Missing Innovation?

[PopRocket123]

It's no secret that airsoft technology has stagnated somewhat. Sure there have been a few new innovations like smarter electronics and more features in your mags like higher capacity mid caps, extended followers and last round cut off but the basic design is still the same or at least a variation of design that is by now like 30 years old.

 

So what is an innovation that you want to see from the airsoft industry? More gun options? New gearbox designs? Or maybe an entirely new operating system?

[Cromulon1994]

I hoped tippmanns m4 would usher in more hpa fed aeg magged blowback guns, like the escorts of old.

But it didn't

 

[Guest]

 Buddy of mine brought round his M4 DAS, and I have to say it is truly superb.

 

Ignoring the fact that’s it’s beautifully made, it’s such a good idea combining the best bits of GBB and AEG. Shame they only build M4’s and that they are incredibly expensive

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

46 minutes ago, PopRocket123 said:

So what is an innovation that you want to see from the airsoft industry?

Pyrotechnic funtionality - recoil actuation via explosives instead of gas/electricity.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Pyrotechnic funtionality - recoil actuation via explosives instead of gas/electricity.

Couldn’t legally get away with it, it would be regarded as a firearm, more’s the pity

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

2 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

Couldn’t legally get away with it, it would be regarded as a firearm, more’s the pity

I remember someone on another forum, about a decade ago reckoned it's legal so long as the BBs themselves are propelled by air/gas/etc still. He was looking into a dual-charge system where you'd have a .22 blank for the recoil element, then a standard HPA line for the bb itself - can't find the forum thread anymore though!

[Adolf Hamster]

16 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Pyrotechnic funtionality - recoil actuation via explosives instead of gas/electricity.

 

i did have a think about using a hi-low system combined with a recoilless style case.

 

think m203 meets carl gustav, but instead of reducing recoil the  lost gases are used to power effectively a more robust variant of a gbb mechanism.

 

of course its a legal and technical nightmare you could never do outside of america but a fun concept to think about.

 

17 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

 Buddy of mine brought round his M4 DAS, and I have to say it is truly superb.

 

Ignoring the fact that’s it’s beautifully made, it’s such a good idea combining the best bits of GBB and AEG. Shame they only build M4’s and that they are incredibly expensive

 

another great idea, although as you say the extra complexity really is what kills it.

 

 

funny i joined this forum with grand dreams of a linear motor/electromagnet replacing the motor/gear setup for an aeg, similar to the mythical BO design but using a spring for the power stroke (to eliminate field programmable fps changes and the inevitable issues therein)

what i learned is i don't have remotely near the electrical knowledge to make it happen, i'm still not sure it's even viable.

 

the problem is whilst yes there are plenty of folks willing to drop megabucks on their toy pew pews to get fancy rumble packs or send just more plastic balls further and faster, the vast majority seems to be the cheap and cheerful raiders/cyma's/jg's of this world.

 

i must admit there are a few replica's i'd like to see either being more common or simply being made at all, like the sks or the an94 (even guns like the fal are so much rarer than they deserve to be)

[PopRocket123]

1 hour ago, rocketdogbert said:

 Buddy of mine brought round his M4 DAS, and I have to say it is truly superb.

 

Ignoring the fact that’s it’s beautifully made, it’s such a good idea combining the best bits of GBB and AEG. Shame they only build M4’s and that they are incredibly expensive

It's one of those guns that if I had the disposable income I absolutely would pick one up as the system is really clever and I loved the realism without the drawbacks of a gas gun. But yeah you're paying £1500 for a toy gun that can in all honesty be outperformed buy a £150 gun. 

[Cyberlawyer]

29 minutes ago, PopRocket123 said:

 Buddy of mine brought round his M4 DAS, and I have to say it is truly superb.

I have played with a couple of DAS and I really like them. I do think at the moment they are way over priced for what they are (I was hoping prices would fall once the Far Eastern clones started, but it appears not to be the case). Also they need a little bit more development at the moment they have a metal nozzle and the manual expressly mentions not dry firing the gun or you can tear the hop rubber. A plastic/polymer nozzle is available to fix this but apparently (no personal experience so only passing on what I heard) It has a very short life expectancy.

