Buying from CRW without UKARA?

[AK47frizzle]

CRW seem to have a great stock of weapons and with all the shipping costs added up, it seems alot cheaper to buy there than uk sites.

 

I know that you can be gifted RIFs, but CRW can send the gun in 2 parts, so ukara is not needed.

 

Since sending the gun in 2 parts is technically buying separate pieces together and building them together, would it be ok for my parents to buy it and them gift me the built RIF? Or would what CRW are doing is illegal and would need for me to two tone it myself afterwards?

[Deva]

Just because they are doing it doesn't mean it's right.

 

You can't do it because you'd be manufacturing a RIF when you put it together.

 

UK shops do have a wide selection too.. and you save on not being hit with import fees.

[Zak Da Mack]

Also, couldn't customs confiscate it if they decide to search it?

[M_P]

Customs often hold onto half and wait to see if another half turn up too so you'd have to watch out for that.

 

You're under 18 so you can't buy one anyway.

[Zak Da Mack]

Customs often hold onto half and wait to see if another half turn up too so you'd have to watch out for that.

 

You're under 18 so you can't buy one anyway.

I think this is trying to bypass the law in a way but they don't really know what they're doing

http://www.crw-airsoft.com/for-uk-customers-50-c.asp

[M_P]

That's my point.

[Richard65]

Before they send you the gun in two pieces they will have been paid by you.so what do you do if customs sieze one or both parts?

 

What they are doing is probably legal just as it would be for them to ship all the pieces you need to build a gun - one bit in each parcel.

 

If your parents have a defence then they could buy a complete gun anyway. Without a defence they can not buy you a RIF from any online store.

[ScoobySnacks]

This does bring forth an interesting (technically at least, not suggesting anyone actually tries it) question.

 

If the parents buy two halve of a RIF, they are not buying a complete RIF as such, so do not need a defence. It's not illegal to own, or to buy parts for, a RIF. It is only manufacturing or importing an entire RIF that would classify as illegal. Also, as it is not a RIF it is legal (by my understanding) for the parents to take money for the parts of the RIF from their son. (I don't think there is any age limit on the sale of component parts of an IF, could be wrong).

 

So, child has given parents money. Parents have purchased gun in several bits. Parents hand over bits of gun to child who DOES have a defence(he skirmishes regularly at a site that holds public liability insurance).

 

As child has the defence, he can (by my understanding) quite legally "manufacture" the RIF (similar to painting a two tone etc.).

 

I'm sure there's a gaping hole in my logic there, and I certainly don't suggest anyone tries it, but can anyone tell me where that hole is?

 

I know it's rushed legislation, and quick legislation is invariably bad legislation, but is that as much of a loophole as it looks to me?

[RR01]

This does bring forth an interesting (technically at least, not suggesting anyone actually tries it) question.

 

If the parents buy two halve of a RIF, they are not buying a complete RIF as such, so do not need a defence. It's not illegal to own, or to buy parts for, a RIF. It is only manufacturing or importing an entire RIF that would classify as illegal. Also, as it is not a RIF it is legal (by my understanding) for the parents to take money for the parts of the RIF from their son. (I don't think there is any age limit on the sale of component parts of an IF, could be wrong).

 

So, child has given parents money. Parents have purchased gun in several bits. Parents hand over bits of gun to child who DOES have a defence(he skirmishes regularly at a site that holds public liability insurance).

 

As child has the defence, he can (by my understanding) quite legally "manufacture" the RIF (similar to painting a two tone etc.).

 

I'm sure there's a gaping hole in my logic there, and I certainly don't suggest anyone tries it, but can anyone tell me where that hole is?

 

I know it's rushed legislation, and quick legislation is invariably bad legislation, but is that as much of a loophole as it looks to me?

No, the child does NOT have a Defence. The defence applies to anyone over the age of 18 who is a full member of an insured skirmish site. By definition a minor cannot be a full member of any skirmish site, so they cannot avail themselves of any of the specific defences to the VCRA. If AK47frizzle persists in this idea he's likely to end up with his parents being in trouble, if caught, for both importing sufficient parts to illegally manufacture a RIF and then for encouraging a minor to complete such manufacture, as well as putting the whole sport / hobby in jeopardy by giving the government an excuse to remove the defences and bring in an outright ban. Not sure he would survive the collective anger of thousands of pissed off airsofters if that happened.

