Bucking - What's the Deal?

[Old Guy]

In all the research (that's pronounced risearch not re- search) I have yet to discover why bucking rubbers come in so many different angle settings. Maple Lea seem to be well regarded and prefer 50 degree nubs(?) while other makers use everything between 40 and 70, as far as I remember. Why the different settings? Then there are the soft and hard rubbers; again why?

Thanks for all information offered.

[Zarrin]

1 hour ago, Old Guy said:

In all the research (that's pronounced risearch not re- search) I have yet to discover why bucking rubbers come in so many different angle settings. Maple Lea seem to be well regarded and prefer 50 degree nubs(?) while other makers use everything between 40 and 70, as far as I remember. Why the different settings? Then there are the soft and hard rubbers; again why?

Thanks for all information offered.

 

It's actually less complicated than that... it's all down to the softness rating - i'm not sure why it's labeled in degrees; there is no physical angle to consider.

 

The lower the degrees rating, the softer the rubber, you would choose your rating based on the approximate power output of your gun.

 

- 50 degree: 280-360 FPS
- 60 degree: 295-390 FPS
- 70 degree: 360-460 FPS
- 75 degree: 425-490 FPS
- 80 degree: 490 FPS +

 

these are the maple leaf ratings but they are pretty universal tbh.

 

 

[Stratton Oakmont]

Shore rating is in degrees 

degree used in a rating not an angle 

like temperature, or the degree  of difficulty etc

[E21A]

Google Durometer gauge. AFAIK hop rubbers are measured in 00 scale. 

[Zarrin]

 

Durometer scale... nice one @E21A that's my 'learn something new every day' checked off 👍

 

I'd always wondered if it might be the temperature the molded rubber was left to cure / cool down at - resulting in slightly differing hardness properties. I think steel hardening uses those kind of principles. However when you compare a 50 vs an 80 (let's say Maple Leaf) hop rubber, they look and feel like they are made of totally different materials; the softer ones being more matt and granular, closer to the feel of an eraser while the harder grades are a little more shiny and feel a bit more plasticky like silicone tubing. 

[Old Guy]

So that's it! Thank you very much guys, especially Zarrin.

One more question, please. What is the likely bucking rating in a budget AEG and does it improve performance if it is changed to,say, 50 degree  in such a gun? Mine is a Cyma M4 CQB something or other and I expect to shoot .25gram BBs 

[Adolf Hamster]

10 hours ago, Old Guy said:

So that's it! Thank you very much guys, especially Zarrin.

One more question, please. What is the likely bucking rating in a budget AEG and does it improve performance if it is changed to,say, 50 degree  in such a gun? Mine is a Cyma M4 CQB something or other and I expect to shoot .25gram BBs 

 

the stock bucking on an aeg is kinda dependant on the manufacturer, if their primary market is higher fps or warmer countries it'll likely be harder than a lower fps gun for a colder country.

 

there's also the actual quality of the rubber, which is a lot of what you're trying to get with aftermarket buckings. as well as a few of them are trying different shaped contact patches (eg the ML macaron is a pseudo R-hop). some manufacturers are decent at this (eg tm or g&g) others are pretty bad.

 

for .25's it's probably not going to be a massive boost, however if you want to lift heavier then it's something to consider. generally i find PDI's W-hop are a nice and pretty universal (at least as far as anything in airsoft is universal) drop-in for up to the .32g range, anything heavier then ml macaron 50° with omega nub when setup right can lift all the way up to .48's at 1j.

 

the reason you tend to preferr harder when going to higher fps is the harder compound is less flexible and can take higher pressures without risking leaking, add in the fact the faster a given weight of bb is going the less spin it needs to fly properly you can afford to sacrifice a bit of grip in exchange.

[Skara]

If you're just going to sling 0.25s then a bog standard prometheus purple rubber is all you need. It's what I use in my tournament M4.

TM, Lonex and G&G rubbers are all decent too.

 

Flat hopping gives you a slight range and consistency advantage over a standard mound rubber, but it's almost unnoticeable.

[Lozart]

13 hours ago, Old Guy said:

So that's it! Thank you very much guys, especially Zarrin.

One more question, please. What is the likely bucking rating in a budget AEG and does it improve performance if it is changed to,say, 50 degree  in such a gun? Mine is a Cyma M4 CQB something or other and I expect to shoot .25gram BBs 

I'd echo what the guys above have said but to add I have generally found the Cyma buckings tend to be too hard as the guns come out the factory way hotter than our market allows. Plus they tend to be cheap and a bit crap.

 

For 0.25g at 340/350 FPS I'd go with Prometheus purple or Maple Leaf Macaron at either 50 or 60 degree (plus the Omega nub - you'll need that to get the bucking to hold its shape properly).