 

I would also like to see the DAS include some sort of extractor mechanism so you could practice more real steal like unloading and stoppage drills (given the current premium price I don’t think this is too impossible or unreasonable an expectation).

 

Until either of these things happen GBBRs probably still represent the most cost effective and realistic airsoft experience.

[Druid799]

4 hours ago, rocketdogbert said:

 Buddy of mine brought round his M4 DAS, and I have to say it is truly superb.

 

Ignoring the fact that’s it’s beautifully made, it’s such a good idea combining the best bits of GBB and AEG. Shame they only build M4’s and that they are incredibly expensive

Me three on this ! Tried one at there booth at GZ last yr and fell in love with it within the first 5 pulls of the trigger AND then fell out of love once I saw the price and the limited range of models you can build with it . 

[BigStew]

3 hours ago, Cyberlawyer said:

I have played with a couple of DAS and I really like them. I do think at the moment they are way over priced for what they are (I was hoping prices would fall once the Far Eastern clones started,

i do wonder if this has actually hurts Airsoft Who going to shoulder the cost of developing something truly ground breaking when punters do not appreciate the cost and therefore don't see the worth and some other company is just going to rip you off a couple of months after you release your products. 

 

In the end  airsoft is just toy air guns that must fire a fundamentally un aerodynamic projectile at energy levels that can't be anywhere near lethal in any way whatsoever.  There have been many small improvements over the 20 years i have been playing but there just isn't the profit in massive tech advances that people want. 

 Would like all Guns to be GBB powered by internal silent electriatrical micro compressors. It could be done but good god it would be expensive.

[Adolf Hamster]

13 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Would like all Guns to be GBB powered by internal silent electriatrical micro compressors. It could be done but good god it would be expensive.

 

In fairness the aeg design is basically an air compressor, we just dont think of it as such because it does all its work in a single power stroke.

 

One thing popped into my head there that should definately be viable is brushless dc motors, they've been a thing in rc for years and it feels like the design might be pretty well suited to the stop/start use airsoft requires.

[Sitting Duck]

9 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

In fairness the aeg design is basically an air compressor, we just dont think of it as such because it does all its work in a single power stroke.

 

One thing popped into my head there that should definately be viable is brushless dc motors, they've been a thing in rc for years and it feels like the design might be pretty well suited to the stop/start use airsoft requires.

 

very expensive

the first one...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Novatech-X-PERT-MOTORE-GP-350-Brushless-Motor-LONG-M4-FET-AEG-SOFTAIR-AIRSOFT-/322579004376

or

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000937507182.html

 

 

& the more recent one...

https://ast-gun.airsofttaiwan.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2740

 

wonder if they are like stepper motors - those fuckers stop dead and never budge

(unlikely to need a mega AR latch maybe ???)

requiring a controller, to ergh control them

but with more & more bells n whistles inside the box with internal mosfets & crap

it would be doable maybe to incorporate it all perhaps to control the motor starting & stopping exactly

 

imagine a precock right right on the limit of the last tooth just about to slip every time

 

now these super torquey stepper motors might be hard to build into a reg AEG perhaps

but could be built into a bespoke support gun or sniper perhaps

 

personally I like the ye olde simple stuff - have enough grief with just the basic crap

let alone more complicated shit

[Cyberlawyer]

37 minutes ago, BigStew said:

i do wonder if this has actually hurts Airsoft Who going to shoulder the cost of developing something truly ground breaking when punters do not appreciate the cost and therefore don't see the worth and some other company is just going to rip you off a couple of months after you release your products. 

This has been the way every industry has worked for ever. Take personal computing, IBM developed the PC and then other companies developed compatible products and the price fell. The same happened in the automotive industry before that. It happens all the time in the drug industry that once a drugs patents expire generic version come to market and prices fall.

