Specna Arms Edge Upgrades?

[Ragingrental]

Airsoft newbie here.  Recently I've been researching and getting myself deeper into the rabbit hole of gun upgrades/mods.  I'm mostly interested in getting more range and accuracy as well as better trigger response and, from what I have gathered lurking on this forum and researching on the internet, I decided to go for the following parts:

 

PDI 6.05mm barrel

 

13:1 SHS Gears

 

22 TPA Motor from ASG 

 

Flat hop the gun (only going to be temporary, might R-Hop later.

 

Shim the gearbox, possibly correct AOE?

 

I've also been getting overspin and double shooting. The gun is brand new and has all stock parts so I'm not sure why that's happening... (Only had around 2000 bbs put through it). 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

have you read rule 1 of airsoft upgrading?

 

because it's an important one.....

[Shamal]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

have you read rule 1 of airsoft upgrading?

 

because it's an important one.....

Rule 1. Dont touch it if ya want to keep it!

That right? Yeah I'm right yeah?

I am so smart s.m.r.t.

🤭😉

Regards 

[Alimcd]

Normally I’d be on side with the regulars here, banging the “leave it alone if it’s your only gun” drum BUT I had a Specna Edge and the gearbox failed catastrophically, stock, quickly.

 

The Gate mosfet supplied is likely the cause of overspin and double shooting. With your new motor, hopefully this will be a thing of the past, if not it’s worth looking at a Gate unit with Active breaking.

 

The bearings are terrible in the Orion boxes. A bearing in mine shattered, the force deforming the shell. Replace with different 8mm bearings or bushes.

 

AOE isn’t really something to worry about, certainly not obsess over.

 

The other area to look at on the Specna Orion is the cylinder port. On mine the cut was so rough that it sliced the piston head O ring in two! Get in there with your finger and check for burrs. If it’s bad, a fine file and some 1000-3000grit paper will be the best bet. If you can’t be arsed, new cylinder!

 

The PDI barrel will likely be a very nice piece of kit but the real secret to range in Airsoft is the mass of the projectile (shhhhh!)

 

Ali

[Adolf Hamster]

I only tell people to leave their first gat alone until they get a spare so i dont have to feel guilty when something inevitably goes wrong.

 

I sure didnt follow rule 1 when i started so i'm well aware what comes next (hint: it's taking the walk of shame with a broken gat on a weekly basis)

 

However, the op's research seems to be on the right lines. I cant say anything against any of those products on their own (because its all stuff i would be happy to run in my own guns)

 

However as i often mention there's more than specific individual parts to getting a nice build, for example a snappy build with a baller ass barrel  isnt going to do much if for example the air seal is terrible, or your using bad/lightweight ammo etc.

 

@Alimcd has done a great job pointing out some of the common issues with the orion that typify this.

 

With all that said, yes its a steep learning curve but only so much can be learned from the internet before you just gotta learn by doing it.

[Ragingrental]

Hi, thanks for your replies guys. I accept that something can go wrong sometimes but I'm willing to  take on the learning curve  and fully understand I could easily  mess up.

 

19 hours ago, Alimcd said:

Normally I’d be on side with the regulars here, banging the “leave it alone if it’s your only gun” drum BUT I had a Specna Edge and the gearbox failed catastrophically, stock, quickly.

 

The Gate mosfet supplied is likely the cause of overspin and double shooting. With your new motor, hopefully this will be a thing of the past, if not it’s worth looking at a Gate unit with Active breaking.

 

The bearings are terrible in the Orion boxes. A bearing in mine shattered, the force deforming the shell. Replace with different 8mm bearings or bushes.

 

AOE isn’t really something to worry about, certainly not obsess over.

 

The other area to look at on the Specna Orion is the cylinder port. On mine the cut was so rough that it sliced the piston head O ring in two! Get in there with your finger and check for burrs. If it’s bad, a fine file and some 1000-3000grit paper will be the best bet. If you can’t be arsed, new cylinder!

 

The PDI barrel will likely be a very nice piece of kit but the real secret to range in Airsoft is the mass of the projectile (shhhhh!)

 

Ali

 

Noted. I guess replacing  bearings should be no issue at all so I could definitely do that as well as have a look at the cylinder port. Also yes I do hope the new motor will stop the overspin however any idea where I could read about "why" a  higher TPA motor would stop this?  Also yes I was planning to use 0.3's or so.

 

19 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

I only tell people to leave their first gat alone until they get a spare so i dont have to feel guilty when something inevitably goes wrong.

 

I sure didnt follow rule 1 when i started so i'm well aware what comes next (hint: it's taking the walk of shame with a broken gat on a weekly basis)

 

However, the op's research seems to be on the right lines. I cant say anything against any of those products on their own (because its all stuff i would be happy to run in my own guns)

 

However as i often mention there's more than specific individual parts to getting a nice build, for example a snappy build with a baller ass barrel  isnt going to do much if for example the air seal is terrible, or your using bad/lightweight ammo etc.