[Old Guy]

This is all very interesting. I take on board everything said here but ask if this little gizmo is another way of improving the contact area of the bucking? They call it an H - Nub and they cost £3.69 delivered, Is it worth it?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

11 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

This is all very interesting. I take on board everything said here but ask if this little gizmo is another way of improving the contact area of the bucking? They call it an H - Nub and they cost £3.69 delivered, Is it worth it?

 

the h nub imo is pretty terrible, has a very nasty habit of sitting off-centre when applying pressure meaning it'll curve either to the left or right.

 

the standard flat nub (on a flathopped bucking) or omega nub (on a maple leaf bucking) are much better solutions.

 

it depends on your situation, if you're just running in cqb then as above a standard prometheus purple or g&g green with a standard nub is going to be all you need.

 

if your outdoor and budget concious then a PDI W-hop with standard nub gives good results up to ~0.3g range, or you can flathop a prommy/g&g and use a flat nub.

 

if you really want range then it's maple leaf with omega nub spinning up the heaviest ammo you can afford.

 

in general i find the "standard" style tend to be more forgiving of hop adjustment, flathops can give excellent results but tend to have a very small "sweet spot" where you're getting the right lift and the ml stuff can be sensitive in some guns/hop units.

[Zarrin]

10 hours ago, Old Guy said:

This is all very interesting. I take on board everything said here but ask if this little gizmo is another way of improving the contact area of the bucking? They call it an H - Nub and they cost £3.69 delivered, Is it worth it?

 

Yeah I went through an H nub phase - though i've since replaced most of them with maple leafs with omega nubs.

 

I had mixed results with them - I did manage to set one or two guns up to work really well with them - actually I think my SPR still has one inside - though when I get round to overhauling it I will probably put an ML in that too.

 

@Adolf Hamster is right about them potentially causing side spin issues - I think they probably work better when the tolerances and size of the hop channel and window space is a little tighter so that it doesn't have room to have that horizontal movement.

[Old Guy]

Can't these little H gizmos be glued to the hop arm to prevent the twisting problem?

[Adolf Hamster]

15 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

Can't these little H gizmos be glued to the hop arm to prevent the twisting problem?

 

yes, some hop arms i've met have them as an integrated part of the arm shape.

 

but the flat/omega nub is still the better option.

[Lozart]

On 23/06/2020 at 09:05, Old Guy said:

This is all very interesting. I take on board everything said here but ask if this little gizmo is another way of improving the contact area of the bucking? They call it an H - Nub and they cost £3.69 delivered, Is it worth it?

 

 

 

These were the holy grail years ago but better solutions have presented themselves since then. Easiest route is the Maple Leaf rubber and Omega nub, potentially the "best" route (depending on what you're actually hoping for) is flat hop or R hop.

[Old Guy]

This is a very involving subject considering I have yet to skirmish. At present I use my M4 to 'nudge' unwanted bird species off my feeders. I haven't seen a starling in days! 

I now have most of the gear for a good scrap but I'm afraid I'll be the ATGANI guy when I finally go for a days play.

[Adolf Hamster]

ATGANI?

 

if you wanna know a bit more about hops here's some of the science behind it:

 

basically the tl:dr if you want range is:

heavier ammo goes further if you can spin it

the amount of spin depends on bb weight and velocity (ie faster the bb goes it needs less spin to lift the same weight)

a softer compound/larger contact patch provides more spin

 

for accuracy (assuming you can hop whatever weight you're choosing to run) you want:

good air seal (fps consistency)

good quality ammo (so the weight/size/shape doesn't change much shot-shot)

a good quality barrel (where quality is more important than nominal bore size/length)

no rattling about in the assembly (eg hop/barrel moving around inside the gun or the whole gun wobbling)

and most importantly- keeping everything clean

 

generally a lot of stock guns, even the cheaper brands, can shoot pretty damn well with not much more than some air seal tweaking, a good barrel clean and good ammo.

 

these days i tend to recommend maple leaf's stuff over "proper" R-hops because the latter is a massive pain in the ass to do right and tbh the ML gives the same effect.

[Old Guy]

Thank you, Mr Hamster. You have gone 'above and beyond' with this. I don't want to be a PITA but I have become intrigued with the subject and hope that it will give me a better first impression when the pew-pewing starts again.

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, Old Guy said:

Thank you, Mr Hamster. You have gone 'above and beyond' with this. I don't want to be a PITA but I have become intrigued with the subject and hope that it will give me a better first impression when the pew-pewing starts again.

 

np man, it can be quite the daunting subject when you're starting out. hopefully this will shave some of the time/tinkering out of finding a combo that works for you.