Franken-AK Build - Opinions Needed

[Ian_Gere]

I love the look of PBS-4 suppressors. The design seems to shout, "We're Russian: we don't care what you think of it; you'll be smirking on the other side of your face when it's pointed at you!" And I have an aluminium one which is approx 45mm wide across the 'bottle', but with an internal diameter of about 26mm, and 'neck' OD of approx 28mm / ID 8mm - so it weighs 540g, which is bloody heavy to have on the end of even a short barrel like an AKS-74U, which is what the real steel was made for. Now Phatima, my Krinkov, is ICS and full steel, so you'd think that the weight would balance ok... but it doesn't, not with the stock extended let alone folded. It makes carrying her for long periods annoying due to being front-heavy - the stock, although steel, is after all just a couple of U section rods and a connecting piece.

I had been planning a build based on a G&P aluminium receiver and a real 'steel' Izhmash manufactured wooden '74 stock which, had it still proved too light, I could have stuffed with a heavy iron bar in the space for the cleaning tool cylinder*. But the bloke whom I had asked to drill the stock out for me so that the receiver lug would fit into it (whom i had considered, if not a friend exactly, someone with whom I was on good matey terms and he was also my downstairs neighbour ffs) has disappeared with both the receiver and stock. I mean, what a cunt! He's not even into airsoft and it's not like i was asking him to do it for free either - there was a drink in it for him. V^^VGrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

*I have 4 of these bars which came inside a crappy bright orange springer Beretta CX4 Storm which I bought in the hope of being able to turn it into an AEG for a Battlestar Galactica loadout - yeah, well internally it is so shit that the only way to do it would be to basically smother everything in place with a hot glue gun, so that has gone firmly on the back burner until I come up with a better idea or can be arsed to create some kind of mould I can grease up so the hot glue doesn't stick so I can then fit AEG innards into the spaces left when it hardens. In the meantime These lumps of iron have proved far more useful than i would have imagined, had i known they were inside when i bought the poxy thing. But, as is my wont, I digress...

But then I picked up some of an AK-47 Beta Spetsnaz front end dirt cheap. It's plastic but surprisingly decent quality, so possibly TM, and I have a few bits spare like the end caps for handguards, rear sights, screws, bolts, body pins... so a plan began to form in my mind - a very short AK with light forward parts and heavier rear end (and by all means go there gentlemen, I may be too jaded to make the effort for such little reward, but I'm as likely to snigger at Beavis & Butt Head -esque comments as the next overgrown boy). The initial problem is that there is no steel receiver within my budget (possibly no longer being manufactured) which will fit with the TM barrel base assembly, only VFC / LCT clones. With those I can find available being much of a muchness in terms of no side rail mount, I'm fairly well decided on buying another G&P receiver - the last one I had was good and robust and then there is the few tines of extra metal sticking out the back to attach the stock, compared to the King Arms, Classic Army and TM Clones plus it has a more substantial stock-lug than the G&G, which is also magnesium, so probably lighter than I'm after.

So the plan thus far will look like this, but without the trades...

I also really dislike the look of Crane stocks and their ilk, but I do want an extendible stock on this gun, plus for the role I have in mind, FIBUA, a folding stock would also be a bonus (more on the 'logic' of the gun later). I do like the look of those LR300 stocks and since they are made from quite chunky metal, that would fit the plan. Like this...

The other week I ordered an Ak to M4 Stock Adapter which will fit the G&P style AK Receiver, so this type of stock will work and at 750g it should do the trick of balancing the gun even folded, but when i went looking for one I came across another couple which I think could look great too, so now I can't decide...

...I wasn't sure this^^ Tanker style one would be heavy enough to balance the suppressor,

but according to airsoft-club they weigh 1/2 a Kilo. But there's also this which I've seen called both HM and CM (any help with the name wba):

...which weighs 550g and the way it folds up like that is tdb for packing into a kitbag!

I'll also need a vertical foregrip which needs to be light. Really it ought to combine a torch mount, because there isn't enough rail space for a separate piece of kit, but there are very few i like the look of. There's no way i'm spending $60+ on one either when i can get a better torch for <$15
I love the look of these:

...but i've only seen them @wgc and black is oos.

