New Sniper looking for advice

[Dec7]

Alright lads, me and some mates have been getting into airsoft over the last year and a half, id still say we're pretty green but i'm deep enough to know that i enjoy it and i'm probably going to be doing it for the foreseeable future.

 

I've always fancied sniping and i've been looking at where to start, i'm very much a sort of "in with two feet" kinda guy, i like to get stuck right into the deep end, i want a good solid rifle that does the job. Like i said i am rather green but the guys at the last site i was at told me "FPS is king" when i asked them about it, so i've done a wee bit of research and these are the three ive been looking at. (Please let me know if im going about this in completely the wrong way) 

 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/evolution-airsoft-covert-ops-m40-sniper-bundle 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/well-mb03a-sniper-rifle

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/well-mb-08a-warrior-i-fluted-barrel-w-folding-stock

 

So the first one is ideal, i love how it looks, it comes with a bunch of kit and it to me seems like excellent value, the only thing is it has pretty low FPS, coming in a 330, im told this particular gun is a really good starting point as its super easy to upgrade etc so i guess i could up the FPS  but again as a total noob id be worried id mess it all up! This however is my favorite.

 

This next one seems like the sensible option but it just doesn't get me going the way the first one does, there's something about it, that said it is crazy cheap and is coming in at 401 FPS which seems pretty great and aesthetics ain't all that important as i plan to customise the look a fair bit anyway with sprays and meshes etc 

 

The last one is sort of at the top top end of my budget, baring in mind id need to get a scope etc for it, crazy high fps at 470, again i don't love it as much as the first one but i still think it looks stunning!!! The big turn off is that its double the price with no extras. Don't get me wrong, im no fool, i know this aint a cheap "hobby" so the price ain't that much of a turn off, but in the back of my head i'm sort of like, would it be cheaper/better to just get the first one and then upgrade it? But again going back to the noob thing i have no idea!!

 

Any help would be much appreciated lads, i've been deliberating over this for about 3-4 months and could use any help or advice!  

 

Cheers! 

 

[Rogerborg]

45 minutes ago, Dec7 said:

"FPS is king"

 

Are you sitting comfortably?

 

Getting your muzzle energy up close to your site limits (typically 2.32J) is a stretch goal.  I say "muzzle energy" rather than fps because you'll need to be clear on how your local site(s) do chrono. Sites that actually care will think and talk in Joules, and chrono using the BBs that you intend to use, which for a sniper should be over 0.4g.  Some sites are still living in the 1990s and will chrono even snipers with 0.2g, and talk in terms of "500fps" for snipers, which is problematic for you if you're intending to play at multiple sites because 2.32J with 0.2g ("500fps") can easily creep well over that when you throw in 0.4g BBs. I use 0.43g, other snipers as high as 0.5g.

 

And every sniper, I think without exception, will need a spring change to get the energy up there, so the quoted stock "fps" (quoted for 0.2g BBs that you won't be using) is essentially irrelevant.

 

tl;dr version - budget another £10 or so for a spring change, but don't sweat it too much as long as you get over 2J, but under your site limit, with 0.4g or heavier BBs

 

What's far more important for sniping is shot-to-shot consistency - maximum range won't matter if you're slinging your balls all over the place.  That comes down mostly to decent air seal, hop unit and rubber, and using the heaviest BBs that your hop and wallet can handle.

 

I like cheap AEGs and pistols, like, sub £100 plastic fantastics.  Snipers though, you can have a great day smacking in hit after hit after hit, or you can have a rotten day with miss after miss after miss, and there's not much in between.

 

I have a Well MB-03 which I bought to see if I enjoyed the experience of sniping.  As stock, it was just barely usable, giving only marginally more maximum range than an AEG and in practice less effective range given the inconsistency out at 40m+ where you need a sniper to be more accurate.  I threw the usual upgrades at it: spring and piston, barrel, barrel spacers, metal hop arm, DIY TDC hop.  It got a little better, then it got a lot worse as the cheap internals started wearing out rapidly. The trigger got reluctant to release, and then the stopper went sloppy which ruins the bolt pull and eventually prevented the bolt even going forwards.  It's currently in bits, and was ultimately a waste of money other than for learning the hard way that if you start with a cheap sniper, you really will end up replacing just about everything inside it in order to get to YouTube video standards.

