Well-known airsoft team banned from ALL US Milsim sites

[Unrustle_Thine_Jimmies]

I actually thought the tactical folding bicycles GMR thought of was a brilliant idea.

 

You have to admire the coordination and teamwork they have though.

[TPI]

They did and that's when they were Ordered to LEAVE the site, The time before that they did and got told off by another OLCS about being on the wrong side of the road because a second OLCS member told them completely different!

[adam bussey]

They did and that's when they were Ordered to LEAVE the site, The time before that they did and got told off by another OLCS about being on the wrong side of the road because a second OLCS member told them completely different!

they only did so after a very long winded argument

[TPI]

Wow Adam Really? did you actually pay attention to the Video? to the GMR Podcast? I'm Stunned into utter amazement if an arguement that last's less than 5 Minute's is a 'Very long Winded' Argument of course if you have Evidence to the contrary Produce it already!

[adam bussey]

if you're arguing about orders that is too long

[Chippins]

in milsim there is a chain of command and they should follow it!

Fucking this, you sign up for the event knowing that there is a chain of command, and you damn well follow it. Imagine if you'd done something like that IRL.

[Airsoft-Ed]

Fucking this, you sign up for the event knowing that there is a chain of command, and you damn well follow it. Imagine if you'd done something like that IRL.

Yeah, I 100% agree. BUT! Where Adam is wrong, is in the fact that a marshal isn't there to command you. They are there to ensure the players obey the rules of the game. Take their hits etc.

 

Following rules shouldn't involve making people go a certain way and do a certain thing.

 

I'm not taking any sides, just responding to this chain of command thing.

[Ian_Gere]

Adam, are you aware that the obligation of a soldier is to follow all legal orders given to them within their chain of command? It is not to follow any order given by a superior at any time or under any circumstances. It may not seem right to some people, but in reality a soldier has an obligation to ascertain that any order given is legal and from their proper chain of command if s/he has any doubts.

 

Remember "I was only following orders." is no defence.

[Chippins]

Yeah, I 100% agree. BUT! Where Adam is wrong, is in the fact that a marshal isn't there to command you. They are there to ensure the players obey the rules of the game. Take their hits etc.

 

Following rules shouldn't involve making people go a certain way and do a certain thing.

 

I'm not taking any sides, just responding to this chain of command thing.

He wasnt a marshal, he was the US sides CO for the day, everyone playing signed a disclaimer saying that essentially said you have to follow orders or else you can fuck off home, or something to that effect.

 

Adam,

are you aware that the obligation of a soldier is to follow all legal

orders given to them within their chain of command? It is not to follow

any order given by a superior at any time or under any circumstances. It

may not seem right to some people, but in reality a soldier has an

obligation to ascertain that any order given is legal and from their

proper chain of command if s/he has any doubts.

 

Remember "I was only following orders." is no defence.

Also, you are not helping out at the back, go clear these buildings, (unless you are fairly sure that it's a suicide mission) is hardly one of those orders that invokes that right to say nope, not doing it.

[M_P]

Tpi, I never mentioned bikes? I was referring to them going out of bounds and not taking hits.

[Ian_Gere]

McKnight wasn't simply a CO, he was part of the organisers' team, so a sort of player-marshal.

[Chippins]

I'm basing most of my reasoning around this, It's pretty interesting but fizzles out around 30 mins in, it has most bases covered and seems to be fairly neutral. http://thisweekinairsoft.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/twia38.mp3

 

Edit: just realised Adam posted this... for a TL;DR, it basically said theyre a great bunch of guys untill they get onto the field, where they have a habbit of acting like bellends.

[Ian_Gere]

Wow, I didn't hear neutrality, George. I heard a consensus that had it in for Ronin.

[Airsoft-Ed]

Having now listened to the podcast, or at least most of it, I think I'm on GMR's side.

 

I accept that they didn't follow the chain of command, but I think that everyone at this event was bumming the shit out of "Colonel McKnight" to the extent where he might as well have been the actual Jesus. The event organiser gave him his full title every single time he mentioned him. He never even referred to him, as "Him" or "He" or anything, it was always, "Colonel McKnight this" and "Colonel McKnight, that" he's a god damn ordinary dude, not a deity!