Still, I'm going to paint it all anyway so i could get a tan one. Can you imagine that in front of an AK drum mag? Tomski gun! Not sure that I will use a drum mag, but I definitely don't want it as tall as Phatima with an RPK mag, perhaps not as tall as a '47 banana-mag, but if i was going to put up with the rattle from those 220rnd short AK hicaps, i may as well put a 2500rnd drum on it and save myself the blasted winding! If I did go for the last of these three stocks, maybe a foregrip like this would suit the style better:

It'll also need a red dot, because the front and rear irons are far too close together. I have two different rear sight replacement mounts, one for a Docter MRDS and the other which puts a 3" rail above where the sights go, so i could use my C-more clone as i have a Kobra clone on order for Morena, my AK-74. I dunno though - for balance it may turn out better to have the optic above the top cover and I do have a spare side mount which i could attempt to fit, but i have to say i'm not convinced that without workshop tools i could fit it well enough to use and i also have my doubts about the width of the nut vs the width of the gearbox. I'm not sure i could bring myself to get one of those top cover mounted rails though. I dunno, i expect that if there is a centre of gravity problem I could sort it out by gaffer taping an iron rod to whichever stock i choose - i've done that on Sabine to offset her aluminium RAS vs plastic receiver and it looks fine and feels way better for her being heavier per se.

Anyway people, opinions please and any suggestions for stuff i haven't mentioned would be greatly appreciated.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Ian_Gere
changed pic to keep up with decisions

[Russe11]

Didn't read it all, as I got bored halfway through, but I think the gist of it is 'Hey I want to make an AKS-74U with this fancy suppressor, which stock and other bits should I use?'

I would question why you are wanting the really heavy suppressor because it looks all cool and Russian and then adding an M4 style stock? But thats just me preferring looks over function

Had you considered making a mold of the suppressor and then making one out of lighter material?

Could you fit one of these into a cut down wooden stock in some way? It would add the weight and look frickin awesome.

[straffham]

Looks a good project Ian! That HM/CM stock looks the db's! Personally I think I'd go for that on looks alone, just looks so badass! May be lacking in weight though, and I've no idea how rigid it would be, but that goes for any sliding stock in fairness. As it folds to the left there could be issues with it interfering with a side mount rail, but you'd have same issue with the LR 300 stock too probably. That Tanker style stock looks good too but again the sliding rails could well interfere with holding the pistol grip, assuming its wide enough to clear the pistol grip/receiver to start with, and maybe it just looks a bit too "complex" for a Soviet gun? I know what you mean about disliking crane stocks, but what about an ordinary original M4 stock? You could stuff the stock tube with weight too to counter the suppressor, and it looks simple and functional as befits a Soviet style gun.

Tbh I wouldn't use one of those folding grips for 2 reasons, firstly they are aren't very rigid in the vertical position, and second that big bolt head release digs into your hand badly, frankly they are uncomfortable, I had a very similar one on a tactical AK and it very quickly got relegated to my bits box. That skeleton grip looks just the ticket however imo.

With the short sight radius I agree a red dot would be a good idea, if the top cover is solid enough that's where I would put it in an ideal world rather than ahead of the top cover, but it could mean a bodge to fit a rail on there. If a Galil top cover would fit, that has a small flat mounting area at the rear which could be utilised for either a dot, or even irons if something the right height could be found.

Anyways just my thoughts, also inspiring me to get the stock on my own hybrid AK sorted!

[team flex]

wow, that would be a project. I like the l300, but tbh I like all of them, and want to see this project completed! by the way, I'm no very knowledgeable with AK variants, where the hell are you going to find a magazine that long?!

[Samurai]

You can put the Russian tourniquet on the skeleton stock, that would look authentic. That could even hide some weights if that's needed.

My problem with the AK beta that it has never been a real gun.

If you use a plastic body, only you will know it's plastic. I've seen many ppl taking a cyma AK in hand, examining it, and they couldn't decide if it was metal or plastic. If you even paint the gun then even better.

 

I only had a pbs-1 once. There is a "metal" and there is an aluminum version of it. The "metal" is extremely heavy, while the alu is really light. Maybe try getting a suppressor made from some lighter material, I don't know if you have that choice with the pbs-4.

[Finius]

STOP THIS THREAD RIGHT NOW.

 

Youre turning me on and I cant handle it

[Ian_Gere]

Didn't read it all, as I got bored halfway through, but I think the gist of it is 'Hey I want to make an AKS-74U with this fancy suppressor, which stock and other bits should I use?'

Sort of, but not really - the Beta Spetsnaz front end is shorter than an AKS-74U by 2" / not a lot but crucial to the centre of gravity when you consider how heavy the suppressor is.