 

@Alimcd has done a great job pointing out some of the common issues with the orion that typify this.

 

With all that said, yes its a steep learning curve but only so much can be learned from the internet before you just gotta learn by doing it.

 

Does upgrading/teching guns on your own really have that much risk? I've done as much research as I can and I know there's always things that trip you up that the internet can't tell you (as you said), but I really want to learn to upgrade my own guns as it seems much better than taking it to a tech just to replace a hop or whatnot. Seems really worth it to be able to do these things on your own (I also do quite enjoy learning about them).

 

Overall  the gun seemed fine when I skirmished it but I found myself getting constantly outranged by people with rental guns.. This is why I decided it might be worth it to crack it open and  do some fairly simple upgrades to try get the gun shooting better.  Also what about getting a chronograph? Do I need one if I'm going to be teching my own guns?

[Shamal]

48 minutes ago, Ragingrental said:

Hi, thanks for your replies guys. I accept that something can go wrong sometimes but I'm willing to  take on the learning curve  and fully understand I could easily  mess up.

 

 

Noted. I guess replacing  bearings should be no issue at all so I could definitely do that as well as have a look at the cylinder port. Also yes I do hope the new motor will stop the overspin however any idea where I could read about "why" a  higher TPA motor would stop this?  Also yes I was planning to use 0.3's or so.

 

 

Does upgrading/teching guns on your own really have that much risk? I've done as much research as I can and I know there's always things that trip you up that the internet can't tell you (as you said), but I really want to learn to upgrade my own guns as it seems much better than taking it to a tech just to replace a hop or whatnot. Seems really worth it to be able to do these things on your own (I also do quite enjoy learning about them).

 

Overall  the gun seemed fine when I skirmished it but I found myself getting constantly outranged by people with rental guns.. This is why I decided it might be worth it to crack it open and  do some fairly simple upgrades to try get the gun shooting better.  Also what about getting a chronograph? Do I need one if I'm going to be teching my own guns?

Yes get a chrono. Invaluable to check what improvements to power output have been made and to check rof.

Regards 

[Skara]

Wouldn't go with a flat hop (or R-Hop) either, since both will turn out much more expensive than a Maple Leaf rubber and tensioner for very similar results.

 

A chrono is mandatory when working on guns, you don't want to take the walk of shame because you turned up with a crisp sounding and beautifully working gun that fires way too hot

[Adolf Hamster]

51 minutes ago, Ragingrental said:

Does upgrading/teching guns on your own really have that much risk? I've done as much research as I can and I know there's always things that trip you up that the internet can't tell you (as you said), but I really want to learn to upgrade my own guns as it seems much better than taking it to a tech just to replace a hop or whatnot. Seems really worth it to be able to do these things on your own (I also do quite enjoy learning about them).

 

once you get some experience under your belt it's not a risk, quite the opposite it gives you the power as you say to skip paying techs to do the work for you and means you can do things like buy secondhand with a lot more confidence knowing you have the capacity to deal with any hidden demons that the current owner might not even know are there. which is why i strongly advocate people learn their own tech work.

 

what i'm referring to when i talk about risk is the learning curve, research only takes you so far and starting off without experience means you're gonna almost certainly make mistakes, and lots of them, hell i still make mistakes to this day. and jumping into trying your own tech work with no backup gun means any mistakes that show up on gameday (conveniently never at chrono and always when there's a target to be shooting at, it's just one of those universal laws) mean you're gonna have to pack up, go home and try to figure out what went wrong. which speaking from experience starts getting real tiresome the tenth time it's happened.

 

best way to mitigate that risk is to have a backup of some sort, doesn't have to be a gun you own, could be a mate who has a spare you can borrow, or taking extra cash to rent a site gun etc. hell just a few months ago (during the glorious two weeks shooting we actually had this year) i had my primary go down because of a motor brush issue (brand new motor from a reputable company) and ended up having to run around all day with a mosin nagant i borrowed off a mate that had no front post. which was much more fun than trudging off home to try and sort things out.

 

1 hour ago, Ragingrental said:

Overall  the gun seemed fine when I skirmished it but I found myself getting constantly outranged by people with rental guns.. This is why I decided it might be worth it to crack it open and  do some fairly simple upgrades to try get the gun shooting better. 

 

if practical range (ie shooting further than the other guy) is your goal then i'd have a look at these 2 threads:

 

first one is basically a massive nerdfest that boils down to heavy bb's are better if you can hop them, second is some more generic info on gearbox work, for range/accuracy it's particularly worth looking at the stuff about airseal because there's no such thing as excessively good air seal.

