T4E marker’s legal

[Euan89]

Ive been charged with 2 x section 5 firearms for owning

1 x walther ppq t4e marker &

1x glock t4e marker 

they say as they are above the 2.5 joule limit for single shot guns they are firearms 

i bought them legally from within the uk in scotland 

 

 

my question is 

 

can someone provide me with the proof that these are legal to be sold in the uk and are legal to own?

 

is there a business owner who can help and may have paperwork?

 

thanks 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Euan89

[Speedbird_666]

26 minutes ago, Euan89 said:

they say as they are above the 2.5 joule limit for single shot guns they are firearms

 

Paintball guns come under Airgun legislation - for a pistol, you cannot exceed 6 ft/lb which equates to 8.13 Joules. I'd be interested to hear what your particular guns were measured at.

 

TBH - You might be better off asking in a dedicated Airgun or Paintball forum.

 

 

[Tackle]

As you've already put landwarriors in the picture, I would recommend you screenshot as much info as you can from their website regarding these models, before they alter or delete & leave you with anything to show you bought legitimately & in good faith. 

Gotta ask, what brought you & your guns to the attention of the plod ? 

[Tommikka]

These are not airsoft pistols but paintball  pistols

 

2.5 joules applies to airsoft guns, which must be designed to fire plastic pellets no larger than 8mm.

The T4Es clearly don’t comply with that

 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57A?view=plain

 

[F157AException for airsoft guns

(1)An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act.

(2)An “airsoft gun” is a barrelled weapon of any description which—

(a)is designed to discharge only a small plastic missile (whether or not it is also capable of discharging any other kind of missile), and

(b)is not capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds the permitted level.

(3)“Small plastic missile” means a missile that—

(a)is made wholly or partly from plastics,

(b)is spherical, and

(c)does not exceed 8 millimetres in diameter.

(4)The permitted kinetic energy level is—

(a)in the case of a weapon which is capable of discharging two or more missiles successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;

(b)in any other case, 2.5 joules.]

 

Before that exemption came in airsoft fines were treated as ‘low power air weapons’ (air guns)

 

 

Paintball guns (including the T4E) remain legal under the Firearms act as ‘low power air weapons, and must be powered below 12 foot pounds (air rifles) or within  6 foot pounds air pistols)

(exceeding those makes it a ‘dangerous air weapon’ and leads to section 5 territory)

(You have pistols so 6 foot pounds would apply which is approx 8 joules)

There is also case law (which established a little over 300fps as the velocity maximum for a paintball gun firing a ‘standard’ 0.68” paintball

 

Paintball has an ‘advantage’ that the Firearms act refers to lethality and the Home Office have (to date) accepted the frangibility of paintballs.

This is also aided by testing a few years back of a ‘new’ type of paintball 

Paintball guns in the UK are legally recognised by the Home Office provided they are used with either paintballs or First strikes (which is a shaped round of a half sphere paintball with a fin)

(And not necessarily tested in the same manner but there are also ‘powder balls’ which would be frangible)

 

Potential problems that you could have against you are the circumstances of how they came to the attention of the police (such as in public) and what you have them loaded with 

Solid balls have been sold in the UK, which are not legal to be fired.  Rubber reballs have been sold for many years and there were also reball centres

If you have any of these other balls then you could be facing problems and would need to rely on treating them as airguns

 

If you live in Scotland then there is an air weapon certificate that’s required.  (A mini licence). This does not / should not apply to paintball guns, but only if using frangible paintballs

 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1969/47/made

 

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2019/07/KNOW-YOUR-LAW-AIR-WEAPONS-2018.pdf

 

The T4Es are legal …… but should be used with paintballs

 

An option to consider is to buy UKPSF membership, but it could be too late to assist you

 

https://ukpsf.com

 

 

 

Get legal advice, and highlight the airweapon and paintball elements 

 

 

You can also pop over to here:

 

https://p8ntballer-forums.com/threads/paintball-and-the-law.171875/

[Euan89]

It was a blank firing gun i tried to buy that had a blocked barrel 

it just so happened it was “fully” blocked, (couldn't shoot anything but was front venting) 

so when they came to speak to me about it (being under the impression i had done nothing wrong) they saw what i had and took EVERYTHING maybe 30-40 diff airsoft/ paintball etc 

 

again they say the power limit is apparently 2.5jl for a single shot

 

 

 

thats why i need proof that these are legal to own and legal to be sold 

 

These were never used in a crime

never brandished in public

 

they were in my bedroom closet 

43 minutes ago, Tackle said:

 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Euan89

[Tommikka]

Flag up the 6 / 12 foot pounds elements 

 

By the way, good use of the word ‘marker’.