 

I would question why you are wanting the really heavy suppressor because it looks all cool and Russian and then adding an M4 style stock? But thats just me preferring looks over function

That's a good point! The thing is there is no real steel Beta Spetsnaz AK-47 afaik. Like the G3 SAS and M4's without a buffer tube, it's an airsoft only creation.* So I have far less scruples about taking liberties with the overall design, although I will get a ribbed top cover, because that will hint at being chambered for 5.45mm ammunition which is correct for the PBS-4 suppressor.

 

*And if you think about it you couldn't control a gun that short firing 7.62mm rounds - the slanted AKM compensator is designed to bring some control to the AK-47's major problem regarding accuracy, ie muzzle climb. The AKS-74U also has a problem with jams caused by insufficient gas pressure on the piston - the rumour is that the PBS-4 is designed to overcome that issue / for either of these reasons the Beta Spetsnaz would fail irl.

Had you considered making a mold of the suppressor and then making one out of lighter material?

Could you fit one of these into a cut down wooden stock in some way? It would add the weight and look frickin awesome.

I hadn't thought of either. The thing is that part of my motivation is to use stuff which I already have. I bought the BS front end basically to make an AK to sell out of my bits box, because they are pretty popular. But since John ran off with the parts which would have been crucial to my schedule of projects, I've reassessed what i'm doing. TBH i can't see how i could attach a tube mounted stock to an airsoft AK wooden stock, because the interior is drilled out for the stock lug and to allow for wiring. I'm just not going to buy another real steel stock and then saw it down to shape a tube from it. I spose i could just start with a piece of hardwood tho, but then i would want wooden hand guards... I have some faux wood plastic handguards the right length, but they look shit.

[Ian_Gere]

Looks a good project Ian! That HM/CM stock looks the db's! Personally I think I'd go for that on looks alone, just looks so badass! May be lacking in weight though, and I've no idea how rigid it would be, but that goes for any sliding stock in fairness. As it folds to the left there could be issues with it interfering with a side mount rail, but you'd have same issue with the LR 300 stock too probably.

Yeah, a side mount is always going to be a potential problem with a folding stock, although the LR300 one looks like the hinge is quite wide, that the folded stock would not be right against the receiver, but I agree the HM/CM one does look the total db. It may be worth doing without the side mount just for the sake of having it!

That Tanker style stock looks good too but again the sliding rails could well interfere with holding the pistol grip, assuming its wide enough to clear the pistol grip/receiver to start with, and maybe it just looks a bit too "complex" for a Soviet gun?

TBH I had not even considered how low those rails are. You might be right that they would interfere with the grip and yeah, i know what you mean about "too complex" - it does look a bit like something designed to be used on the space shuttle or something! It would be the most difficult of the 3 to add weight to without looking horribly bodged, if it turned out to be too light. I think that's that one consigned to the bin. But no, I'm not going for a buffer tube style stock at all - they all look yank, and while Russe11 is right about the LR300 being basically an M4 stock, it doesn't actually look like American design.

Tbh I wouldn't use one of those folding grips for 2 reasons, firstly they are aren't very rigid in the vertical position, and second that big bolt head release digs into your hand badly, frankly they are uncomfortable, I had a very similar one on a tactical AK and it very quickly got relegated to my bits box. That skeleton grip looks just the ticket however imo.

If you mean one of these, yeah mine is usually in my bits box too!

I suspect that the skeleton grip may be heavier than this proj calls for, especially if, as i've just thought, I add one of those rail extensions so I could mount a torch as well, but it does look soooooo cool lol!

With the short sight radius I agree a red dot would be a good idea, if the top cover is solid enough that's where I would put it in an ideal world rather than ahead of the top cover, but it could mean a bodge to fit a rail on there. If a Galil top cover would fit, that has a small flat mounting area at the rear which could be utilised for either a dot, or even irons if something the right height could be found.

Anyways just my thoughts, also inspiring me to get the stock on my own hybrid AK sorted!

I can imagine what you mean there but i'm not sure i've seen that kind of top cover for sale as an individual part. Have you got a link? There is this type which patrolbase used to sell...

...which are oos.

But they are a lot better looking than those hideous fuckers with a massive tri-rail lump all along the top cover.

 

Yeah, pull your finger out! Get your AK out for the lads!

[Ian_Gere]

where the hell are you going to find a magazine that long?!

They are RPK mags. IRL they are also used with AKS-74Us. They are not as common in airsoft retailers as 47 and 74 mags, but they're not hard to find.

[Ian_Gere]

You can put the Russian tourniquet on the skeleton stock, that would look authentic. That could even hide some weights if that's needed.

My problem with the AK beta that it has never been a real gun.

