Machine guns

[Adolf Hamster]

well said, it's an unfortunate fact of life that people are going to take these things and do stupid things with them, the best we can do is try and keep what's within our community to standard and hope the idiots don't draw enough attention to make a change.

 

i'm sure the drone aficionado's have the same gripes about the knobs who think flying around airports is a good idea.

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, Lollingsgrad said:

 

So this is interesting and upsetting. I'm sure you're right because you're normally hot on this subject but I'm curious to hear where you got this from. I thought the current understanding was that if this limit is exceeded it's unclear what this means but we assumed it fell into section 5?

 

As tackle says, there's no other category into which it can fall.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/5

 

5 Weapons subject to general prohibition.

(1) A person commits an offence if, without authority, he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires

(a) any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger;

 

So, any automatic firearm is prohibited. But surely airsoft toys aren't firearms?

 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57

 

57 Interpretation.

(1) In this Act, the expression “firearm” means—

(a) a lethal barrelled weapon (see subsection (1B));

(1B) In subsection (1)(a), “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile, with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged.

 

Oops.  So why aren't all automatic airsoft guns prohibited?

 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57A

 

57A Exception for airsoft guns

(1) An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act.

 

(2)(b) / (4)(a) An “airsoft gun” is a barrelled weapon of any description which [...] is not capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds [...] in the case of a weapon which is capable of discharging two or more missiles successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;

 

 

I don't like it, I didn't believe it until I'd checked myself (please do, see if we can spot another loophole), but I cannot see any other interpretation.

 

The language of Section 57A even matches section 5.  We had a specific exception made for us.  If our toys breach it, they're not toys any more, they're proper gnus.  I mean, guns.

 

It's a pickle, because the only way to tell what an airsoft toy/gun can can really produce is to drop some steel / lead BBs in there and potentially wreck the hop rubber and barrel.

 

And HPA, yes, that's the web-toed cousin we keep locked in the attic and don't talk about.

[PopRocket123]

It's frustrating being this limited by the law. In the States where pretty much the only laws around them are the orange to you get much more diversity in FPS and roles of different guns. For a good example check out the FPS rules of Ballahack Airsoft field. There you actually get different rules for sub guns and rifles and even distinguishes between SAWs and LMGs

[hunter511]

Re-reading through this....

1) I'd hate to be the test case......

2) surely sites aren't still allowing full-auto above the 3725 limit?

3) given any site allowing above said 375 limit who claims on their insurance are a) gonna find said insurance invalid and b) going to be ground zero for a messy criminal case surely no site is allowing anything even vaguely full auto capable above 375fps?

@PopRocket123 trust me the current limitations are nothing compared to what the government originally wanted......

 

 

[PopRocket123]

36 minutes ago, hunter511 said:

@PopRocket123 trust me the current limitations are nothing compared to what the government originally wanted......

 

 

Oh I'm sure. We're lucky to not have a blanket 1J limit

[hunter511]

2 minutes ago, PopRocket123 said:

Oh I'm sure. We're lucky to not have a blanket 1J limit

erm more of a case of lucky to still have a hobby......

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

21 minutes ago, PopRocket123 said:

Oh I'm sure. We're lucky to not have a blanket 1J limit

 

Speak for yourself, thats the deal ni got and we're just thankful we didnt get what the germans have to deal with.

[Rogerborg]

11 hours ago, PopRocket123 said:

Oh I'm sure. We're lucky to not have a blanket 1J limit

 

One might venture to suggest that if your fully automatic toy is pushing plastic at above 1J then it's potentially a Section 5 gun.

[Stratton Oakmont]

15 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

One might venture to suggest that if your fully automatic toy is pushing plastic at above 1J then it's potentially a Section 5 gun.

I wouldn't even venture to think to write such a comment. Supplying your own rope and all that.

[Stratton Oakmont]

I'm all for the wouldn't it be nice type discussions but fps limits at all the sites I've played on err on the side of caution for our own protection physical and legal

As others have put it we have it as good as we are going to get it, and the idea of people running private no fps limit games and such like do not help the hobby.

My own opinion is that if you even think about tinkering with a gun you should own a chrono, for your own protection and err on the side of caution., running to the limits puts you and the hobby at risk before you even go into the moral aspect of potentially hurting people.

 

As this is an open forum I believe that providing others with potential ammunition (pun intended) via some comments however well intentioned, could be used to shut the hobby down. 

 

There are are enough tools out there running around ( as previously reported) on housing estates with their rifs trying to to do that for us, no one outside the hobby is interested in a news story about responsible players

 

Re rogerborgs comment - I don't disagree with it as I hope I have shown with the comment above, just feelthe wording if read by someone with an axe to grind could be misinterpreted as a lot of people run their rifs over a joule legally without breaking 340fps let alone the 350 hard limit imposed by many sites.

