Not another university questionnaire!

[Adolf Hamster]

Hi Guys

 

I'm expecting a fun response to this, being a brand new member starting out with a research questionnaire, but as far as i can see the rules don't seem to forbid it so here goes.....

 

I'm a northern irish airsoft aficionado, and i'm currently doing a university project based around airsoft (it'll be cool if it works, which it probably won't) and part of this means i need to do some market research to find out what the airsoft community wants.

 

now i know it's annoying when someone posts a questionnaire that's 40 pages of repeated questions and needs you to fill out your email at the end, but fear not! this one is only 3 questions and anonymous:

 

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/YQQSKFT

 

if anyone feels like taking a minute to fill this out it'd be greatly appreciated, if not then please feel free to flame/delete/ban as you see fit

[EDcase]

Done.

Last one a bit confusing at first.  Just drag options in order of preference from most important at top to least important at bottom.

 

Interested to know what your project is...

[Adolf Hamster]

3 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Done.

Last one a bit confusing at first.  Just drag options in order of preference from most important at top to least important at bottom.

 

Interested to know what your project is...

 

the multiple choice? i'll confess to having no idea how survey monkey works thanks for filling it in!

 

the project is basically to try and make an improved mechanism to replace aeg's, i'm looking at a few different options but primarily using an electromagnet instead of a motor to draw back the piston. no idea if it'll work or not- hence it being a project

[EDcase]

Ah interesting.

 

But I doubt an electromagnet will have the field strength to compress the piston spring.

I'd suggest to look into using the electromagnet to push the piston closed instead.... 

[Adolf Hamster]

2 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Ah interesting.

 

But I doubt an electromagnet will have the field strength to compress the piston spring.

I'd suggest to look into using the electromagnet to push the piston closed instead.... 

 

indeed, the electromagnet isn't the only option but if it works it's the best candidate in terms of functionality.

 

it's weird, on the 1 hand you're right- getting the force necessary seems an impossible task (about 210n for a 1j spring), on the other hand you're looking at just over 1 joule of energy (based on northern irish fps limits), but would be cool if it works.

 

i did consider using the electromagnet in both directions, but i like the idea of using a spring and having a mechanical trigger mechanism for that gbb feel.

[EDcase]

Yeah its interesting for sure.

Good luck and keep us updated.

 

I might be talking to the creator of the next airsoft revolution

[Adolf Hamster]

1 minute ago, EDcase said:

Yeah its interesting for sure.

Good luck and keep us updated.

 

I might be talking to the creator of the next airsoft revolution

 

indeed, thanks for your enthusiasm

[LightningCh]

I attempted to do it but the site crashed so no idea if it sent it or not (it says i have already taken the survey now) lol. 

[Gepard]

Finished. Agree with @EDcase in regards to the 1-10 question.

[Adolf Hamster]

3 minutes ago, Gepard said:

Finished. Agree with @EDcase in regards to the 1-10 question.

 

i'll edit it see if i can word it a bit better, i thought it gave you drop down boxes

 

edit: done, you can tell i'm not studying marketing

[Gepard]

1 minute ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

i'll edit it see if i can word it a bit better, i thought it gave you drop down boxes

There's nothing wrong with the format. I was just being daft and didn't read the question properly. 

[Adolf Hamster]

Just now, Gepard said:

There's nothing wrong with the format. I was just being daft and didn't read the question properly. 

 

 

it's no problem, i can see how it's confusing, at least it should be fixed now

[Jedi_Master]

@Adolf HamsterAre you going to post the results here once your survey is complete? It would be interesting for us to see what priority order was chosen.

[Adolf Hamster]

6 minutes ago, Jedi_Master said:

@Adolf HamsterAre you going to post the results here once your survey is complete? It would be interesting for us to see what priority order was chosen.

 

sure i can post the results here, planning to leave this up for a couple of weeks and i've some paper surveys going to out to my local sites to add too.

[Rogerborg]

Cheeky survey monkey, that's 12 questions, not 3.  You had me at "Adolf Hamster" though.

 

I feel compelled to note that the last 10-parter is a classic case of beating around the gilded lilly.  It's overly burdensome to complete and doesn't tell you how much we care about any of those aspects.  I'm really only interested in my top 3, other people might be raging about 8, or only bump one must-have to the top and just not bother re-arranging the others.  That passion or apathy won't be captured in your results, even if you get the answers for which you're clearly fishing.

 

Speaking for me, it's a properly interesting idea though.  It would certainly simplify AEGs if you could remove the rotary-to-linear parts, and most of us rely on EM pistons actuating flawlessly in fuel injectors thousands of times a minute just to get us to game sites. EM rather than chain/gear/tappet driven poppet valves are going to come to internal combustion engines as well sooner rather than later.

 

However, against that, currently gearboxes work well enough, and are cheap enough when mass produced. And I'm a cheapskate.

 

Are you intending to complete on features (programmable ROF and FPS), or on simplicity and cost?

 

Since you've blabbed the idea, I assume you've already got a patent filed?

[Adolf Hamster]

24 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Cheeky survey monkey, that's 12 questions, not 3.  You had me at "Adolf Hamster" though.

 

I feel compelled to note that the last 10-parter is a classic case of beating around the gilded lilly.  It's overly burdensome to complete and doesn't tell you how much we care about any of those aspects.  I'm really only interested in my top 3, other people might be raging about 8, or only bump one must-have to the top and just not bother re-arranging the others.  That passion or apathy won't be captured in your results, even if you get the answers for which you're clearly fishing.