 

Contrast with my Silverback Tac-41.  That costs £365, and still needs a spring change to get it up over 2J.  But that's all it needs.  The larger volume cylinder gives a light, short bolt pull. It has a superb indexed rotary TDC hop giving it great shot-to-shot consistency.  The trigger is 90-degree (you want that), fully adjustable, and the quality of the internals is far better than on the Well.  Even the bolt disassembly is a dream compared to VSR compatible guns.  The difference in play against the Well even at its peak performance is startling: it's bang on target again and again and again, and much less fatiguing to use.  It plays how sniping looks when you see it on YouTube.

 

So you'll have to make a choice about how much you want to commit to sniping.  If you're just dipping a toe in, I'd say: get the MB03 (or even the £50 Double Eagle M52), and run it absolutely as stock without spending another penny.  You could even cut the spring down a bit to have a lighter bolt pull and less stress on the components, get it under 1.14J, and run it without a minimum engagement distance with any sight you like - we have a few folk here who do that, and say it's great fun.

 

Then if you enjoy the experience of sniping - placing yourself correctly and picking your shots - you can think about whether to go in deep, either by retiring your taster gun, starting to update the internals on the Well (the Double Eagle is essentially disposable), or by jumping straight to a Silverback Tac-41 or SRS, a Novritsch SSG-10, or one of the other (very few) credible out-of-the-box options like the Steyr Scout. The other route is to let some other mug sink the money, and buy a used pre-upgraded gun. In that case I'd say it's vital to actually test it yourself at 60m+ ranges rather than trusting to a parts list or "Shoots like a laser" claims.

 

Aaaaand breathe.

 

I know this isn't the answer you want.  We all wish there was a £100 sniper that shoots accurately at 80m and doesn't eat its internals, but I honestly don't think it exists.  You can get started on a budget though, just don't expect great results, or longevity.

[RostokMcSpoons]

That was a good read @Rogerborg and as someone who buys guns impulsively that DE M52 would certainly tickle my fancy.  Thanks for highlighting it!

 

[Impulse]

@Rogerborg already hit many nails on the head there. Sniping is one of those things where it's either amazing and you feel like a god, or you barely do anything all day. I've had days where I've single-handedly, or as a pair, held an objective against basically the entire enemy team, but I've also had days where I can count the number of shots I've fired with my fingers and not have to resort to using my toes. Depending on what you're looking for, that can be enjoyable too, though it takes a certain mindset to find sitting/lying totally still in an uncomfortable position for a few hours, not pulling the trigger at all and just relaying the enemy team's movements to your friends via radio anywhere near fun. Not saying "don't do it", just saying it's a very different experience. When I started getting into sniping properly around 14 years ago I knew a pair of German guys at my local site in the south of Spain who said "it's not about how many you hit, but how you hit them" and in all these years I haven't heard anyone sum up sniping as well in as few words. I feel it encapsulates sniping perfectly; you won't get as many hits as your friend running around with an AEG, but each hit you do get will feel way more satisfying.

 

I can tell you that the Evolution M40 is marketed as "VSR compatible" but in truth it's "mostly VSR compatible"; there are slight variances in how it's built where VSR parts won't all necessarily fit into it, like the Action Army hop unit which is usually a staple in my builds, though I believe there are alternatives like the Maple Leaf unit or arm, but don't quote me on that as I haven't tried it myself. It's possible to do a good build with one, but it'll require a bit of trial and error. If it were me and I had to choose between those three, I'd choose the Evolution M40 or the Well MB-03 (as they're the two "VSR compatible" ones, though the MB-03 has some inconsistencies too I believe), swap out the barrel, hop rubber, hop up nub and hop up chamber/hop arm and just run it at the stock power with the heaviest BBs it can lift. Running a bolt action at 1.14J is pretty enjoyable and can be really effective when tuned correctly, though be prepared for people to get salty and say "that's a bit close for a sniper!" and "you have a 30m MED!!" when you shoot them up close.