 

This process in its self isn’t a problem and has been going on since the industrial revolution. The biggest difference is that modern manufacturing methods, the relative technological simplicity of airsoft guns and the lack of respect for IP in certain countries mean that there are no barriers to entry and very little cost to simply cloning someone else’s product rather than Re-engineering a product with similar (or even improved) functionality.

 

I also guess the relative complexity of the DAS system and the fact it is far easier and more profitable to just clone another M4 alike with a v2 gearbox is what has so far saved the DAS from this fate.

[Iceni]

Self centring double helical gears. Would never need shimming and would run with much lower friction that standard or single cut helical gears. Perfectly possible with current powdered metal injection moulding.

Think this.

[Adolf Hamster]

58 minutes ago, Sitting Duck said:

 

very expensive

the first one...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Novatech-X-PERT-MOTORE-GP-350-Brushless-Motor-LONG-M4-FET-AEG-SOFTAIR-AIRSOFT-/322579004376

or

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000937507182.html

 

 

& the more recent one...

https://ast-gun.airsofttaiwan.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2740

 

wonder if they are like stepper motors - those fuckers stop dead and never budge

(unlikely to need a mega AR latch maybe ???)

requiring a controller, to ergh control them

but with more & more bells n whistles inside the box with internal mosfets & crap

it would be doable maybe to incorporate it all perhaps to control the motor starting & stopping exactly

 

imagine a precock right right on the limit of the last tooth just about to slip every time

 

now these super torquey stepper motors might be hard to build into a reg AEG perhaps

but could be built into a bespoke support gun or sniper perhaps

 

personally I like the ye olde simple stuff - have enough grief with just the basic crap

let alone more complicated shit

 

Afaik there is a version of the brushless system with a dedicated channel for rotation, certainly something viable to replace the optical versions in things like the titan.

 

Cost i cant see as being the big barrier given how much folk will drop on their pews.

 

Maybe theres a technical reason it hasnt caught on, but then we're dealing with a hobby where nimh is still current tech despite being old hat for over a decade in the rest of the world.

 

 

Also liking the look of those gears, its not something i've ever put any study into but i'm reaching the point where gear whine is my number 1 hate.

[BigStew]

1 hour ago, Cyberlawyer said:

This has been the way every industry has worked for ever. Take personal computing, IBM developed the PC and then other companies developed compatible products and the price fell. The same happened in the automotive industry before that. It happens all the time in the drug industry that once a drugs patents expire generic version come to market and prices fall.

 

This process in its self isn’t a problem and has been going on since the industrial revolution. The biggest difference is that modern manufacturing methods, the relative technological simplicity of airsoft guns and the lack of respect for IP in certain countries mean that there are no barriers to entry and very little cost to simply cloning someone else’s product rather than Re-engineering a product with similar (or even improved) functionality.

 

I also guess the relative complexity of the DAS system and the fact it is far easier and more profitable to just clone another M4 alike with a v2 gearbox is what has so far saved the DAS from this fate.

That was IMBs plan though to make PC the standard that's why the wiped the floor Mac who restricted access to their software. Patents last for years and drug companies spend a fortune defending said patents and finding ways to extend them. infact pretty much every industry works like that.

The Airsoft industry is very odd as it is comparatively small with limited profits to fight patent violation and fundemently the guns manufactured are generally a violation of someone's intellectual property. The major player Tokyo Marui (Airsoft isn't even their primary product)  is not interested in the international market partly as they would be paying through the nose for licensing or constantly fighting court case so don't go to the trouble of chasing every company that have ripped of their designs and it is pretty much every other airsoft anufacture airsoft.

[Cyberlawyer]

18 minutes ago, BigStew said:

That was IMBs plan though to make PC the standard

Actually that is not the case. IBM would have kept the PC a proprietary format very much as Mac is now, but the BIOS was reverse engineered in a clean room (i.e with no access to any IBM reference information to circumvent IP rules) to create  100% compatible machines.