That's a good idea with the tourniquet - it would look similar to how they do wrapped around the under folding AK-47S stock. But I think I'll not use that stock now. As I said above, yeah you're right, but nonetheless it will make a gun on which I can put the PBS-4 I have to use, so I'm going ahead with it.

If you use a plastic body, only you will know it's plastic. I've seen many ppl taking a cyma AK in hand, examining it, and they couldn't decide if it was metal or plastic. If you even paint the gun then even better.

Yeah I'm not choosing a metal receiver out of any snobbery. That picture above which I've used to illustrate what the gun will look like with the decisions I've already made / parts i already have is the plastic body of my CM.028U and even though I have put it through a fair bit of abuse, it still looks good imo. But it just wouldn't be heavy enough to balance the suppressor.

I only had a pbs-1 once. There is a "metal" and there is an aluminum version of it. The "metal" is extremely heavy, while the alu is really light. Maybe try getting a suppressor made from some lighter material, I don't know if you have that choice with the pbs-4.

There are a few different makes of PBS-4 and probably there are lighter ones, although I suspect they may be the $80+ ones. Maybe mine is zamak not aluminium, I dunno as neither are magnetic, but the point is I have it and so I want to use it. I think it would be quite difficult to sell anyway.

[Ian_Gere]

STOP THIS THREAD RIGHT NOW.

 

Youre turning me on and I cant handle it

Mate, i have been so fucked up recently that i haven't spent much. I have the wonga to proceed and, having discovered some really sexy parts within my financial reach, proceed i shall!

 

Right, I've made a decision - the skeleton foregrip it is. Just as well because having bought the dark earth one because black was oos, DE is now oos also. Phew! I absolutely hate it when I think i probably will buy something and by the time i get round to it they run out of stock V^^VGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! I was intending to buy a really cool sling from chaka98 on fleabay for the PP-19 Bizon i'm buying, but that has gone oos :'(

[Ian_Gere]

Hmmmm... after putting the skeleton foregrip in the pic, i'm now wondering if it will actually fit. I may have to grind down some of the parts on either side of the rail clamps. It's difficult to gauge how much to expand pics grabbed from different sites to fit them against pics i took with my phone. Looking at it now, maybe i've made the saw style pistol grip too big. The receivers are different - this has the classic AK-47 collar which a short AK grip fits against but the G&P one I've ordered with this style of grip doesn't have it and I sized the saw grip pic insert to fit the width of that collar...

 

Ah well, we shall soon see. And Finius, you will come

 

So my friends, the choice of stock is narrowed to either the LR300, or the HM/CM ultra-modern looking one.

 

Mag choice is either:

plain AK-74, which goes with the PBS-4 but not the receiver and I have several so don't need to buy any more;

plain AK-47, which goes with the receiver but not the suppressor and I also have several;

short AK-47, which offers the same dilemma but fits my vision of 'submachinegun stylee an ting', of which I have 1 only

AK-47 drum mag, also the same dilemma but possibly very cool :/ and i'd need to buy one

 

I think that for the time being the side mount is off the table. I may revisit it when i have the receiver and whichever stock I choose.

Which leaves MRDS, forward mounted red dot, either the C-More I already have or perhaps a 551 or 556, or a top cover with a rail attached, which would leave the choice of which optic very much more open, perhaps the 551 with EOLAD laser I have, because it doesn't really work with my G36KV.

 

I'd appreciate your thoughts, people.

[straffham]

The LR300 stock is fairly heavy and comfortable. I have a A&K LR300 long with a suppressor, which has the battery in the foregrip yet its not particularly front heavy. Without a side rail it should sit nicely on your gun I reckon.

Mag wise I guess use one appropriate to needs, if its your primary go for the ginormous RPK, or as sniper back up then the short spets one would be less cumbersome?

That railed top cover looks good, have to say I've not seen one anywhere but equally haven't been searching extensively, but yeah it would open up sighting options. The Cyma Galil one I have has a flat mounting for the rear sight which is bolted in place and gives a nice long sight base for iron sights, though I guess a short rail could be fitted if preferred.

I also found the rail on that foregrip just a tad short even for stubby grip attachments so it could be a struggle. . . . . !

[straffham]

I will try to get a pic up of my AK effort!

[Monty]

Did a quick mock up,

 

 

I do like it a lot, though you'll probably have to leave out the fore grip, or use a short magazine as I think the fore grip will get in the way.