[ScoobySnacks]

Where does it say that you have to be over 18 years of age to be a member of a skirmish site? Also, the legislation does NOT say you have to be a member. It says that you have to be able to prove that you skirmish regularly at a site that has public liability insurance. I'm willing to concede there might well be a part of the relevant acts that I have missed, but if so could you point them out to me please.

 

Where in the law does it say it is illegal to import parts for RIF's?

 

Whilst I agree that it would be a pretty silly thing to do, I can't see how it could be actually contrary to any law, or any act of parliament. Again, I'd be pleased to be proven wrong!

 

The law is extremely badly written, and would appear to be riddled with loopholes. I'm not commenting on the ethical issues involved. My question was a purely theoretical one, call it a discussion starter. I'm not suggesting that someone should look for ways to circumvent the legislation. I'm merely asking people to actually take the time to read the legislation, and to learn the risks, rights and responsibilities involved!

[Tariq]

The law might not state you need to be over 18 to have a defense but it does say you have to be over 18 to buy any RIF or IF, regardless of a defense.

 

Under 18.... Can't buy anything.

 

The law for buying parts counts for knowingly buying parts to assemble into a whole gun.... thus manufacturing a RIF. ILLEGAL

 

If you actually read through the legislation its all there

[joshcowin]

under 18s cant even buy two tones,nether mind anything else

[ScoobySnacks]

Tariq, I have read the VCRA many times, and have never seen that anywhere in it. Can you tell me exactly where in the act it says it?

 

As I said, it's not a good idea to try and circumvent the law, or to use a loophole, I'm just interested to know whether it IS actually a loophole.

[Deva]

40 Supplying imitation firearms to minors

(1)After section 24 of the 1968 Act insert—

 

“24ASupplying imitation firearms to minors

 

(1)It is an offence for a person under the age of eighteen to purchase an imitation firearm.

 

(2)It is an offence to sell an imitation firearm to a person under the age of eighteen.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/40

[ScoobySnacks]

Yes devastator. I'm not saying it is not illegal to supply a minor with an IF or RIF by way of sale. But is it legal for a minor to purchase a barrel for a RIF? A Trigger mech? A body? A gearbox? You see where I'm going with this?

 

Where does it stop being "parts" and start being an "IF" or a "RIF"?

[Nutster]

You are buying the gun from crw, knowing full well they are going to split it into 2 'chunks' to send it, thus attempting to circumvent the law

 

Buying all the parts separately is exactly the same, you are manufacturing a rif, which whether we like it or not, without a defence is illegal

 

All that being said, until someone gets sent to court over this we will never know what is deemed as 'parts' and what is enough to be a 'rif'

[ScoobySnacks]

I'm not buying the gun from anyone!

 

As there is no age limit on buying RIF parts, then the child can buy them all. They are not doing anything illegal. They can then put them together if they have a valid defence. They've not purchased an IF, and they've got a valid defence against prosecution for manufacturing.

 

Like I said in my first post on this, I'm not advocating doing it. It would be silly, unless you fancy being the test case. I'm mainly using it as a torch to shine a light on the ridiculousness of the regulations and legislation as it stands.

[Deva]

I can see what you are saying, it isn't written in black and white. However, I would say it is fairly common sense that if you are not allowed to purchase an IF/RIF, then simply buying all the parts and making one comes under the same umbrella. The end result is exactly the same. By getting all the parts, you have effectively purchased an IF/RIF, it just isn't assembled.

 

If you don't plan on assembling them, fine. Run a massive parts store, no problem. But as soon as you assemble it all, different story.

[ScoobySnacks]

And therefore it isn't a RIF/IF.

 

Does an airsoft barrel resemble a firearm?

Does the body resemble a firearm? (ok, in some cases this might well be a yes)

Does the trigger resemble a firearm?

 

The law does not say that it is prohibited to purchase the parts of a RIF. In English law, if a thing is not specifically prohibited then it is assumed to be lawful and legal. The legislation does not specifically prohibit it ergo...

[Deva]

As I said, purchasing the parts, no problem. But, all the parts assembled to make an airsoft weapon must either be an IF or an RIF, it can't be neither?

 

I think you have missed my point slightly..