They swore at him and insulted him a bit, ok. Big deal. People fall out. He knows they do their own thing, of course they were going to get pissed. They scream in his face, of course he's going to get pissed. What's the big deal?

The bummers just sided with McKnight and there were more of them = GMR get banned.

 

They banned them from the event, just because they disrespected another human being. 'Cos he is just another human being. He's human, they're human. It's airsoft, not real. So what if they yelled at him?

 

In the context of pretend war, what gives McKnight the status to have anyone who stands against him banned from the event? Is he Hitler? Is Operation Lion Claw a Nazi Regime?

No?

Then I think it's a massive over reaction.

As for GMR in general, regarding them being dicks, I can understand the argument from both sides. They break rules for the sake of realism because it's what they do. It makes them dicks, but they're just chasing realism. Event organisers ought to be aware of them and how they operate/react to stuff and adjust accordingly, or bar them.

[Chippins]

Ok yeah, the first 10 minutes is all like he insulted one of the greatest american heroes yada yada, but it did even out a little, maybe it seems one sided because the guy actually is a dick. I don't know, I've never really liked them as a group, always seemed a bit too arrogant in his own videos, never mind other peoples. (Though I do agree getting bannded for breaking a window that was already broken was a bit much)

 

Edit: but yeah bieng banned from loads of other sites is a bit much, sitting the rest of the event out in the sin bin would have been a lesson learned

[adam bussey]

"As for GMR in general, regarding them being dicks, I can understand the argument from both sides. They break rules for the sake of realism because it's what they do. It makes them dicks, but they're just chasing realism. Event organisers ought to be aware of them and how they operate/react to stuff and adjust accordingly, or bar them."

 

yes but the event organisers gave them the chance to act within the rules and mission and GMR just thrown it back in there faces, so they got banned, the straw that broke the camels back.

[dazzer306]

At the end of the day they broke the rules, they got what they deserved . Lets face you break the the rules at your local sites and see what happens, I know at combat south they say you'll get a ban simple enough , rules are there for he sake of yours and others people safety on site. If you want to abseil down the side of your flat/house or what ever, you fall break your ankle and the top five inches of your prized weapon wedges itself up your arse then it's tuff tits as you have no rules to follow.

[Airsoft-Ed]

But it seems that the only rule they broke was to not go to the front of the battle.

 

They weren't out of bounds, they were just at the back clearing buildings. No one ever made out that they weren't allowed to be doing that. Sure it might've been a bit pointless because there was no one occupying any of the buildings, but they were still within their rights to hang back and clear them if they wanted, as far as anyone's explained so far anyway.

 

Then McKnight told them to go to the front, they didn't want to, said the squad leader was busy. Then all the chain of command balls occurred and then, simply because McKnight is Jesus, everyone sided against GMR and they got banned.

 

Seems pretty stupid to me. The event organisers and McKnight seem to be acting like toddlers and spitting their dummies out over nothing.

"They didn't do what I said, wahwahwah. I know, let's ban them."

It's all a bit pathetic whichever way you look at it.

[Ian_Gere]

As far as I understand it GMR never were told not to do any of the things they are being criticised for doing on grounds of H&S. The bloke from Lion's Claw in the podcast even said he assumed nobody would need to be told not to get on the roof.

 

At my local site there is a village field which contains wooden buildings. Not often, but I have heard marshals include "Don't try to climb on top of the buildings." in the briefing; every time they do make it plain that nobody is to clamber/jump over a two foot fence into a graveyard surrounding a church. They also have stopped us using the upstairs of the fort when it was slippery and also when the stairs were knackered. They always tell everyone where the boundaries of the game area are.

 

Assuming that people do not need to be told something, especially people with a track record of pushing the envelope, is poor organisation.

[Airsoft-Ed]

I agree. I think the organisers failed to do their job properly and GMR's reputation served well as a scape goat.

[M_P]

That's probably true, maybe they were looking to find a reason to ban them. But remember this isn't the first time they've been banned from Us milsim events, its has happened to them before.

If you look at some of the US and even Canadian forums, the majority of people who have played either with or against them remark that they don't take hits and use each other as shields once dead.

 

In my opinion, yes they may well have been the victims in this case but its also likely that they were treading on thin ice so to speak after their previous offences.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I don't condone what the event organisers have done, just suggesting a reason why.

