POSSIBLE RIF BAN

[K@rl]

seeing how u r talking directly about an area of business I have a great deal of knowledge and am based in Liverpool I feel well qualified to tell that the business that are failing are (as a whole) stuck in that past. We are stuck to the ideals and lack the ability to move with the times. Niche markets they may be however niche market often represent the highest yields. Our biggest problem by far in this country is the "why should i do it " attitude. In Bread scum bag families and the desire to get back as much as possible of as little effort in.

Y do we hoist people like joey Essex on a pillar when there are men and woman up and down the country who give so much.

If we all did a bit more and moaned a bit less about what's goin wrong we would finally be Great Britain again. It's what would have happened 60 years ago. No tax credits then, u wanted it u earned it!

[Esoterick]

Anyway back onto topic.

I am sure at some point there will be more rules on owning rifs. A government database of registered players or even a licence.

Or to put it another way a stealth tax.

 

In my mind the best solution would be a centralised database that has a register of us as players, plus the RIFs we own. However this would all come at a cost so the government would be unlikely to support it. Especially given the typical response to mentioning Airsoft to those unfamiliar with it seems to be people asking if the metal BBs are dangerous....

 

I can see why Airsofters react when any sort of legislation is brought up that might effect the hobby, because as I understand it when the VCRA was introduced the legislators weren't even aware it was a thing. Although to be fair they would have to spend up to half an hour gathering information on laws they are passing and that's a lot of effort

[K@rl]

Wouldnt cost if we all paid for it. Make it the law for us to all sign up to own rifs and say 5000 players paying ££50 a year plus £1000 from each site per year. Not sure how meny sites there are in the uk but turnover generated from players would be £250000. Then instead of all bitching about it we would have a real voice. Y do u think the rspb gets its own way all the time. There's somewhere to start.

[ImTriggerHappy]

Yep niche markets do represent big profits but for a small amount of people.

I agree with a lot of what your saying we do have a problem with people not wanting to get off their arses. But we have created a system that means a hard working man is quite often no better off than a dole scrounger.

Cost of living has gone up far faster than wages. I have always worked (in engineering) and always will but I can also see why some people struggle for incentive.

Too much wealth in too few pockets and very few of those pockets are on the hard working everyday man.

I am a firm believer that the guy picking up the litter is worth far more than the accountant signing his checks.

[K@rl]

Could not agree with u more. It is a problem we have brought on our selves. It may take things to get worse before they get betta. It's far to easy in this country. No job? Make them clean the steers for there money. Get arrest, no dole for u. Still breaking the law, two choice prison or the army. We need to take a harder line with these people. I total understand y u feel that way, it's seems that there is so much focus on keeping the lowest happy, y because the vote in great numbers. Middle Briton is always goin goin to bear the brunt because it represents the biggest pot of tax money to draw from.

[ImTriggerHappy]

Wouldnt cost if we all paid for it. Make it the law for us to all sign up to own rifs and say 5000 players paying ££50 a year plus £1000 from each site per year. Not sure how meny sites there are in the uk but turnover generated from players would be £250000. Then instead of all bitching about it we would have a real voice. Y do u think the rspb gets its own way all the time. There's somewhere to start.

Couple of problems with that. Most sites dont make huge profits. Quite a few people running them do it as a hobby and dont make much if anything out of it and still have to hold down a 9 to 5.

A lot of players are students who struggle to afford to play regularly let alone pay a registration fee.

It would definitely help to have a more organised voice but once you start saying about people paying for it someone else whether it is the government or a private company is going to start saying how can they make money off it. Then it will get more and more expensive.

Needs something but dont think the solution is going to be a simple one.

[Esoterick]

Wouldnt cost if we all paid for it. Make it the law for us to all sign up to own rifs and say 5000 players paying ££50 a year plus £1000 from each site per year. Not sure how meny sites there are in the uk but turnover generated from players would be £250000. Then instead of all bitching about it we would have a real voice. Y do u think the rspb gets its own way all the time. There's somewhere to start.