 

Just now, Shamal said:

Yes get a chrono. Invaluable to check what improvements to power output have been made and to check rof.

Regards 

 

^this, absolutely this, it's one of those tools that's so useful you forget other people might not have one.

[Speedbird_666]

47 minutes ago, Shamal said:

Yes get a chrono. Invaluable to check what improvements to power output have been made and to check rof.

Regards 

 

This times 1000.

 

Some airsofters are happy to drop hundreds of £'s on shitty accessories/scopes/rails systems etc to hang off their guns, but when it comes something that's actually really useful, they seem to think a £50-60 Chrono is too expensive.

 

BUT @ak2m4 has recently started selling these chronos for £25. I've heard they are quite well regarded within the Airgun community so are probably worth a punt at that price.

 

 

 

[Ragingrental]

31 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

once you get some experience under your belt it's not a risk, quite the opposite it gives you the power as you say to skip paying techs to do the work for you and means you can do things like buy secondhand with a lot more confidence knowing you have the capacity to deal with any hidden demons that the current owner might not even know are there. which is why i strongly advocate people learn their own tech work.

 

what i'm referring to when i talk about risk is the learning curve, research only takes you so far and starting off without experience means you're gonna almost certainly make mistakes, and lots of them, hell i still make mistakes to this day. and jumping into trying your own tech work with no backup gun means any mistakes that show up on gameday (conveniently never at chrono and always when there's a target to be shooting at, it's just one of those universal laws) mean you're gonna have to pack up, go home and try to figure out what went wrong. which speaking from experience starts getting real tiresome the tenth time it's happened.

 

best way to mitigate that risk is to have a backup of some sort, doesn't have to be a gun you own, could be a mate who has a spare you can borrow, or taking extra cash to rent a site gun etc. hell just a few months ago (during the glorious two weeks shooting we actually had this year) i had my primary go down because of a motor brush issue (brand new motor from a reputable company) and ended up having to run around all day with a mosin nagant i borrowed off a mate that had no front post. which was much more fun than trudging off home to try and sort things out.

 

 

if practical range (ie shooting further than the other guy) is your goal then i'd have a look at these 2 threads:

 

first one is basically a massive nerdfest that boils down to heavy bb's are better if you can hop them, second is some more generic info on gearbox work, for range/accuracy it's particularly worth looking at the stuff about airseal because there's no such thing as excessively good air seal.

 

 

^this, absolutely this, it's one of those tools that's so useful you forget other people might not have one.

Cheers, will have a look.

[Skara]

42 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

ended up having to run around all day with a mosin nagant i borrowed off a mate that had no front post. which was much more fun than trudging off home to try and sort things out

This is why I'm buying an AS-03 next year, universal backup that doesn't require anything but BBs

[Ragingrental]

Yeah I know I'm putting myself at a disadvantage in case my gun breaks. Can always bring money for a rental  though.

[Ragingrental]

I'm  getting towards the final stage of research now but I'm a bit stuck on what motor to buy still.... They don't seem to be  named clearly on any sort of retailers websites... 

[Alimcd]

The SHS high torque or Rocket motors are excellent value and perform as advertised.

 

13:1 + Rocket High torque and 11.1v should give you c.20rps with a snappy trigger response. 
 

Have a look on AK2M4 

 

If you want to spend more Dosh, the ASG motors are pretty snazzy. The 22000 has oodles of torque and in theoryland would give you c.25rps. More issues will creep in at ROF above this and chew up pistons without notice!

 

For your first build, twenty is plenty. It’ll last, have great trigger response and good rof

 

 

Rough expected rof worked out using Sittingduck’s rule. Motor [email protected]/gear ratiox1.55 for an extra cell then less a bit because no build is perfect...

[Ragingrental]

I shouldn't need to have a stronger spring with the high torque motor, right?

[Alimcd]

No, stronger spring not required. The higher torque motors will get going quicker than a high speed type, hence the trigger response being better. 
 

They’ll also run cooler and draw less amps, getting more out of your battery.

 

My first build, I went straight to the high speed motors. Could have cooked bacon on the pistol grip!

 

If you had meant a stronger spring to avoid premature engagement, I would humbly and hypocritically recommend not going high speed until you’ve got a reliable work horse to fall back on! The walk of shame is a cnut and there’s no guarantee of the site having a spare rental. I’ve had to sit out a fair few games from shredding pistons, cracking gearbox shells, bursting bearings and once from a near lipo fire!

 

 

[Ragingrental]

Nah, it's not to avoid premature engagement. Also sorry for saying this the 20th time today but I know I am taking a risk doing this. But I am willing to accept that things may or may not go wrong. All part of the learning.