[Sitting Duck]

2 hours ago, Iceni said:

Self centring double helical gears. Would never need shimming and would run with much lower friction that standard or single cut helical gears. Perfectly possible with current powdered metal injection moulding.

Think this.

 

&

 

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

Afaik there is a version of the brushless system with a dedicated channel for rotation, certainly something viable to replace the optical versions in things like the titan.

 

Cost i cant see as being the big barrier given how much folk will drop on their pews.

 

Maybe theres a technical reason it hasnt caught on, but then we're dealing with a hobby where nimh is still current tech despite being old hat for over a decade in the rest of the world.

 

 

Also liking the look of those gears, its not something i've ever put any study into but i'm reaching the point where gear whine is my number 1 hate.

 

the issue with the present helical gear sets:

 

100:200 or 100:300 = a helical bevel gear that afaik they don't sell on their own

meaning if it strips, you can't use any old spare bevel in your junk box

coz there is not regular cut usual 10 tooth bevel gear, but a bespoke helical bevel gear driving the spur etc...

 

Some of the ideas are taking the basic stuff to the next level

which tbh are we really ready for ???

 

helical gear set - why not helical pinion

and for that matter why not helical steel rack piston ???

 

brushless motor - you are still looking at a motor costing 3 times the price of a std neodym motor

(maybe 4 times the price)

and you would need some sort of controller or system board...

placed on/near the motor - it will be getting rather warm/hot

so somewhere inside box perhaps to control brushless/stepper motor

 

in RC's you need the controller for them motors...

but it "could" be done as we have said

 

However that is if people really wanted or felt the need to make that next jump in technology

 

I mean MAYBE some higher end manufacturer could look to implement some fo this

but would they really get a return on it knowing that if successful this innovative design

will just knocked out on the cheap & slapped into cheap mid range China guns within 6~12 months

 

Personally I think we have around another 2 years, or maybe 3 of squeezing out the max efficiency

in out of the box guns - there is no denying that guns today are offering you much more bang for ya buck

and are setting a revised standard in what we expect at say £100, £150, £200 etc...

 

Somewhere at say £125 you are expecting - well maybe seeing a gun with mosfet

£150 QC spring gearbox, £175 higher barrel/hop unit & £200 pretty much all if that with a decent or better motor

meaning less must have tweaks required

 

Bit like TV's - they haven't got insanely cheap that they fall out of cereal packets

but instead you are getting a STFU 50" Smart arse 4k TV for the price you paid for your old crappy 32" box tube telly

(figure of speech, don't quote me on black friday AO deals, nor will a 50" fit in a box of Coco Pops)

 

Personally I'd like to see some parts made with a bit more allowance for tuning/tweaking

Cylinder heads set back just say 1mm further casting, with sorbo/neoprene or AoE increased a smidge already

V2 gearboxes with trigger "tang" stops/limiters as std - rather just a few reinforced boxes having them

(so you can set the trigger pull limit more easily)

 

Maybe a V2 with a motor cage - but never caught on...

 

 

weird eh ???

[Adolf Hamster]

You do make a good point that there's a lot of work yet to be done in getting the existing boxes running nicely.

 

V2 motor cage would be nice, and why havent we made qd springs mandatory already?

[Sitting Duck]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

You do make a good point that there's a lot of work yet to be done in getting the existing boxes running nicely.

 

V2 motor cage would be nice, and why havent we made qd springs mandatory already?

 

That v2 was the weird Elephant HK33 thingy but never caught on

13 years ago, took me a while to find it, though posted it before on here

6mm bushings shows it's old...