 

The problem would lie in who manages it. The current system lets a select few retailers hold the power. If an independent party rocked up with the correct checks and balances in place to at least make them in line with how UKARA interprets the VCRA then I would be all for it. It is a lot of work though, both in setting up the system correctly and getting retailers onboard. Ideally said party would also have a decent spokesman to handle the vocal minority of mongs that might question them.

[Esoterick]

Couple of problems with that. Most sites dont make huge profits. Quite a few people running them do it as a hobby and dont make much if anything out of it and still have to hold down a 9 to 5.

A lot of players are students who struggle to afford to play regularly let alone pay a registration fee.

It would definitely help to have a more organised voice but once you start saying about people paying for it someone else whether it is the government or a private company is going to start saying how can they make money off it. Then it will get more and more expensive.

Needs something but dont think the solution is going to be a simple one.

 

 

That's the biggest problem, it's not just a case of finding someone to smash out a half decent database and another who has a card printer. It very much feels like a lot of Airsofters don't want to upset the status quo, and I can absolutely see why.

 

Edit: My multiquote skills leave much to be desired.

[ImTriggerHappy]

 

Ideally said party would also have a decent spokesman to handle the vocal minority of mongs that might question them.

Nobody off here then for spokesperson but plenty of takers for the mongs. 😂

[K@rl]

Easily set up as not for profit. Would also likely get government grants.

Reduced rate for students? 50%.

Or a pay and play system. £1/2 per player per game.

 

Also set up an official escro body, let's call it pew pal, all rifs including air rifles would have to b sold using it. This way details could be tracked and £3 from each party would be taken.

 

I take the point that site struggle so let's make retailers pay a fee to be able to sell all rifs in the uk. £1000 per retailer and all would have to meet up to our codes of practice regarding honesty and relalistic performance.

 

Under 18s would join for free and still have to two tone there rifle but would still require registration.

 

And by gun sold to the public would have to be no greater than 50fps.

 

Happy to hear any objections, love a problem to solve.

[Colonel Kurtz]

I also read through that whole damn document just to be sure, and also found nothing affecting RIF whatsoever, the closest being what they call 'alarm weapons' that can be modified to be an actual firearm.

 

So another case of righteous hysteria... Just like all the muppets on facebook going on about the government taking their RIF from their dead-fingers after the police announced a voluntary amnesty for people to hand in guns and RIF...

 

If anything this means that all the fools leaving messages to this proposal about banning RIF being a bad idea, are just reminding them about RIF, and the only effect this could have is them realizing 'oh yeah we forgot RIF' and adding something against them...

[Sacarathe]

Under 18s would join for free and still have to two tone the rifle but would still require registration.

 

Not an objection, but you will never overturn this restriction. If anything the irresponsible should be charged more - same for anyone between 18 and 21.

[K@rl]

What restriction wouldn't b overturned?

 

I havnt read the whole thing but this is still a good idea. Would help to increase awearness of Airsoft and unite a very fragmented hobby.

[ImTriggerHappy]

 

Not an objection, but you will never overturn this restriction. If anything the irresponsible should be charged more - same for anyone between 18 and 21.

Have you ever actually been to skirmish?

The most irresponsible players are usually late 20s to early 30s going through there I wish I was rambo phase. They are closely followed by the mid life life crisis group who are having one last stab at trying to be young.

The youngsters are usually the best behaved.

Anyway as Kurtz said above the whole topics a bust as not once is airsoft or airsoft weapons mentioned in the document.

[Yams]

The devil as always is in the details.

 

In Category C, the following points are added:

"5.

Alarm and signal weapons, salute and acoustic weapons as well as

replicas

 

That tiny parts at the very end is what would essentially screw airsoft as we know it. Under EU law a Cat C firearm is

 

Category C - Firearms subject to declaration

1. Repeating long firearms other than those listed in category B, point 6.

2. Long firearms with single-shot rifled barrels.

3. Semi-automatic long firearms other than those in category B, points 4 to 7.

4. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is not less than 28 cm.

 

You are then almost certainly into serial numbers, shotgun certificate style registration and all the other limitations that buying/selling/owning real firearms places on people

[K@rl]

Agreed if they were to tighten guns laws then it would most certainly blanket rifs aswell.

