hope for but for every person that accepts that early adoption of new tech comes with a price tag, there are a hundred others saying that a T238 and a POS brushed motor does everything they want. Both approaches are valid and often determined by how much that person has (or is willing) to spend on toy guns but the one that is happy to spend always seems to get shouted down with cries of "why would you waste your money on that?" or "what's the point? A rental with a £100 gun can still get you" or "there's no way I would spend that much on XXXX". Great, bully for you. My money, my choice.

 

My main gun (of the 15 I own) is a SPecna with a Titan and Blu Link. The only reason it doesn't have a Warhead motor in it yet is because I want to see what the long term compatibility between their motors and that mosfet is (having already had to upgrade the motor twice - once because the Specna OEMN one was shite and then because the Titan ate the Rocket HT motor I put in to replace it; it's now running an Infinity 30K). Does it make me a better shot? No, of course not. Does it make me happy? Absolutely, and in this painfully short lifetime THAT is what we should be aiming for.

[Lozart]

On 03/05/2022 at 19:16, SoupyXo said:

when you're pitching it against something like an acuvance xarvis esc with a fledge 10.5t motor, tuned using a tao3, then no, its not really unreasonable but that's a lot of kit with a lot of brains.... now pitch it against lets say a toro t120a esc, with a speed passion v3 comp 10.5t, using a sky rc progbox which in all costs £130 and can do an immense amount of stuff for that price... a singular 20k rpm warhead motor, alone, as a BASE MODEL, being £90, and a mosfet thats ''decent'' like say a warfet, then having to pay for a tech top put it in because you may not be that technical, and your price is already at £157 with the mosfet and motor... yeah that's a touch unreasonable

 

 

I'd argue that you're not actually comparing like for like. The Warhead has the ESC built in to the housing, an RC motor is designed to run continuously not in VERY short burts so requires a different performance envelope and more importantly is still in its infancy in the airsoft market. RC and FPV motors can be cheaper because most of the tricky R&D has already been done and people already buy a lot of them. Add to that t he relative size of the RC and drone markets and it's pretty easy to see why airsoft brushless motors cost more. Warhead's parent company also make FPV motors and I can pretty much guarantee you that they're cheaper than a Warhead.

[Rogerborg]

On 04/05/2022 at 12:13, Floperator said:

UKARA is an ass-covering exercise for sellers with no real basis in law

 

It's the closest to one that sellers have got, although a Home Office circular phrased as little better than an opinion by some rando is very thin gruel.

 

 

On 04/05/2022 at 12:13, Floperator said:

 it's not a defense for [...] possession. If it was then every airsofter would be breaking the law when their UKARA ran out.

 

Er, purchase and private possession isn't an offence.  If you can get your hands on it, job done.

 

 

On 04/05/2022 at 12:13, Floperator said:

If you're actively skirmishing, then you have a legitimate reason to [...] manufacture RIFs for that purpose.

 

Or modify an IF into a RIF. Yup, and I'd argue that since the permitted activity is future use that having game days booked satisfies that intent more than having played in the past.