 

http://www.france-airsoft.fr/forum/index.php?showtopic=74525

 

Remember when Specna Arms made their first QC M4's, like Krytac

you still had to remove the friggin' box from receiver to change it

(motor out, grip out, box out of receiver - might as well just open the damn thing up)

until SA sorted out their receivers to allow spring change in situ

 

But we are getting there, seems as each year goes by the "out of box" bar gets raised

half decent seals, full metal or part metal rack pistons, even slightly better wiring & possible mosfet

even the Cyma budget lines are switching to better blue tappets than clear hard tappets in v2's

 

maybe not quite more bang for our buck, but a better quality bang perhaps like the TV's as std

 

with the 200:100 I THINK the ratio is about the same as 18:1 or 18.65:1

with the 300:100 I THINK the ratio is about 22:1

 

BUT DON'T QUOTE ME - I got both SOMEWHERE and sure i tested one as a 7.5 turns of bevel to 1 sector rotation

which multiplied by 3 = just over 22 or 22.5:1

 

I've seen people say these sets are more like 32:1 but that is bollox

coz the 32:1 set has the rear sector teeth the exact same size/height as sector's piston teeth @ 3mm pitch

and you must use the half width piston for 32:1's and get the shimming fucking exact

(or teeth can catch/get in the way of half width teeth on piston rack)

 

So no the helicals are not 32:1's but std or just a smidge more torque @ 22:1 aprox imho

so unless they release a snappier 13:1 or 16:1 set

I can only see them going in maybe a DMR you want to quieten down a fraction

 

looking at TWG...

200:100

https://www.taiwangun.com/gears/steel-gears-set-100-200-helical-super-torque-kublai?from=listing&campaign-id=19

has a 10 tooth bevel

where as the 300:100

https://www.taiwangun.com/gears/steel-gears-set-100-300-helical-high-torque-kublai?from=listing&campaign-id=19

has a 9 tooth bevel which will effect the ratio

 

 

probably 18.65 x 1.1 = 20.5:1 maybe ???

(assuming the 200:100 is like std ratio)

But the 200 & 300 sets look the same at first glance on the spur/sector - just a 10 or 9 tooth bevel

 

 

anyway - I would want a snappier helical set than what is on offer at the moment

 

 

[John_W]

Airsoft has moved on a bit in the 18 years I have been playing. Hop technology has improved over the standard single nub. Mosfets have become fairly standard. The biggest change has been batteries. Compare a LiPo with a NiCad for size. 

I think what we are seeing is slow and steady rather than big jumps.

For me, modularity and tolerances would be a big thing. A lot of us see swimming as a bit of a dark art. Being able to upgrade a gearbox easily would be a benefit. I did use a Modify modular gearset a few years back, and being able to drop the gears in pre shimmed in a cage was very easy.

[Iceni]

There's a problem with those single helicial sets @Sitting Duck, They cause one side of the gearbox case to act as a thrust bearing as single cut gears will have a natural draw direction due to axial loading. Effectively they act as a screw as well as a gear. Double helical doesn't do this, in fact it self centres.

It's why people who try those single cut gears run into all sorts of shimming issues. The motor is trying to constantly adjust it's position, and the gears are pushing the gearbox cases.

To run DHG's you would need to set a motor height and then set the bevel to that with an adjustment screw on the bevel shaft, The bevel could be flatter. D type pinions reduce the need for anything special from motor manufacturers. All 3 gears would need to be dropped in together, but outside of that it should be a perfectly possible gear set to run.

Advantages - Smoother power transmission, Quieter, Less prone to tooth breakage.
Disadvantages - Harder to setup, Requires better gearbox castings and tighter tolerances on the gear placement and holding.

 

[rj1986]

I always hoped someone would revive Lonex’s electro magnetic gearbox concept. 

[PopRocket123]

1 hour ago, John_W said:

Airsoft has moved on a bit in the 18 years I have been playing. Hop technology has improved over the standard single nub. Mosfets have become fairly standard. The biggest change has been batteries. Compare a LiPo with a NiCad for size. 

I think what we are seeing is slow and steady rather than big jumps.

For me, modularity and tolerances would be a big thing. A lot of us see swimming as a bit of a dark art. Being able to upgrade a gearbox easily would be a benefit. I did use a Modify modular gearset a few years back, and being able to drop the gears in pre shimmed in a cage was very easy.

So those preshimmed gearsets work? I've seen them but haven't tried them out. 

 

The double helical gears sound great