The term has no legal standing, but gets used defensively to avoid the gun word

Its origins go back to the use of oil based paint in forestry to ‘mark’

Teenagers try to argue with me about the history of paintball that gun/pistol etc should never be said.  Marker was adopted in the US as a PC term, but originally they were ‘paint marking guns/pistols’ etc - never markers

 

 

But as you have a legal hole at the moment keep your language as ‘paintball markers’,  refer to the firearms act with ‘low power air weapons’ and try to pick out any Home Office pointers in the P8ntballer law thread etc

 

 

[hitmanNo2]

Could you elaborate on how you went from trying to buy a blank firer to "when they came to speak to me about it"?

[Euan89]

3 minutes ago, hitmanNo2 said:

Could you elaborate on how you went from trying to buy a blank firer to "when they came to speak to me about it"?

Flagged up in the post (i think anyway)

[Tackle]

16 minutes ago, Euan89 said:

It was a blank firing gun i tried to buy that had a blocked barrel 

it just so happened it was “fully” blocked, (couldn't shoot anything but was front venting) 

so when they came to speak to me about it (being under the impression i had done nothing wrong) they saw what i had and took EVERYTHING i mean i had LOADS maybe 30-40 diff airsoft/ paintball etc 

they seized it all and tested it all

EVERYTHING else was FINE 

BAR THESE TWO T4E GUNS! 

 

again they say the power limit is apparently 2.5jl for a single shot

 

so ive been slapped with 2 x section 5’s 

 

again everything else was fine

 

thats why i need proof that these are legal to own and legal to be sold 

 

sorry for rambling like a mad man 

 

 

im honestly shocked and have genuinely lost sleep

 

if i can prove you can own these and they CAN be sold within the UK the fiscal will have to drop it

 

but again i need something concrete 

 

thanks again 

 

These were never used in a crime

 

never brandished in public

 

they were in my bedroom closet 

Removed business name in original post

 

I'm guessing your north of the border, I can't claim to know the legal fine print, but @Rogerborgshould be along shortly to enlighten us & hopefully shed a sympathetic insight in to your options.

Although ultimately, if purchased in the UK from a reputable retailer, I would plead ignorance to the possibility of you even considering they could have exceeded legal limits, & the blame must surely rest with the retailer ? 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Euan89 said:

 

[Emergencychimps]

 

This looks relevant for the conversation. I am not a legal expert by any means. 

 

Good luck and hopefully the over zealous coppers don't pursue it too far, they are already very keen to crack down on all forms of legal firearms ownership. 

 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

but @Rogerborgshould be along shortly to enlighten u

 

I had a quick word with him and he said "Speak to a real live solicitor, now". Well, maybe tomorrow.

 

@Tommikkahas covered everything I know and more: and paintballers are likely to be more helpful here.

 

Personally, I can't see how they'd be Section 5s rather than air guns (which as m'lurned colleague has said need a licence in Scotland).  Either way, this has got nothing to do with airsoft, and the 2.5J limit. But we've seen examples of Plod mis-charging when they see something vaguely assault-toy related, including changing the charges later when they realise that they've screwed up. Because of course, they were never wrong to swoop and seize, they just need to figure out what you're guilty of.

 

Wild guess, but did they happen to find some rubber balls with the T4Es?

[hitmanNo2]

2 hours ago, Euan89 said:

Flagged up in the post (i think anyway)

What I meant was why are the police coming to your house when you've tried to buy a blank firer?

 

If I buy a blank firer, I go to a shop/have it delivered.  None of the police's business.

[Cannonfodder]

Call me cynical but I smell bullshit, or we're not getting the full story

[Speedbird_666]

2 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

Call me cynical but I smell bullshit, or we're not getting the full story

 

I have a similar inkling.

[Guest]

I’m under the impression, as is His Majesty’s Government, that a a blank firer that vents anything at all through the front is not a legal blank firer.

[Rogerborg]

I saw a post in Failbook a couple of months back from someone claiming to be a Parcel Farce employee saying that they were going to start cracking down on anything vaguely gun shaped, up to and including refusing to carry "low powered air weapons", i.e. airsoft, within the UK.  They didn't mention blank firers or other replicas as far as I can recall.