 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Simple fact is all guns should be within legal limits as they need to be for any site to allow players to use them.

 

Lots of scaremongering comments on this thread though. I don't think someone getting caught with a hot gun will ever have an impact on the sport as I doubt the police really give a toss what airsofters do, so the only one to get caught will be a scrote misusing one. Then the police will just use the fact it is illegal to help sentence the moron. The whole Lord Shrewsbury thing a few years back settled down most of the ill informed stuff and actually helped in the fact everything became clearer.

 

What will screw things up is some idiot getting shot while waving one around in the street. The biggest danger is not whether they are dangerous to use it is the fact they look so real and can be used to intimidate people. 

 

I doubt people posting stuff on forums will have any effect as the powers that be don't really look. The Lord Shrewsbury thing showed that because when airsoft was discussed the people involved were clueless as they just jumped to conclusions and didn't really look at what it was.

 

Simple answer is if the gun is full auto no matter what it pretends to be (they are all the same just dressed in different clothes) it falls under the same laws as any other full auto airsoft gun.

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, osteoshot said:

I wouldn't even venture to think to write such a comment. Supplying your own rope and all that.

Only if he is operating a fully automatic Airsoft gun in excess of the legal power limit 

 

 

This is a forum, a place of discussion and advice

@Rogerborg has given some advice on the legal risks of an overpowered Airsoft gun 

[Stratton Oakmont]

13 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Only if he is operating a fully automatic Airsoft gun in excess of the legal power limit 

 

 

This is a forum, a place of discussion and advice

@Rogerborg has given some advice on the legal risks of an overpowered Airsoft gun 

I don't disagree with either of you, 1j is not the legal limit though

if he was referring to N.I specifically then I apologise for misinterpreting the post.

[Tommikka]

We go out and play games that involve shooting our mates

 

We use guns that are restricted within the legal constraints to permit them to be used recreationally to shoot people, along with the appropriate safety measures.

The guns are therefore not relatively restricted by the physics of their real life counterparts, there are some restrictions of the physics of a particularly short or a particularly long barrel, (balls exiting a pistols barrel may not have achieved its optimum, and a long rifle may exceed the length that benefits the ball) but in general a BB of any given mass exits the barrel as close to the permitted velocity as the user can get.

Add consistency and efficiency to the ranges that we play and pretty much any gun type can perform as well as any other gun type, it’s a matter of how ‘well’ it is setup and the circumstances. 

 

The alternative is to bring in rules on use, which as an organizer is a major pain in the arse.  Outside of ‘proper’ milsim I would say that is impractical, and at relatively low numbers 

 

A local crowd of regulars could do this to a degree - if it fits how they all like to play.  It’s possible, but comes with the disadvantage of potential arguments should an outsider dare to play and not know all the unwritten local rules 

 

The key part of the game is to have fun, provided you stay legal and obey rules, then you can use what you want and how you want

 

16 minutes ago, osteoshot said:

I don't disagree with either of you, 1j is not the legal limit though

if he was referring to N.I specifically then I apologise for misinterpreting the post.

The Firearms act revisions aren’t NI specific (there are of course still specific provisions for NI)

Previously Airsoft guns would align as an ‘air weapon’ under legislation, the latest Airsoft exemption takes them out provided they meet the Airsoft definition (including energy).  Without fitting that definition then they would sit back into firearms legislation and either be an unlicensed air weapon or a section five firearm.

 

In a similar manner paintball does not have that line, for the majority of legislation paintball guns are air weapons .... and probably air pistols, which would cause legal issues on energy /

velocity.  But with the backup of case law and the acceptance of paintballs being frangible paintball is safe.  It’s not exempt from the firearms legislation (load the wrong projectile and you head back towards air weapon and potentially  section 5 depending on circumstances) and also the VCRA.

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Lots of scaremongering comments on this thread though.

 

Eh, who doesn't like a good flap and gnash.  But if I was that bothered, I wouldn't be trying to get my toys up to 349.99 (that's recurring, of course) fps on 0.2g.

 

 

2 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

I don't think someone getting caught with a hot gun will ever have an impact on the sport as I doubt the police really give a toss what airsofters do, so the only one to get caught will be a scrote misusing one.

 

Absolutely agree, it's a minimal risk.  And if you're that risk averse, why do a hobby where you get hard plastic shot at your face at up to 2.5J (plus the creep).

 

[EvilMonkee]

On 24/08/2019 at 09:59, Prisce said:

RIFT Airsoft offer a different approach to this. Designated Support guns(that actually look like support guns) are allowed 370fps, but must be used as intended. 

 

Mounted/Bipod out, 3 second trigger pulls, and acting sensibly with it. No one there has abused said rules and I think it works really well.

 

This is what Gunman Airsoft events do too.  Plus semi only for rifles and limited ammo, really makes having a support weapon in the squad worth it.