 

Also, whoever told you that FPS is king has clearly never sniped before, or they're just not very good at it. Hop up is king; fps makes very little difference. For example, I have two pretty comprehensive HPA sniper rifle builds that I've built up over the years and consider my best performing rifles. One is a VSR that fires at .48s at 2.3J and has an effective range of 75m. I can hit out to 85m relatively consistently but at that point I'm angling my shots slightly and it's not hitting the target every time. The other is a semi-auto m21 build that fires .4s at 1.1J and has an effective range of 65m, though I can hit 70m angling shots it's not anywhere near accurate as the BBs just don't have enough energy left at that point. As you can see from this example, that extra 1.2J of power is giving me an extra 10m of effective range at the trade off of a 30m MED. Yes, more "fps" is giving me more range, but the amount of times you notice those 10m is rare I find, and usually you can just let them come a bit closer anyway as if you're remaining still at 75m range, they're not spotting you unless you're standing in the open. On this, I will echo what was said already; you want to chase consistency, not max range. Ignore the people who saunter about, boasting that their sniper rifle has a range of 90m+. You want to tune it so that you're hitting the target every single time. If you can't hit that target every shot (well, 9/10 times because BBs can sometimes get caught in Mother Nature's loving embrace and carried away by a slight breeze) then it's not worth considering in my opinion.

 

I have a number of VSR-based cheapo builds, but chasing the 2.3J limit is never a cheap option. They're often either 1.1J builds or they're whatever the stock power of the base rifle is. If you want to increase the power, either you shell out for internals that can handle the higher power spring without exploding, or you shell out for an HPA engine, line, tank and regulator; both are expensive, both have their ups and downs. I prefer HPA and gas for the effortless bolt pull and quieter shooting, but most prefer spring as it's consistent, doesn't require a tank and will perform exactly the same all year round.

 

50 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Getting your muzzle energy up close to your site limits (typically 2.32J) is a stretch goal.  I say "muzzle energy" rather than fps because you'll need to be clear on how your local site(s) do chrono. Sites that actually care will think and talk in Joules, and chrono using the BBs that you intend to use, which for a sniper should be over 0.4g.  Some sites are still living in the 1990s and will chrono even snipers with 0.2g, and talk in terms of "500fps" for snipers, which is problematic for you if you're intending to play at multiple sites because 2.32J with 0.2g ("500fps") can easily creep well over that when you throw in 0.4g BBs. I use 0.43g, other snipers as high as 0.5g.

 

This. My KJ m700s can chrono at under 350fps on a .2 (I think I got it down to around 0.9J), but then I put .48s in them and they are suddenly 2.7J. Gas guns creep like crazy

Edited May 27, 2022 by Impulse

[Shamal]

57 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Are you sitting comfortably?

 

'Let Merlin cast his spell'.....for ten points name the group....

 

Sorry to butt in lol.

 

Regards

 

 

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Shamal said:

'Let Merlin cast his spell'.....for ten points name the group....

 

Jethro Tull. (Wrong answers only)

 

OP right now.

 

[Dec7]

@Impulse @Rogerborg lads, thank you for going above and beyond! Genuinely 10/10 guys! Massively appreciate you taking the time to help me out!

 

You have given me a lot to think about, I'm going to sleep on it but as of right now I'm thinking I could go with that M40 bundle, purely because, its cheap and if I either don't enjoy the sniping or I end up wearing it down then its no biggy, it'll give me a taste, and if after that I end up really loving it then I can commit to something like the "Steyr Scout" Rogerborg mentioned! Plus the scope and the bipod it comes with I could reuse on another gun at some point down the line once the M40 has either died out or been retired which is a bonus! That said I actually just added it up, I could get the Well MB-03 with the same scope and bipod for pretty much the same price so.......yeah, will sleep on it!

 

7 hours ago, Impulse said:

swap out the barrel, hop rubber, hop up nub and hop up chamber/hop arm and just run it at the stock power with the heaviest BBs it can lift.

 

Also Impuse, am keen to do this as I feel even if the guns only a wee bit "upgraded" it'll give me a better experience but again I'm a complete green noob, any chance you could give me some pointers or recommend what bits to buy etc? Like I've said though you've both already went completely above and beyond so just tell me to bugger off if I'm being too much of a pain!