[straffham]

Not to hijack the thread, but by way of experiment I tested my Galil top cover on my AK project as suggested earlier in the thread . . . . .it fits fine (better than the original!) and shows the rear sight which is in a much better position than the usual AK rear leaf sight, it just sits a little high in this set up. Obviously, same as with Ian I am considering stock options: its a Cyma plastic receiver that the folding stock broke off so the holes were filled (TM based clone), and fitted with a modified TM Beta Spets outer barrel front end and real wood AIMS foregrip:

Also refering to Ians quest for a new stock, pictured is the folding stock on my Cyma Galil, similar to the original LR300 style but obviously without the complication of a AK to M4 mounting system so possibly another option?:

[Ian_Gere]

No, I've made the decision to break with Russian design for the stock specifically so that I can have an extendible one - I have long arms and stock length is something that bugs me about a lot of guns. The only one I have which fits me comfortably without obvious modification is on Jetta my G36KV - Svetlana the SVD has 40mm of oak attached in place of her butt plate - Sabine my CM.028U has a random piece of rubber which i think fell off a car taped to her her foldible stock (but it could do with being thicker) and Morena my CM.048 has one of those Element rubber butt pads, which again could do with being thicker.

 

I've got 3 RPK-74 midcaps and 1 hicap, but I don't want that long look, or the restriction it creates on aiming while prone. The idea for this build is 'solid but sleek'... I don't actually have any RPK mag pouches mind. I'm going to buy at least 1 double modern RPK pouch soon to carry a spare tube mag for a PP-19 Bizon as a sniper back up, so I spose I should go ahead and buy at least 1 more (the PP-19 is coming with 4 mags though so in theory i need 3 double RPK mag pouches) because I intend to find out what is stopping Phatima AKS-74U from feeding BB's properly and begin using her as a primary again.

 

TBH, if there was a way to do it without building the whole gun from scratch out of sheet steel and aluminium blocks, with a CAD set up and CNC mill, I'd love to have a horizontal drum mag, like that yank submachinegun with the ridiculous ROF, so all modern looking, not like a Lewis Gun.

 

Don't worry about hijacking the thread, Straff - your gun is not too dissimilar so it makes sense to share a thread on their builds. As i said above, my main reason for this thread is to get opinions and the more options we consider between the 2 guns, the better afaiac. Eventually I'll be choosing internals as well, so it'll be a resource for anyone who wants to build funky AK's. Are you planning any internal upgrades also? I do quite like that top cover, although I would put a short rail on it, possibly riveted on to reduce the size of the bit inside, to leave more battery space, because 11.1V LiPo's don't go under AK top covers without a bit of persuasion as is - no need to make it smaller with nuts and bolts. I've only recently started using red dot sights properly and i'm hooked - it is a better way of target acquisition than what i tend to do which is watch the trajectory of the BB over the irons and correct for the next shot.

 

Monty, thanks for doing that, mate Is there any way you could do a similar mock up using the LR300 stock and a drum mag?

[Monty]

Monty, thanks for doing that, mate Is there any way you could do a similar mock up using the LR300 stock and a drum mag?

 

No problem, I'll have a go at it.

[Monty]

Done!

 

[Ian_Gere]

Done!

 

Aha! Well, let's have it right, gentlemen... that is an eminently plausible gun!

 

Any way we could see it with the HM/CM stock, Monty?

 

Oh and bloody hell, thanks mate!

 

Just bought the last CYMA 2500rnds AK drum mag from dualdealshop for £39.50

Edited September 5, 2014 by Ian_Gere
autism / drum mag decision

[Monty]

Any way we could see it with the HM/CM stock, Monty?

 

It's the most vile stock I've ever seen, I'll do it now.

[Monty]

 

There. I hope you're happy that you made be put on that stock..

[Ian_Gere]

 

There. I hope you're happy that you made be put on that stock..

I like it. No, really... I mean, i get it that it's not normal. But it's the very novelty that does it for me...

Thanks for doing that, against your principles and all!

[straffham]

I like it. No, really... I mean, i get it that it's not normal. But it's the very novelty that does it for me...

Thanks for doing that, against your principles and all!

Yeah I agree, its the mutts nuts, and MUST be done, no one else will have one the same, that's for sure! Nice work Monty! Although using the foregrip may be tricky with using a drum mag?

[Ian_Gere]

Yeah, TBH anything other than those 220rnd short hicaps may be awkward with a foregrip. Ideally what I need is a rail adapter that adds some extra rail length forward. I've never seen one like I'm imagining though. I'll do a mock up pic in a while.

 

Edit to add: I'm obviously not familiar enough with what a gwaan because...

 

If it does turn out to be awkward i could stick this on upside down and move the foregrip forward.