[NickM]

I've been following this story as its been developing and as said previously there are always 3 sides to a story. I think this has become very public and because of that the people involved have gotten backed into a corner from which there is no way out without some damage to reputations so they will continue to repeat their own story. I don't know either side personally had only heard a little bit about OpLionClaw and nothing about GMR before but my 2p.

 

Most of the airsoft community wasn't there and the facts are being muddled. The video that GMR released does have some cutting and editing, both sides agree there was a significant time dif between the two confrontations with McKnight and being kicked off the site. Its also a little odd that the number of people in GMR that were kitted out with video cameras hasn't been reflected in the edit either, but the from the video the GMR claim of being manhandled by OLC staff appears to be truthful. Its also clear that things escalated when probably there wasn't a need, its a game after all but people get heated. I've thrown my toys out of the pram occasionally, we are all guilty of that sometimes.

 

However even in GMR's videos they admit to pushing the boundaries of organisers rules, they also admit that they do it regularly. Chances are the various national events ( as airsoft is a small community) are totally aware of how GMR operate and are making an example of them, the bigger they are the harder the fall.

 

In truth I and many of us would probably admit to occasionally trying to bend some of the H&S guidance to gain just a little better fire position etc. But some of the stuff they pulled definitely breaks not bends my own first rule of airsoft "Don't be a dick.". Jumping from the 3rd floor of a building onto the roof of a 2 story building def a stupid idea. Breaking a window ( half broken or not) in a building due to be demolished, I see where you are coming from but its not my property so I wouldn't break it, plus the H&S implication of broken glass now on the floor has increased the risk.

 

Finally Mil-sim, I thought the idea of this type of game is to follow the orders given by those in command as if you were really in the forces. Yes whoever it was that stated soldiers can refuse to follow an order if it will lead to an illegal action is correct. However from what I have seen they are given orders to carry out specific tasks in specific ways and they refuse or worse go off in a huff f'ing about ignoring the order, now in most institutions I know if a superior gave you an instruction and you didn't like it, it then becomes your duty to try to reason with them, not say you are going to do it then do it your way instead. Mind you how you word/tone it is up to you and might have changed the outcome.

 

If you haven't seen it, there is a video explaining a ban they received from a previous Milsim game in the first few mins of the video. At 29 mins they show some of their training and selection for new players, seems to me they take themselves very seriously. As it happens I've joined pretty much the anti team at one of my local sites, the only requirements are a love of airsoft, and having a sense of humour so their process is a bit weird to me.

 

[Dan_W]

In summary:

 

Did they deserve to get banned on this certain occasion? - Probably a bit harsh

 

Are they bellends? - Yes

 

Is it for the good of the hobby and enjoyment of others they were banned? - Almost certainly

[SheriffHD]

In summary:

 

Did they deserve to get banned on this certain occasion? - Probably a bit harsh

 

Are they bellends? - Yes

 

Is it for the good of the hobby and enjoyment of others they were banned? - Almost certainly

/Thread.

[Ian_Gere]

I disagree. They are bell-ends. The organisers are bell-ends. McKnight, regardless of his previous acheivements, was a bell-end on that occasion...

 

But it's not good for the sport to make up spurious reasons to ban people, or to make mountains out of molehills. If Lion's Claw decided that GMR were just too much of a pain in the arse to have around, they should say that. As Ed said though, all the McKnight bumming doesn't make anyone look good.

 

My point is that if we were to go to Lion's Claw, have we got a definite understanding of what behaviour would lead to us being banned? I submit that we don't. We have suspicions, we know the obvious extremes, but how close to such an amorphous edge could we push it?

 

Do we decline to flank the enemy because the boundaries aren't clearly marked and we're afraid of being out of bounds? How about giving someone a leg up onto a perfectly sound roof to act as a spotter? Turning up with some equipment the organisers have not foreseen, like genuine bulletproof sheilds, accurate infantry mortors, or just mega ROF AEG's?

 

Making it all about McKnight when anyone with even a rudimentary grasp of logic can tell that's bollocks, but alluding to past events, makes it unclear. Also it's pretty cowardly to hide behind McKnight's supposedly besmirched honour / injured pride too.