Variable Zoom Optics

[Liam1992]

So, I have a G&G Elcan Spectre 1-4x Variable Zoom Optics on a WE M4 GBBR setup to run as a semi-only DMR. 

 

The Optic isn't half bad, to be fair to it. The eye relief is decent so it's fairly easy to use but has one drawback. 

 

The zeroing shift between 1 and 4x Zoom is considerable, to the point where realistically you can only zero to one or the other and commit to using that (or do some crazy point of aim adjustments on the fly like the Range Flags are horizontal which just isn't happening). 

 

So, the question is, what is the general concensus on use? I'm leaning towards 1x because of the ranges involved, and target acquisition is a lot easier in the 1x. 

 

But just interested in the thoughts of the community! 

[Skara]

I'd throw it away and get a LPVO like a visionking, or something that actually retains zero when adjusting the magnification.

I mean, what's the point of having a variable zoom optic if you can't properly use it?

 

Edit: I'd run my visionking 1.25-5x26 if customs were kind enough to send it my way.

[PopRocket123]

I run a 1-4x short dot. I use the 1x 95% of the time and only push the magnification up for longer precision shots

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

3 minutes ago, Skara said:

I'd throw it away and get a LPVO like a visionking, or something that actually retains zero when adjusting the magnification.

I mean, what's the point of having a variable zoom optic if you can't properly use it?

I feel like the concept of "holding zero" rapidly loses its worth in airsoft the further the distance you're shooting at, especially if shooting under .4g.  I found my spectre (long gone) and visionking really shine if you're using the scopes to spot first, shoot second.

[Skara]

1 minute ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

I feel like the concept of "holding zero" rapidly loses its worth in airsoft the further the distance you're shooting at, especially if shooting under .4g.  I found my spectre (long gone) and visionking really shine if you're using the scopes to spot first, shoot second.

That is true, but the OP mentioned a sensible shifting in zero, which I guess makes the optic useless in one of the two mag levels. To me that is just extra unnecessary weight since I can't use the optic for its intended purpose.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

1 minute ago, Skara said:

That is true, but the OP mentioned a sensible shifting in zero, which I guess makes the optic useless in one of the two mag levels. To me that is just extra unnecessary weight since I can't use the optic for its intended purpose.

I guess what I was trying to say there was that the optic isn't useless as such - I consider spotting at that zoom level to be all you can hope to do consistently, unless you're using a tricked out rif firing heavy weights. Hence thinking zeroing for 1x is a good idea.

 

Your suggestion of an LPVO is decent though from weight alone - the Spectres are *heavy*

[Zarrin]

As @Skara and others say, an LPVO option is the way to go, i have something similar to this one on my Mk18 (though not actually visionking): https://www.amazon.co.uk/ATOM-Optics-Compact-illuminated-reticle/dp/B0747RKMSS/ref=sr_1_3?crid=157MTWA2WGNCO&dchild=1&keywords=1-4x+scope&qid=1588332953&sprefix=1-4x+%2Caps%2C147&sr=8-3

 

They have such crystal clear optics, especially at the lower power settings, and i've tested running both eyes open at 1x zoom and it works as well as any RDS. Though ofc that image quality will be down to the manufacturer and the quality of the glass used. 

The one advantage of the spectre is that the lever on the side allows very quick zoom transition - with the LPVO scopes you have to twist which is never going to be quite as fast. 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

must admit i've not really had enough field time on my elcan to see if it has zero retention problems, but it does make sense, the way that mechanism works if it's cheaply made (which lets face it all airsoft versions will be) it'll struggle to hold zero.

 

you kind of have a few options:

zero at 4x and hope the deviation at 1x isn't too bad to use

zero at 1x and just learn the shift when at 4x

zero and leave at 4x and stack a red dot on there

 

as others have mentioned, the lpvo style optics tend to have much better zero retention when changing zoom.

 

however, that said, is changing zoom something you're really going to be doing much in the field? because on any of these "1x" optics it's never really 1x and it still has limitations in terms of eyebox etc which is a detriment to rapid acquisition (which is the point of having it at a low setting)

 

i tend to find with my m4 these days running a 1.25-6 variable and a stacked mini rds is that i'm using the red dot 90% of the time, and the variable just stays fixed on 4x for when i need to check and make sure my bb's are actually going where i think they're going if i'm not sure if someone is being creative. switching head positions to check is much much faster than twiddling switches/rotating dials. remember in the rs shooting world folk use irons/open dots to shoot out to 300m and no airsoft gun can hope to make it that far, so really all an optic lets you do is track your bb's further than your normal vision would allow (which makes up for the lack of splash/guaranteed target reaction you'd get using an actual bullet)

 

the scope zarrin linked to is pretty damn good, and has a pretty decent 1x to it (ie it's actually usable instead of a red dot) and absolutely does hold when shifting up to 4x.