 

Also, thanks for the advice everyone. Just ordered  a PDI barrel, a gearset, SHS motor, prommy purple bucking, a set of shims, an X3500 Chrono and some .3's. Going to get some bearings ASAP too. Will update the thread once I upgrade the gun.

[Adolf Hamster]

3 hours ago, Skara said:

This is why I'm buying an AS-03 next year, universal backup that doesn't require anything but BBs

 

i'll be honest, bolt guns aren't my thing, but the mosin was kinda fun, but one of those you gotta be in the right mood to activate hard mode kind of things.

 

2 hours ago, Ragingrental said:

I shouldn't need to have a stronger spring with the high torque motor, right?

 

the only reason to go for a stronger spring is to increase the energy the gun is putting out (big big caveat that we're assuming good air-seal and getting all the oomph the spring has out the barrel)

 

of course high speed you get premature engagement issues which a stronger spring will solve, however that can push you over the limit so you short-stroke which brings it back down (and also helps avoid pme as well), but in doing so you're limiting the cylinder volume you can use which for a given standard of accuracy limits the barrel length you can use (hence why many stupid high rof guns have short barrels). personally i'd focus on accuracy first, if you want a snappy trigger then a precocking mosfet like a warfet will do a hell of a lot without needing to change out half the bits in the gun.

 

as for speed chasing in an aeg, well my tuppence on the matter is it's an exponentially expensive road that inevitably ends in surrendering your soul (and credit card) to the hpa devil. As @Alimcd says twenty is plenty, if you're sending 20-25 rounds per second downrange and the target isn't calling it then your problem is either you aint hitting shit, or the guy your shooting won't call shit. neither of these are problems having a gun spitting out double the amount of plastic is gonna solve.

[Ragingrental]

Yeah I am not wanting some insane  ROF build. Just want a snappy and precise gun.

[Skara]

Then you may want to check this thread

in which I go through the process of building a nice snappy (sort of) budget AEG

 

[Ragingrental]

9 hours ago, Skara said:

Then you may want to check this thread

in which I go through the process of building a nice snappy (sort of) budget AEG

 

Cheers, will have a read through.

[Ragingrental]

Uhhh.... Did some more research. Bit confused about how batteries impact the ROF etc but I think I'm understanding it better (learning curve, duh). My  concern is the 11.1v 25c draw rating battery would maybe make the gun a bit too hot or make the  piston demolish itself? Is my concern valid and I should pick up some new batteries while I wait for my gunfire and x-fire order or will it be just OK?

 

[Skara]

Define "hot".

If hot as in temperature, yes it'll get warmer than with a 7.4/8.4.

If hot as in over the site/legal energy limit, bollocks, it's an old popular belief that doesn't make any sense

 

On a stock gearbox with stock motor a 11.1v battery will just up the RPS to just shy of 20, most likely in the 18/19 region, at those levels the piston won't commit sudoku (I know, shut up) unless it's pulling a M150 or the shimming is atrocious.

It'll slowly burn the trigger contacts, but since it's an Edge we are talking about, the X-ASR mosfet will prevent that.

 

Go get them batteries.

[Adolf Hamster]

2 hours ago, Ragingrental said:

Uhhh.... Did some more research. Bit confused about how batteries impact the ROF etc but I think I'm understanding it better (learning curve, duh). My  concern is the 11.1v 25c draw rating battery would maybe make the gun a bit too hot or make the  piston demolish itself? Is my concern valid and I should pick up some new batteries while I wait for my gunfire and x-fire order or will it be just OK?

 

 

At its simplest more volts=more speed

 

At least so long as the battery can supply the current.

 

Multiply the c rating of the battery, by the capacity of the battery in amp-hours (mah is milli amp hours so divide by 1000) to give you the rated current.

 

Eg for a 25c lipo:

 

An 800mah can put out 20a

A 1200mah can put out 30a

 

Change it to 30c and the current output goes to 24 and 36 amps respectively.

 

If the current draw of the motor is more than the battery then it'll limit the speed it can reach whilst simaltaneously doing bad things to the battery. Of course generally batteries can supply a much higher burst current safely but i wouldnt personally rely on that.

 

I remember once running an asg 40k motor on an 800mah 25c and fortunately as it was just a range shakedown i stopped before the battery was really damaged, but in-game could easily have cooked it. That same motor on a 1500mah 25c didnt cook the battery although it did cook my hands, the gears, the wiring and several pistons.....

 

As a general rule theres no downside to having a higher c rating or capacity as long as the battery is good quality and physically fits the gun.

 

As skara says often i find stock boxes on a decent 11.1 can put out respectable rof that generally isnt an issue mechanically unless the gun has a super weak spring (pretty common with shoddy fps downgrades) certainly it's what i'd be running. only reason my main ak runs 7.4 is because you try stuffing an 11.1 down the hole in a railed gas tube