Milsim Training

[Wolf20142]

Hi guys. I was just looking to see how many of the milsim crowd, or other airsofters, would be interested in tactical training from ex SF personnel 

[Shamal]

2 minutes ago, Wolf20142 said:

Hi guys. I was just looking to see how many of the milsim crowd, or other airsofters, would be interested in tactical training from ex SF personnel 

Hi @Wolf20142 I, for one,am too old in the tooth to be shouted at and taught new tricks.i have developed my own tactics over the years."LOOK OUT THERE'S A MONSTER BEHIND YOU!" Works now and again. Not often though. Tend to scare myself more... "WHERE?"

Phew...its gone.🤒

Great idea on your part and I hope you get a good few hits.👍

Regards 

 

[Chev Chelios]

Tactics don't really convert well. What Airsoft is good for is moving with kit (most ranges will not let you move let alone run) and a bit of FISH is good for  force on force but have found it teaches bad habits like holding doors closed, using soft stuff as cover ETC. 

 

If its a class taught with real firearms in mind and using Airsoft because of our draconian laws then price permitting defiantly. 

[Wolf20142]

2 minutes ago, Chev Chelios said:

Tactics don't really convert well. What Airsoft is good for is moving with kit (most ranges will not let you move let alone run) and a bit of FISH is good for  force on force but have found it teaches bad habits like holding doors closed, using soft stuff as cover ETC. 

 

If its a class taught with real firearms in mind and using Airsoft because of our draconian laws then price permitting defiantly. 

Thanks for the reply, what would you personally consider a reasonable price for a day of training?

[Shamal]

28 minutes ago, Wolf20142 said:

Thanks for the reply, what would you personally consider a reasonable price for a day of training?

I would think £30-£40. Working on say ten students. That would allow rental of location(provided you can find somewhere)and refreshments.

Might be talking rubbish but that's about the most I would pay🤔🤔

Regards 

31 minutes ago, Chev Chelios said:

Tactics don't really convert well. What Airsoft is good for is moving with kit (most ranges will not let you move let alone run) and a bit of FISH is good for  force on force but have found it teaches bad habits like holding doors closed, using soft stuff as cover ETC. 

 

If its a class taught with real firearms in mind and using Airsoft because of our draconian laws then price permitting defiantly

Definitely even 😉👍

Edited January 21, 2021 by Shamal
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[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

16 hours ago, Chev Chelios said:

Tactics don't really convert well. What Airsoft is good for is moving with kit (most ranges will not let you move let alone run) and a bit of FISH is good for  force on force but have found it teaches bad habits like holding doors closed, using soft stuff as cover ETC.

If you're a "doorkicker" irl then yeah I'd agree here - I'm an airsofter though so I couldn't give a shit about soft cover etc - I don't think it really matters that tactics don't convert, RS -> Airsoft, if that makes sense. I would want to train for airsoft, not a proper fight.

 

But yeah, agreed with Shamal - For some context @Wolf20142 if you're not aware, Airsoft skirmishes have a walk-on fee from around £20-£50, for a day's play, depending on loads of factors - location, events, lunch included etc... So that's the rough range I think you'd need to target normal Airsofters.

 

Milsims normally cost at least £80+ from my experience, definitely over £100 for a weekend's play.

[Tommikka]

17 hours ago, Wolf20142 said:

Hi guys. I was just looking to see how many of the milsim crowd, or other airsofters, would be interested in tactical training from ex SF personnel 

There is a market for ‘experience’ days

Not directed at airsofters, paintballers, milsim etc but directed at people - and airsofters, paintallers, midsummers, gamers and stag/hens can enjoy it 

 

As training to be better at playing it does help a bit, but the situations and consequences are different 

A context can be put against the tactics 

 

We have taken part in similar ‘tactical training’ and we have also delivered it

At some events there have been commercial trainers with ex services giving training.

They did of course tone it down to be suitable to paying customers, but gave a context:

eg The urban battlefield - first decide if their are friendlies and/or civilian bystanders.  If not or you don’t prioritise them then the answer is not to kick down doors.  Smash the place and overrun.  Stalingrad style, but without getting bogged down as by destroying buildings the Germans made a 3D environment for the Russians

 

Once you have decided that you cannot smash the place you tie yourself into building to building door to door - very dangerous and the defenders have the advantage, you have to go in with aggression and high risk of casualties.  Next question - are their friendlies? Eg civilian population or hostage rescue.  If no, then throw a grenade and mop up, if yes then have a high level of attrition going in hard but having to identify every target 

 

We did sessions on both - shoot everything on sight & identify first 

 

Now the context of consequences:

If its an experience then you can go for ‘realistic’ -ish scenarios.

Kick the door down, oh dear half of you are dead, you killed the hostage you were meant to rescue, let’s try again etc

 

If it’s for skills training, then identify the different consequences of real life door kicking and gameplay door kicking 

Some Milsims will verge towards simulating the real life, but most players are dressing up for it but just playing 

The ultimate consequence in real life is death, in gameplay the consequence is respawn

 

When door kicking you want speed, surprise, aggression etc to override the defenders advantage - and you don’t want to die

In a game they know you are coming, the only limited surprise is that Fred wasn’t expecting you at that moment

In a game the worst that happens from ‘dieing’ is a long walk, the chances are there is some form or respawn in situ or nearby, so you can happily let the first two in the door die

 

One of our guys is an ex instructor, so he brought in his knowledge.  He didn’t look at the situation and pull

out a tactic.  He’s look at the situation, rethink the context and adjust a tactic 

When we’ve given training sessions they would all begin with the scenario - what’s the situation, context, risks ‘ consequences - and who are you up against - random players, trained soldiers, hardened guerillas etc

 

 

[Cr0-Magnon]

As @Tommikka has touched upon and correct me if I'm wrong but surely in real life scenarios you want to avoid being shot at all costs, where as often in airsoft you just want to complete the objective as quickly as possible. Obviously some airsofters may still be in to the former, I saw a player who was also a police officer hang right at the back for the entire day, no-where near where the action. I guess they managed to avoid being killed or at least killed too much but in terms of completing objectives, you sometimes just need to charge forward and hope enough of you survive to start breaching villages etc.