 

Speaking for me, it's a properly interesting idea though.  It would certainly simplify AEGs if you could remove the rotary-to-linear parts, and most of us rely on EM pistons actuating flawlessly in fuel injectors thousands of times a minute just to get us to game sites. EM rather than chain/gear/tappet driven poppet valves are going to come to internal combustion engines as well sooner rather than later.

 

However, against that, currently gearboxes work well enough, and are cheap enough when mass produced. And I'm a cheapskate.

 

Are you intending to complete on features (programmable ROF and FPS), or on simplicity and cost?

 

Since you've blabbed the idea, I assume you've already got a patent filed?

 

the reason i went for a ranking in the 3rd question is because i wanted to try and avoid everyone just picking everything, although i get your point that it's not perfect at covering all the bases, i'm sure there's better ways of doing it but as i said- i'm not studying marketing.

 

as for patents, i'd rather try and get something that is actually functional first. plus of course this being airsoft i'd need to spend thousands patenting it in every country in asia and i'd still get instantly ripped off. that is of course assuming it works well enough to supplant the mighty tm gearbox, which has the weight of a pseudo industry standard behind it.

 

of course if that happens i'll still be happy, i don't have the business acumen to make millions from this so i'm really doing it because it's something i want to be able to have (and so i'll get my degree )

 

things like programmable rof are definately on the cards if the basic premise works, it'll still be spring firing so assuming there's enough overhead in the electromagnet to accomodate higher power with a stronger spring you'd be able to adjust fps the same as an aeg (although by this stage i'll be looking at quick change springs too)

[AshOnSnow]

5 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

the multiple choice? i'll confess to having no idea how survey monkey works thanks for filling it in!

 

the project is basically to try and make an improved mechanism to replace aeg's, i'm looking at a few different options but primarily using an electromagnet instead of a motor to draw back the piston. no idea if it'll work or not- hence it being a project

 

Not wanting to poke my nose in where it isn't wanted, but I think the biggest issue with housing an electromagnet strong enough to compress the spring will be the issues of a wider magnetic field which can cause issues with other gear (what happens when you hold it too close to your vest and you end up pulling your grenade pin out with it, or if it starts interfering with your red dot sight?)

[Adolf Hamster]

9 minutes ago, AshOnSnow said:

 

Not wanting to poke my nose in where it isn't wanted, but I think the biggest issue with housing an electromagnet strong enough to compress the spring will be the issues of a wider magnetic field which can cause issues with other gear (what happens when you hold it too close to your vest and you end up pulling your grenade pin out with it, or if it starts interfering with your red dot sight?)

 

y'know i have no idea, but you make a good point, guess there's only 1 way to find out

[LightningCh]

I know full well it would happen to me! lol.
Would 100% be "that guy"...

And I'd most likely do it again 5 minutes later and then cry to myself because ive got no money left from all the pyros i never got to use...

[Adolf Hamster]

wow, there's a lot better response to this survey than i'd originally expected.

 

still ongoing but for those who are curious:

outdoor skirmishing is most popular, with indoor closely following it (45/55 split), and a couple of chaps into milsim, nobody liks re-enactment

 

the AEG is the vastly dominant system at 70%, with GBB and HPA taking the majority of the rest

 

the most popular feature is bb consistency, the least is adjustable rate of fire, and the rest are a pretty equal spread, i guess rogerborg is right that it might have been better to have distinguished just how important each feature is to a person rather than a ranking, ahh well i've started so i'll finish

[Hangtight]

You don't have to set the bar very high for efficiency. At the moment only about 20% of the energy put in emerges as kinetic energy in the form of 200mph little plastic balls. And of the energy that actually gets put into the spring, about 85% gets transferred to the BB. (Which is actually pretty damn good)

[Adolf Hamster]

9 minutes ago, Hangtight said:

You don't have to set the bar very high for efficiency. At the moment only about 20% of the energy put in emerges as kinetic energy in the form of 200mph little plastic balls. And of the energy that actually gets put into the spring, about 85% gets transferred to the BB. (Which is actually pretty damn good)

 

well for the coil idea i'd be happy if it was roughly equivalent to an AEG in terms of being able to do a day's airsofting on a single battery (well, depending on how trigger happy you are  )

 

do you have any references for those numbers your quoting? would be great to have a read if someone's already done some research on this topic.

[Hangtight]

It's simple maths. 1J/s= 1W. So 350 fps  (1.14J) × 20rps = 22.8W output.

The gun that fires those BBs draws 16A @ 7.4v = 118.4W input

In sure you can work out the percentage.

As for the spring efficiency, if you know the spring rate and the amount it's  compressed then you know the stored energy. You know the output energy contained in the BB (ignoring it's rotational energy anyway), and that's it.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, Hangtight said:

It's simple maths. 1J/s= 1W. So 350 fps  (1.14J) × 20rps = 22.8W output.

The gun that fires those BBs draws 16A @ 7.4v = 118.4W input

In sure you can work out the percentage.

As for the spring efficiency, if you know the spring rate and the amount it's  compressed then you know the stored energy. You know the output energy contained in the BB (ignoring it's rotational energy anyway), and that's it.

 

 

i see where your coming from, i did do some work before on this and got ~209n for a 1j spring theoretically, but plan is to get some proper testing done to confirm that for sure (because there's friction etc to add in as well), of course you don't need to get all of that from the coil, just to get enough kinetic energy over the length of the stroke and any left over will give you a simulated recoil.

 

where are you getting your 16amps from? presumably that figure's going to vary for different gearing/motor combinations.

[Hangtight]

The 16A is measured off one of my guns using a cheap RC power analyser. But it will vary. In this case it's a 16TPA neodynium magnet motor, 13.66:1 gears and M100 spring. Low resistance wiring, connectors and a mosfet keep parasitic losses low.