 

The last thing I was going to mention was suppressors, obviously, very cool and aesthetically pleasing but should I be looking at one at this stage? Would a wee cheap one be worth it or would I hurt the guns performance?

Edited May 27, 2022 by Dec7

[Impulse]

5 hours ago, Dec7 said:

@Impulse @Rogerborg lads, thank you for going above and beyond! Genuinely 10/10 guys! Massively appreciate you taking the time to help me out!

 

You have given me a lot to think about, I'm going to sleep on it but as of right now I'm thinking I could go with that M40 bundle, purely because, its cheap and if I either don't enjoy the sniping or I end up wearing it down then its no biggy, it'll give me a taste, and if after that I end up really loving it then I can commit to something like the "Steyr Scout" Rogerborg mentioned! Plus the scope and the bipod it comes with I could reuse on another gun at some point down the line once the M40 has either died out or been retired which is a bonus! That said I actually just added it up, I could get the Well MB-03 with the same scope and bipod for pretty much the same price so.......yeah, will sleep on it!

 

 

Also Impuse, am keen to do this as I feel even if the guns only a wee bit "upgraded" it'll give me a better experience but again I'm a complete green noob, any chance you could give me some pointers or recommend what bits to buy etc? Like I've said though you've both already went completely above and beyond so just tell me to bugger off if I'm being too much of a pain!

 

The last thing I was going to mention was suppressors, obviously, very cool and aesthetically pleasing but should I be looking at one at this stage? Would a wee cheap one be worth it or would I hurt the guns performance?

 

Good idea. Both will work as a starting base, though if you're looking at getting a VSR like the MB-03, I'd suggest looking at the JG BAR10 and the Cyma CM.701 rifles as well; they're cheap and more compatible with VSR parts. You can start relatively cheap, still get pretty good performance and see if the gameplay interests you, then decide to shell out hundreds more. I was going to do a build for the Evolution M40 myself, but now I'm going to use one of my KJ m700s as a base for an M40A3 instead as I like my gas guns. My recommendation for parts would be:

- Maple Leaf silicone autobot hop rubber (probably 70 degrees as that'll work for 1.1J as well as 2.3J),

- If you go for the M40, one of the Maple Leaf VSR hop arms. I believe there are two and I believe they will fit onto the hop unit but can't be certain.

- If you go for a VSR (MB-03, BAR-10 or CM.701), I'd get the Action Army VSR hop unit. It's fantastic.

- Maple Leaf omega nub

- Either a Laylax or Maple Leaf Crazy Jet inner barrel. Yes, the stock barrel is 6.03mm, but it's brass and it's bridged. You want an unbridged barrel and I am a big fan of stainless steel barrels (had the same Laylax barrel in my VSR for about 12 years now). I can't remember what length you want, but I know the stock inner is slightly longer than a 430mm VSR barrel so you could use a 430mm with barrel spacers to make sure it's nice and centred.

 

In terms of mounting a suppressor, I'm not sure what I'd use for the adapter. You may be able to use a VSR thread adapter, but I can't confirm that as I can't remember exactly what the end cap is like. When it comes to actual suppressors, you want a decent foam filled one. I've got the Action Army DDM silencer which is meant for the AAP-01, but it works great on anything. Well, anything suppressors are good with; they're utterly useless for AEGs and GBBs (outside of cool factor), god-tier for NBB gas and HPA and somewhat useful for springers. It'll make a difference in reducing the noise that comes out of the end of the barrel when the air and BB escape, but it won't do anything to quieten the sound of the piston slamming forward in the cylinder. In 1.1J builds it's not really needed as they're quiet enough and the Evolution M40 is pretty quiet out of the box. A suppressor won't hurt the gun's performance outside of making it longer and a bit more unwieldy.

[Hudson]

Have a look at the Action Army T11 too, if you're intetested in sniping.

 

It's a VSR base, so upgrades are plentiful, but with a fresh modernised look.

It also comes with a 90º trigger as standard, so you'll save a lot of money when you come to upgrade.

 

It comes in low powered as standard, but a new spring & piston will help with that.

 

https://airsoftdirect.uk.com/action-army-aac-t11-airsoft-sniper-rifle/

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Hudson said:

It also comes with a 90º trigger as standard, so you'll save a lot of money when you come to upgrade.