 

Caveated with it being pure anecdote, unverified, and it doesn't match their published T&Cs. But it is possible that they're now accepting things at the counter which are then triggering alarms when they're in the network.

[Rogerborg]

On 27/04/2023 at 09:32, rocketdogbert said:

I’m under the impression, as is His Majesty’s Government, that a a blank firer that vents anything at all through the front is not a legal blank firer.

 

On a strict reading, it looks like can vent gases to the front, as long as the barrel is fully blocked.  If the barrel isn't blocked, it has to vent upwards. Or, curiously, be a revolver, which appears to be just fine to Alec Baldwin someone with.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1754/regulation/3/made

 

Specifications for imitation firearms

3.—(1) Blank-firing imitation firearms, other than those described in paragraph (2), shall conform to the specifications set out in regulation 4.

(2) The blank-firing imitation firearms described in this paragraph are—

(a) imitation revolvers; and

(b) imitation firearms where the blank cartridges are loaded vertically at 90 degrees to the dummy barrel and which fire, and vent the gases produced on discharge, in the same direction.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1754/regulation/4/made

 

Specifications for imitation firearms

4.  The specifications referred to in regulation 3(1) are that—

(a) an imitation firearm must incorporate an inclusion;

(b) the inclusion must be wholly made of a material which is at least as resistant to being cut, drilled, bored, ground (or any similar process) as sintered tungsten carbide in the range 1550-2000 HV 30(1);

(c) the inclusion must wholly block the barrel and should be permanent and incapable of being knocked out without destroying the chamber or barrel;

(d) part of the inclusion must be incorporated into the rear of the dummy barrel; and

(e) the inclusion must be intended to prevent—

(i) the creation of a hole through the dummy barrel along its axis; and

(ii) the removal of a dummy barrel, unless the frame and chamber area of the firearm is rendered useless as a result or its integrity so compromised that it cannot be used to form the basis of a firearm without significant repair or addition.

 

None of which is really relevant to the "Section 5" seizures of those spicy bois, or to airsoft.  If I were a betting borg, I'd lay a small amount on an accumulator that they were: found by the bedside; loaded with rubber balls; and something about "legal home defence" was mumbled.  Disavow, disavow.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

wholly block the barrel

We’ll leave it to the lawyers, but wholly block is to block entirely, not just to prevent projectiles exiting.

[Rogerborg]

18 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

We’ll leave it to the lawyers, but wholly block is to block entirely, not just to prevent projectiles exiting.

 

Do we know if there's case law on that?  A quick search on BAILII didn't turn up anything, although annoyingly it "helpfully" returns result for "inclusive" when you ask for "inclusion".  All of the relevant cases seem to be about blank firers that have been deliberately modified, I can't see anything about one that incidentally vents some gas forwards - although it's entirely possible that no such case has ever reached a court of record.

 

I'm not doubting that's the interpretation being applied by police and prosecution services, I hasten to add, just wondering if it's ever been robustly defended and tested.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Do we know if there's case law on that?  A quick search on BAILII didn't turn up anything, although annoyingly it "helpfully" returns result for "inclusive" when you ask for "inclusion".  All of the relevant cases seem to be about blank firers that have been deliberately modified, I can't see anything about one that incidentally vents some gas forwards - although it's entirely possible that no such case has ever reached a court of record.

 

I'm not doubting that's the interpretation being applied by police and prosecution services, I hasten to add, just wondering if it's ever been robustly defended and tested.

Not heard of any case law around it, only that’s the interpretation generally accepted, be interesting if/when it comes to court 👍🏻

[Tommikka]

On blank firers, my understanding has been that UK legal blank venting cannot go forwards and I would expect vertical venting etc 

 

But that’s off the top of my head without checking definitions or any cases, and circumstances could of course differ between manufacturing to UK blank specification, designed / manufacturered to overseas blank specifications subsequently modified for UK and modification of former firearms 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Tommikka

[Cannonfodder]

19 hours ago, Tommikka said:

modification of former firearms 

I thought deactivated firearms have to have the internal parts welded so they can't cycle 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

I thought deactivated firearms have to have the internal parts welded so they can't cycle 

Deacts aren’t the same as section5’s modified to fire blanks

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

I thought deactivated firearms have to have the internal parts welded so they can't cycle 

By ‘former firearm’ I don’t mean a deactivated firearm, but converting a firearm to blank