 

I'm sure there are many things not written in black and white as if you tried to cover every possible circumstance of how someone could do something, you would never finish writing.

 

You have to include a degree of common sense and see what the final result/repercussions in it are.

[ScoobySnacks]

No, I've not missed your point at all Dev. I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think it's correct.

 

Legislation (note, not law, but we won't go there) isn't based on common sense. It's based on written acts of parliament. What is written in an act of parliament is what makes something illegal (again, not unlawful, different concept).

 

If it is not specifically proscribed in legislation, and does not fall contrary to the common law (generally the common law is "common sense" stuff about harming others by your actions) then it is not illegal. The VCRA does not forbid anyone from buying parts for a RIF. It doesn't say "if you are buying them to make an entire RIF out of". No matter what the intent was, it's simply not supported by the wording.

 

Again, there is no act that makes it illegal for someone under the age of 18 to purchase such parts.

 

It IS illegal under the VCRA for someone to assemble these parts into a RIF, but then it specifically provides defences against prosecution under these provisions. It does not set an age limit for such a defence to be allowable. The VCRA, where it relates to RIF's, only sets an age limit for BUYING a RIF, not owning one, not being given one and definitely not manufacturing one.

 

I do understand your argument, and I have some sympathy with it, but I don't feel it's supported by the wording of the act.

 

Again, I'm definitely NOT suggesting anyone does this. I am not legally qualified, my knowledge of the law comes from applying it to the use and ownership of various firearms, and plenty of reading on the subject, but I am not qualified to give legal advice.

 

I am not suggesting anyone attempt to circumvent any law, legislation, act of parliament or other legislative instrument in any way. If you choose to do so, and end up in court, I specifically disclaim any involvement in the act. You make a decision based on your own understanding, and I am telling you now it's a bad idea to do it. I don't want anyone coming back and saying "you said it was ok and I got arrested" because I'm NOT saying it's ok. I'm offering my opinion on the legislation as written. Don't come trying to sue me if what I say is a complete load of old tosh (this is more than likely!)

[Deva]

Yes I do see what you are saying, I have understood it isn't specifically written, and I too agree that there is nothing wrong with buying all the parts regardless of what you then do. I'm just trying to go beyond the act and suggest how it might be seen in front of a judge had you assembled a RIF from those parts.

 

If you're right then it would just get thrown out of court. However, I think there would be some concern that the act could be circumvented very easily. If they don't take action, that's the first case in the books re. all this and everyone, left, right and centre will be ordering parts to make their own RIF. Inevitably some of these would sell on to anyone on the 2nd hand market as not everyone does proper checks. More RIF's in peoples hand who shouldn't have them..

 

A good lawyer might be able to wriggle someone out of it due to the complete lack of definitiveness in the act, but I think anyone would know it is "wrong", they'd just be trying to get away with it.

[Zak Da Mack]

It's not worth the risk though. If a lawyer was to wriggle someone out of this from court, then everyone may start doing the same thing. This would cause some backfire and laws could be changed if there was a review of the law covering airsoft guns, making it even more difficult for airsofters to obtain RIF's and possibly even IF's as well. Also, if they think the risks of possible crimes outweigh the benefits of a niche audience, then they might even ban airsoft outright.

[two_zero]

Why do we need this?

 

Legal or not, here's the real question, with airsoft being such fragile hobby.. SHOULD it be legal? Answer is NO, it should not! Don't do it, legal or not.

 

 

 

Going off topic now, but, in my opinion there should also be a legal requirement for retailers to perform a CRB check (or have something like UKARA, that includes it) before selling any RIF/IF to anyone. As a matter in fact, you should probably need a valid defence to buy main airsoft parts, ea. upper / lower receiver.

 

I don't know about you guys, but I'd gladly have a once-a-year CRB check, as well as present my UKARA number to buy parts to prevent airsoft from being banned or used in crimes.

[ScoobySnacks]

two zero, don't even go there!

 

I use and own real steel, and have had to go through all the checks required. There is strong evidence to suggest that gun registration, and making people jump through all the hoops, makes little to no difference to the use of firearms in crime.

 

The use of an IF/RIF in a threatening manner is already a firearms offence, treated the same as using a real firearm to threaten. The steps you suggest would kill the hobby of airsoft as surely as banning RIF's entirely!