 

however, that said, spectres are badass looking optics, and lets face it that's an awful lot of what airsoft is about.

[Zarrin]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

(ie it's actually usable instead of a red dot)

 

I would argue it's better, as the level of optical clarity represents a distant target as if it's a few cm away from your eye, so unless you have 20/20 vision the 1x optic is going to give you better vision than an RDS even at 1x mag. Having said that, if you require reading glasses then it may have the opposite effect.

[Lozart]

1 hour ago, Zarrin said:

The one advantage of the spectre is that the lever on the side allows very quick zoom transition - with the LPVO scopes you have to twist which is never going to be quite as fast. 

 

I use a throw lever on my LPVO sights, makes zooming much easier! You should be able to adjust the friction level of the collar on half decent ones.

[Adolf Hamster]

2 minutes ago, Zarrin said:

 

I would argue it's better, as the level of optical clarity represents a distant target as if it's a few cm away from your eyes, so unless you have 20/20 vision the 1x optic is going to give you better vision than an RDS even at 1x mag. Having said that, if you require reading glasses then it may have the opposite effect.

 

i'm very slightly short sighted which is how i got into magnified optics (once i got the hang of getting my guns accurately firing beyond my normal visual range).

 

i can see where you're coming from but i'm thinking primarily from snap-shooting for targets close enough that speed is the key factor. i found running that optic alone wasn't quite as quick as the stacked rds setup i'm running now.

 

of course we're getting very much into personal preference territory at this stage, and your play-style is going to dictate a lot of what's important for you.

 

generally i'm either engaging actively at the edge of my range, or when i'm being sneaky having to snap-shoot at relatively close range when someone walks round a bush.

[Zarrin]

1 hour ago, Lozart said:

I use a throw lever on my LPVO sights, makes zooming much easier! You should be able to adjust the friction level of the collar on half decent ones.

 

Yeah mine has the threaded dowel piece that definitely makes it easier than scrolling with your hand clamped around the ring... same as the one below:
Looks like you can also get after market clamp-on throw levers which have quite long handles, I can imagine these make it all the more easy as you get a little more leverage. 

 

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

i'm very slightly short sighted which is how i got into magnified optics (once i got the hang of getting my guns accurately firing beyond my normal visual range).

 

i can see where you're coming from but i'm thinking primarily from snap-shooting for targets close enough that speed is the key factor. i found running that optic alone wasn't quite as quick as the stacked rds setup i'm running now.

 

of course we're getting very much into personal preference territory at this stage, and your play-style is going to dictate a lot of what's important for you.

 

generally i'm either engaging actively at the edge of my range, or when i'm being sneaky having to snap-shoot at relatively close range when someone walks round a bush.

 

For sure, personal pref is gonna be different and the determining factor. 

I actually had laser correction in both eyes in 2010, and for a good 3-4 years of perfect vision, RDS became way better than they had been previously, both because i could see clearly at distance but also somehow the changes from the operation meant that the red dots themselves were clearer with less ghosting and halo effect - though obviously some are just cheap and terrible and have crap red dot projection. 

Anyway, since then my vision has dropped off again slightly - still don't need to go back to glasses, but it's not quite as sharp as it was for the first few years after the op, but now is when i really appreciate the low powered magnified optic which honestly seems to give me as good if not better clarity than when i actually had better than 20/20; I imagine because the actual zoom level at 1x is actually ever so slightly higher.

 

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

i found running that optic alone wasn't quite as quick as the stacked rds setup i'm running now.

 

One of the first magnified optics i bought was an acog clone which had a little mini rds up top, it was a cool looking setup, but i didn't like losing my cheek weld to peep over the top (though honestly it was not much different from running my M2 up on the M733 carry handle). You ever tried canted RDS ? - problem is with the way hop works i'm not certain how good that would be, if you have it dialed in well it would probably still work within 20 metres or so.

[Musica]

32 minutes ago, Zarrin said:

 

Yeah mine has the threaded dowel piece that definitely makes it easier than scrolling with your hand clamped around the ring... same as the one below:
Looks like you can also get after market clamp on throw levers which have quite long handles, I can imagine these make it all the more easy as you get a little more leverage. 

 

 

 

 

I like your adjust I've been looking at something for mine but not sure it will fit my vision king.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Riflescope-Throw-Lever-Power-Ring-Scope-Magnification-Fit-for-44-mm-Diameter-New/223550097850?_trkparms=aid%3D1110004%26algo%3DSPLICE.COMP%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200220094952%26meid%3D3f4098e9904b44938c12aa25c90b7355%26pid%3D100008%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D174215969543%26itm%3D223550097850%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3Ddefault%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219

[Zarrin]

14 minutes ago, Musica said:

I like your adjust I've been looking at something for mine but not sure it will fit my vision king.