And as individuals there would be nothin we could do or no voice to show how responsible 99.9% of us our with our guns.

Who currently "runs" the ukara data base?

Y could this not be extended?

By self regulating we would have control over it otherwise we are goin to be force feed rules. And these kind of issues make great head lines for politicians.

 

10000 imitation firearms removed buy the current government waahhhoooo (probably via painting but u know how they like to lie)

 

Would also like to say that if it's ever proven that a rif has been used in a robbery then we are all screwed.

[Sacarathe]

Have you ever actually been to skirmish?

The most irresponsible players are usually late 20s to early 30s going through there I wish I was rambo phase. They are closely followed by the mid life life crisis group who are having one last stab at trying to be young.

The youngsters are usually the best behaved.

Anyway as Kurtz said above the whole topics a bust as not once is airsoft or airsoft weapons mentioned in the document.

 

Haha, I originally wrote 18-30, but editted as I thought I would be criticised for being too inclusive. I used irresponsible incorrectly, I should have said adolescent.

 

 

Would also like to say that if it's ever proven that a rif has been used in a robbery then we are all screwed.

Quite a few actually. But for the purposes of the crime its rarely a detail distinguished from use of a real firearm. You can commit armed robbery just by saying you have a gun.

[Colonel Kurtz]

The devil as always is in the details.

 

In Category C, the following points are added:

"5.

Alarm and signal weapons, salute and acoustic weapons as well as

replicas

 

That tiny parts at the very end is what would essentially screw airsoft as we know it. Under EU law a Cat C firearm is

 

Category C - Firearms subject to declaration

1. Repeating long firearms other than those listed in category B, point 6.

2. Long firearms with single-shot rifled barrels.

3. Semi-automatic long firearms other than those in category B, points 4 to 7.

4. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is not less than 28 cm.

 

You are then almost certainly into serial numbers, shotgun certificate style registration and all the other limitations that buying/selling/owning real firearms places on people

 

Fortunately not;

 

This does indeed add 'replicas' to the list of weapons that can be defined as Cat C, however; there is still the clause at the end of the definition section in the original Annex I to Directive 91/477/EC part II stating;

 

For the purposes of this Annex objects which correspond to the definition of a 'firearm' shall not be included in that definition if they :

(a ) have been rendered permanently unfit for use by the application of technical procedures which are guaranteed by an official body or recognized by such a body ;

(b ) are designed for alarm, signalling, life-saving, animal slaughter or harpoon fishing or for industrial or technical purposes provided that they can be used for the stated purpose only ;

(c ) are regarded as antique weapons or reproductions of such where these have not been included in the previous categories and are subject to national laws.

 

So essentially this means that if you have a gun that can be defined under this section, as long as you can verify or have it verified that it cannot be modified/adapted into an actual bullet firing firearm, it's all good. The only point of this intended change is to make sure you can't get something that is capable of being adapted into an actual firearm outside of the procedures in place for attaining such a firearm.

 

So for airsoft guns, the government would query the manufacturers, or perform their own independent verification that airsoft guns can't be modified into an actual firearm, and then they would be considered exempt. America has already considered this, and airsoft guns are deemed not modifiable into an actual firearm.

[Yams]

I hope it is that clear cut.

 

I'm guessing your focus is on part a, if so then that's a very murky patch that you're getting into. Of course this is all theoretical and a proper investigation may change everything, but for the UK the best we have is the ACPO recommendations on lethality and where an airsoft gun would become a firearm. Was it 1.5J for auto and 2.5 for single shot? Not that it really matters for the purpose of this argument. We have the situation that above a threshold they are firearms, albiet unlicenced ones. That makes me ask the question how would you permanently alter an airsoft gun above those limits to be less?

 

Being based on UK law is the stumbling block here and I'd hope there might be some overriding EU consensus on airsoft guns being non lethal.

 

If the focus in on either parts b or c then the case is tissue thin at best.