[DRay]

I think this is being looked at too deeply and there is definitely value to it in two streams;

 

high(er) level field craft; why things are seen, L and flat ambush tactics, pepper pot advance etc. 
 

door kicking; single/two man room clearances, stairwell clearances, closed door room breaches etc. 
 

Having been taught CQB (or SPF as we call it) at work by RM, practicing coordinated movement and aggressive action is invaluable and would absolutely transfer to airsoft. 
In the case of the former, I don’t think I have ever seen a well co-ordinated section attack or two axis ambush executed well on an airsoft site. The key to achieving both of those is communication which can absolutely be taught. 
 

it depends what the experience of your man is, but I would pay £50 for a day of drilling CQB and door kicking. Maybe offer a group discount for your 4 man squad? 

[SSPKali]

ITAS have run some level 1 and 2 days for CQB, adapting "real" tactics for use in airsoft as they don't all translate. I went on the Lv1 day with 2 others from the team and we had two trainers between 6 of us, one ex-RM who airsofts quite a bit, and an ex(?) SF guy.

 

Really high quality training and ran from about 10am to 5pm including a final "kill house" exercise. Cost was twice a regular walk-on fee but worth every penny due to the high quality of the teaching (talk through, demonstrate, walk through then try a few times with immediate feedback)

[padraigthesniper]

On 21/01/2021 at 19:04, Wolf20142 said:

Hi guys. I was just looking to see how many of the milsim crowd, or other airsofters, would be interested in tactical training from ex SF personnel 

I'd be interested the main parts that would help in airsoft would be CQB tactics and anything that helps with staying unspotted on the way to objective. Theres deffo a market for it, but make sure you seperate the real tactics that work on a battlefield and the real tactics that work on the airsoft field. Most airsofters are interested in military knowledge even if its not applicable for skirmishing, but the cqb tactics deffo would be good for most people. How to use cover and shoot from cover could also be handy and grenade throwing is something that could help.

[Shamal]

1 hour ago, padraigthesniper said:

I'd be interested the main parts that would help in airsoft would be CQB tactics and anything that helps with staying unspotted on the way to objective. Theres deffo a market for it, but make sure you seperate the real tactics that work on a battlefield and the real tactics that work on the airsoft field. Most airsofters are interested in military knowledge even if its not applicable for skirmishing, but the cqb tactics deffo would be good for most people. How to use cover and shoot from cover could also be handy and grenade throwing is something that could help.

Yeah and how to thrown mk5's into a room without the feckin thing hitting the door frame,bouncing out and killing six of your team stacked up in corridor amid cries of 'wanker', 'muppet',' fuck sake mate'. Oh how we laughed......well I did 🤭

💣💥

Regards 

[AlphaBear]

Way back years ago, Sterling Airsoft used to offer such 'event's where they would teach special tactics. I've just checked their website and they are still around but obviously shut coz of Covid. No idea what the prices were back then but it's got to be circa £50+ per person depending upon numbers... I mean it's not gonna be cheap lets face it... time is money and time is valuable.

 

The key to any good tactical play is team work and communication. I have often seen small squads all kitted up and constantly in comms with each other, but they are mostly the minority and then I see them working with themselves and not with any other groups. They moved well, they moved with purpose and they looked as though they knew what they were doing, so you wanted to tag along to stay alive and learn something...

 

However, Airsoft for many is pure fun and having a laugh and getting away from the kids and the wife... and many would probably not give two hoots about tactics etc... It would be nice to learn some basic tactics and suddenly become a Seal Team 6 operative for a few hrs... I'd jump at the chance and I'm sure many others would too.. but it only works if there is a squad of you else it's not gonna be fun will it? And also, it's airsoft, the only important thing is capturing that flag so charge in with both barrels. If you get shot.... shit happens... go to regen and start agian... and again and again... (unless you only have 2 lives  )

[gunbod007]

I would be interested in it as long as everyone is still aware it's just airsoft yano. Would feel silly to take it very very seriously but of course if there are left tactics you can transfer that would be cool.

Don't Spartan Airsoft have a training thing for AFO Police?

[AlphaBear]

There was this squad of 6 known collectively as the rangers... well that's what we called them. They were all kitted out in the same team gear, with jar-head haircuts, full comms and so on... they even had team tattoos!!!  They basically kept themselves to themselves..... with the odd small chit chat to anyone who dare speak to them. But the fact of the matter was tactically they worked so well together and dare I say it we were kinda wanting to be on their side.... it was obvious they had had group training and they knew their stuff... 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Sounds like a good idea.  Teaching basics like good communication, team work, moving as an actual team. 

 

I am ex-SAS and even I would have a go at this.  Not that I'm boasting mind, they let anyone into Suffolk Agricultural Services these days.