 

QFT.  A new VSR 90 degree trigger box cost £100 just by itself.  I thought I could get away with the stock Well box for a while, but the stopper wallered out really quickly with a 2.3J spring, as well as the trigger mechanism itself getting very shonky.  While I'm generally a fan of buying cheap and twice, it's seems like a poor route to take with snipers.

 

I did seriously consider the AAC T11 as a base for building a decent sniper, but went another way...

 

 

3 hours ago, Impulse said:

[Evolution M40 parts list]

 

All perfectly sensible, as are the base gun suggestions. But that's £100-£120 or so for those parts, then another £100 for a 90 degree trigger box, and now you're looking at SSG-10 money, shading towards Tac-41, plus the time and fiddling to put it all together.

 

Meanwhile, I changed the Tac-41 spring (in minutes), dialled the hop in, and just played without any issues, literally laughing out loud at how well it performed.

 

I like tinkering with guns, but it's getting tougher to recommend upgrading snipers given that you'll end up replacing very nearly everything internally chasing that last few metres of range or cm of accuracy, and likely end up paying as much or more as buying one of the viable out-of-the-box options now.

 

What I don't want to do is to put @Dec7 off trying sniping by bumping the "must haves" price up.  You can start off with something cheap to see if you enjoy the play style, and consider that a DE M52 costs half the price of a VSR 90 degree trigger box alone.

 

Given my bad experience with the MB-03 trigger box, I'd stick with recommending.

 

• A £50 M52 and consider it as completely disposable, just for the experience.
• JG BAR-10 or CYMA CM.701 (the CYMA is £10 more but claims close to 2.3J out of the box, making it a wash) for the cheapest fully VSR compatible upgrade bases.
• Action Army T11 because of that trigger box (but you really will have to upgrade the spring and ideally the guide as it's startlingly low powered as stock)

(What I really want to say is "Skip all that, go straight to Tac-41" but at £380 to field it, you have to be sure that it's something that you'll enjoy using)

 

I'd consider both suppressors and bipods as completely unnecessary for any of the above, and just adding weight.  I'll occasionally throw a bipod on because, well, I have a bipod, but it generally comes off again by lunchtime.  

[Impulse]

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

All perfectly sensible, as are the base gun suggestions. But that's £100-£120 or so for those parts, then another £100 for a 90 degree trigger box, and now you're looking at SSG-10 money, shading towards Tac-41, plus the time and fiddling to put it all together.

 

Meanwhile, I changed the Tac-41 spring (in minutes), dialled the hop in, and just played without any issues, literally laughing out loud at how well it performed.

 

I like tinkering with guns, but it's getting tougher to recommend upgrading snipers given that you'll end up replacing very nearly everything internally chasing that last few metres of range or cm of accuracy, and likely end up paying as much or more as buying one of the viable out-of-the-box options now.

 

Yeah, hence I don't recommend getting a new trigger box until you want to increase the power because they're pricey. I'm of the opinion that you run the Cyma or JG at the stock power until the sears explode, then swap it out

 

Without a new trigger box, you can probably do the build for around £250 all in and run it until it dies. Then, if you like the playstyle, shell out for a Springer Custom Works S-trigger because they're the best damn triggers on the market, as well as the rest of the upgrades. I run a Springer Custom Works S-trigger, piston and spring guide in my spring build, even though it's only a 1.1J build because it was a 2.3J build at one point in time and I've never had any issues with it over years of use. For those, plus a new spring you'd probably be looking at around another £200, then if you want a teflon cylinder and a better cylinder head that's another £100 or so. It can get expensive fast!

 

There are some very decent out of the box snipers, like the tac-41, SRS, Novritsch stuff etc, but in my opinion they just don't quite hit the same high level performance at the top end. Yes, they're a lot cheaper and they perform comparably for far less money, though it depends on if you think that consistency/range is worth the hundreds of £s extra and time investment that a custom build will cost. We come from opposite ends of the spectrum on that, as you're "buy cheap, buy twice" and I'm "buy once, cry once" and will spend months building a project to perfection, including pistols. Including trial and error costs, you don't want to know how much my HPA m21 build cost me over the years... 🤣