 

Says its 44mm, try measure the scroll wheel diameter on your VK, looks like there is a little bit of give and take on that diameter, judging by the way it tightens onto the optic.

[Adolf Hamster]

59 minutes ago, Zarrin said:

One of the first magnified optics i bought was an acog clone which had a little mini rds up top, it was a cool looking setup, but i didn't like losing my cheek weld to peep over the top (though honestly it was not much different from running my M2 up on the M733 carry handle). You ever tried canted RDS ? - problem is with the way hop works i'm not certain how good that would be, if you have it dialed in well it would probably still work within 20 metres or so.

 

the setup i have currently sits between a pretty low cheek weld for the scope and a chin weld for the rds, works pretty well tbh although i reckon my scope is slightly lower mounted than an acog.

 

canted dots i've not used, the hop issue is a big one and whilst they're the tacticool thing these days i'd much rather go with stacked for practicality.

 

most of my guns are just running a plain red dot of some description, although i've tried a few different options over the years. magnifiers are a good idea in theory but i've yet to meet an airsoft one that holds zero to the dot, and has any kind of usable eye releif/clarity.

[Zarrin]

6 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

canted dots i've not used, the hop issue is a big one and whilst they're the tacticool thing these days i'd much rather go with stacked for practicality.

 

I agree, and I also get the impression that you would need a bit of retraining to instinctively start canting your gun to the side when you are actually in shooting environment, when BBs are flying your way; but I suppose as with anything else this can come naturally with a bit of drilling.

 

17 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

magnifiers are a good idea in theory but i've yet to meet an airsoft one that holds zero to the dot, and has any kind of usable eye releif/clarity.

 

Yeah, the one i have belongs in the bin, I remember spending so much time getting raisers n all that bs to get it lined up just so with my 553, and it just didn't work, terrible sight picture, really wobbly base that totally ignored zero - piece o crap! 😒

[Adolf Hamster]

5 minutes ago, Zarrin said:

I agree, and I also get the impression that you would need a bit of retraining to instinctively start canting your gun to the side when you are actually in shooting environment, when BBs are flying your way; but I suppose as with anything else this can come naturally with a bit of drilling.

 

i do occasionally do a bit of canting either to compensate for wind or to shoot round corners, but that's just part and parcel of the heaps of kentucky windage you need to use for an airsoft gun anyway.

 

6 minutes ago, Zarrin said:

Yeah, the one i have belongs in the bin, I remember spending so much time getting raisers n all that bs to get it lined up just so with my 553, and it just didn't work, terrible sight picture, really wobbly base that totally ignored zero - piece o crap! 😒

 

same, the mount is the key thing, although you also need the tube to have enough eye relief that you aren't literally pressing your glasses to the magnifier just to get a sight picture.

 

i'd love one of the vortex ones, but i reckon for it to be useable i might end up having to splash out on an rs one.

[Zarrin]

43 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

same, the mount is the key thing, although you also need the tube to have enough eye relief that you aren't literally pressing your glasses to the magnifier just to get a sight picture.

 

i'd love one of the vortex ones, but i reckon for it to be useable i might end up having to splash out on an rs one.

 

Yeah, I'm cheap... not holding out for a Vortex or other RS myself 😅  

[Adolf Hamster]

23 minutes ago, Zarrin said:

 

Yeah, I'm cheap... not holding out for a Vortex or other RS myself 😅  

 

yeah, it's kind of why i went with the lpvo route.

[Zarrin]

4 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

yeah, it's kind of why i went with the lpvo route.

 

Exactly, the LPVO does away with the need for a magnifier. I'm actually thinking about using it @ 1x next time I go CQB.

[Adolf Hamster]

1 minute ago, Zarrin said:

 

Exactly, the LPVO does away with the need for a magnifier. I'm actually thinking about using it @ 1x next time I go CQB.

 

i tried that before getting the stacked setup and i just ended up hip firing like mad.

 

then went and switched to my ak which running a pk-a rds is a lesson in paying attention to your bore offset

[Zarrin]

39 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

then went and switched to my ak which running a pk-a rds is a lesson in paying attention to your bore offset

 

Oh yeah, I remember... talk about come full circle 

Man this thread is hijacked af! sorry @Liam1992I reckon you still should be able to find some useful little bits of info to consider in the above 😜

[Liam1992]

Absolutely no need to apologise, some interesting points! 

 

I'm also slightly short sighted, and do find that the 1x does provide a clearer image (like the difference between SD & HD TV Channels) which is useful for when picking out people lying in a hedge. 

 

I'm a glasses wearer day to day, so perhaps should invest in some prescription ballistic glasses!