[Colonel Kurtz]

It should be;

 

The proposal is divided into 2 halves; the first half explaining the purpose/aims and justification for the amendments, the second half being the amendments themselves. I get my interpretation more from this first section rather than my own mind or the actual wording of the directive itself;

 

In the first half it states one of the aims as being;

 

"Establishing common technical guidelines on the convertibility of alarm/signal weapons and replicas, by detailing the criteria which qualify alarm weapons and replicas as convertible and, thus, bringing them within the scope of the Firearms Directive"

 

So effectively they'll have to come up with a set of standards, and as long as airsoft guns aren't considered convertible, then we'll all be untouched.

 

In my mind an absolute worse case scenario is an element or two of some airsoft guns being considered borderline and having to be adjusted; like not being allowed a steel outer barrel and us having to have plastic ones or similar. But i seriously doubt that'll happen, none of the internals of an airsoft gun can be modified to fire a bullet, infact thanks to Tokyo Marui the general design of AEG gearbox is such that it isn't possible to make one with enough FPS to stand a chance of killing someone with a metal bb etc, nowhere near even the power of an air-rifle (10-12x the power of an airsoft gun). So essentially all we have is a metal/plastic object of the same dimensions. If you're going to have to make all the internals of a gun anyways, it'd be easier to build a bespoke casing for it, rather than use an airsoft one.

 

Personally i don't care, we'll always be able to have something that shoots a plastic BB. I've already got a Thundermall (permitted in various countries where RIF are banned). So for me my only issue would be if so many people rage-quit i've no-one to shoot anymore, and perhaps feeling abit shafted if i wasn't compensated for the RIFs i have to hand in. I'm sure the TA could benefit from absorbing all the milsimmers, and airsoft in general could benefit by loosing people with delusions of 'pro operator' and the attitude that seems to come with it (these are the two archetypes of airsofter i'm certain would quit on the spot)

[shortman]

The devil as always is in the details.

 

In Category C, the following points are added:

"5.

Alarm and signal weapons, salute and acoustic weapons as well as

replicas

 

That tiny parts at the very end is what would essentially screw airsoft as we know it. Under EU law a Cat C firearm is

 

Category C - Firearms subject to declaration

1. Repeating long firearms other than those listed in category B, point 6.

2. Long firearms with single-shot rifled barrels.

3. Semi-automatic long firearms other than those in category B, points 4 to 7.

4. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is not less than 28 cm.

 

You are then almost certainly into serial numbers, shotgun certificate style registration and all the other limitations that buying/selling/owning real firearms places on people

I dint say they arnt mentioned. But they clearly state that rif's that could be converted to fire combustable projectiles etc etc. As i said in my early post. It does not effect airsoft guns. As you cant convert them to fire anything more. They are refering to movie props or emtyshell rif's etc etc. They are just trying to cover all agles with regaurds to producing an actual fire arm. Read the whole thing. Makes sense. Just doesnt effect us.

[K@rl]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SqvQFq65t7E

[Gaspod4933]

https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-eu-you-cannot-stop-terrorism-by-restricting-legal-gun-ownership?recruiter=358489280&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

[Sacarathe]

https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-eu-you-cannot-stop-terrorism-by-restricting-legal-gun-ownership?recruiter=358489280&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

 

 

Someone didn't read the 2nd post

[Yams]

I dint say they arnt mentioned. But they clearly state that rif's that could be converted to fire combustable projectiles etc etc. As i said in my early post. It does not effect airsoft guns. As you cant convert them to fire anything more. They are refering to movie props or emtyshell rif's etc etc. They are just trying to cover all agles with regaurds to producing an actual fire arm. Read the whole thing. Makes sense. Just doesnt effect us.

 

 

 

1h.

For the purposes of this Directive, "replica firearms" shall mean objects that have the physical appearance of a firearm, but are manufactured in such a way that they cannot be converted to firing a shot or expelling a bullet or projectile by the action of a combustible propellant.

 

Straight up seems clear that whatever is decided on this matter airsoft guns are exactly the type of thing that will be swept up in what happens. Now hopefully Colonel Kurtz will be proved right in airsoft kit being ruled out of any analysis, but thats no reason to sit idly by and just hope for that outcome.

 

edited for my rubbish post game spelling