MP40 problem

[kppr6]

Hello new to the forum, I am a collector of militaria rather than a skirmisher,  although skirmishing looks like a really great thing to be involved with   my situation is, 3 years ago i was looking to purchase a two tone mp40 for display purposes, a deactivated one was way to pricey for me, l looked on gunstar and a dealer with a large web page and online store was selling mp40s where he stated ukara or can be sold full colour as an air gun, i emailed him , still got copy of email. He said it fired more than 400fps so was an air gun, i did some online research and found it all very confusing, i did come to the conclusion that the dealer was operating within the law as why would he risk his, large and still trading, business for a £190 airsoft gun. Anyway i got it delivered, fired it a couple of times and then it went into a display case. So two things there is now an mp40 air rifle, that would suit me more, and now i hear you cannot have an airsoft gun firing over 370 fps or that is a firearms offence!. I have never chronographed it and hardly used it, what do i do with it now? It seems im stuck with it, cant sell it , maybe i should just cut it up with an angle grinder, any thoughts? You guys are the experts.....and i certainley DO NOT want to break the law, thank you.

[Jedi_Master]

I have looked at the gunstar website https://www.gunstar.co.uk/  and did not see many airsoft guns.  Mainly airguns, some of which are in my opinion incorrectly labelled as airsoft but do not fire 6mm BBs.  Can you confirm that it uses plastic 6mm BBs and not 4.5mm (.177) BBs?  Do you know what manufacturer made your MP40?  Is the gun electric (has a battery), gas, or uses CO2 bulb? 

 

[kppr6]

Hi thanks for the reply, its a 6mm plastic bb gun, and its aeg? Make Ive hardly used it but I want to get rid of it as I'm not in the skirmishing community and I do not want to  break the law. Any info would be good. 

[Jedi_Master]

A two tone gun is an Imitation Firearm (IF) and does not need a defence to purchase.  It is illegal to sell an IF to anyone under 18 years old.  Rough guide for pricing second hand guns is 2/3, so yours is worth around £120. 

[kppr6]

Thanks for the reply,  but the gun is in full colour,  realistic,  and as im a collecter rather than a skirmisher I am keen to dispose of it due to the constant shift in law change regarding airsoft etc, I think I would prefer saving up for a deac,  thanks

[kppr6]

Im really non the wiser here?   It is so confusing for me, what do I do with my mp40? Not two tone.

[Jedi_Master]

Okay, so it is a Realistic Imitation Firearm (RIF) [actual not bright colour].  Because it is a RIF the responsibility is with the seller to ensure that the buyer has a valid defence. 

 

Assuming that it can fire automatic and not just single shot, the new threshold is 1.3 Joules muzzle velocity (the max fps is based on weight of BB used).  Best way to reduce the fps is with a less powerful spring, however, that is a technical question and best asked / answered in another topic.

[springs]

if you want it just for display purposes and don't intend to shoot it, can't you just open it up and remove the contents of the gearbox and therefore it won't be able to shoot

[kppr6]

Ok would that be 'legal' as I thought it was illegal to alter an RIF, sorry for the confusion but im  keen to sort it out,  like I said earlier, I would be happy to destroy the gun rather than fall foul of the law or any airsoft regulations,  thanks. 

[EDcase]

Since it fires plastic BBs I don't think the authorities would be too concerned even if they did find out about it being slightly overpowered.  They might confiscate it but you haven't modified it to increase power so the dealer would be responsible.  (They're more worried about real guns being used in shootings)

 

Its legal to modify the internals as long as you are not trying to get it overpowered.

You can change the spring to a less powerful one or remove it completely.

[gray134]

Hi, originally ukara registration was to allow a "valid defence" if stopped by the police while carrying a "realistic imitation firearm" or in other words a bb gun that looked like a real gun, ukara was not a definate defence in law though but gave a valid reason to be carrying one which should be accepted.  a two tone bb gun within certain pwer limits was classed as being visibly a toy and not a real gun

 

the laws have changed recently and airsoft is now recognised withing the firearms act as a sport in the UK giving a defined defence if carrying one to or from a game site.  power restrictions have been outlined in the bill now as below

 

A gun capable of firing multiple shots with a single trigger pull (full auto and burst), must fire below 1.3 joules of energy. This is 370fps using a 0.2g BB.

A gun that fires 1 shot per trigger pull has a higher limit of 2.5 joules, or 520fps using 0.2g BBs.

 

I have borrowed the next part from a write up from Abbeygas as it seems pretty well thought out

What happens if your gun is over the limits?

If your gun is firing above the specified limits, it is no longer classed as an airsoft weapon. However, what this means in the eyes of the law remains to be seen.

Only the courts will decide what happens to someone who is found to be in breach of these rules. Technically, speaking anyone found in possession of a Section 5 firearm without a license is sentenced to a mandatory 5 years in prison. Not to mention the implication of firing a section 5 firearm at someone else.

No one has publicly been prosecuted (under previous law or current), so this leaves uncertainty as to how they will be treated by the courts.

 

as you believe it is capable of 400fps and is full auto i would check for a local site/store that does upgrades, take it down to them and ask them to downrate the spring to below 370.  they should be able to chron and confirm the power and if necessary fit a lower power spring.  I would reccomend below 350fps then you would be able to sell it on to an airsoft player as most site have a 350 limit for full auto.

 

you could remove the gearbox although the law does state it should not be "readily convertible" and putting in a new gearbox may be seen as this.

 

you also mentioned legality of altering a rif.  the legal side is about converting it to a higher power than allowed as above or being able to convert it to fire real ammunition.  changing parts to reduce power or removing parts to stop it being able to fire should not be an issue.

 

I do need to point out I am not a lawyer just an airsoft player reading up on the changes so i cannot state im 100% accurate but hopefully this may be of help

 

you could also look at the ukara site and drop them a message for advice as they have been involved in getting the legislation for airsoft through the uk government

 

 

 

[AndyGif290368]

8 hours ago, gray134 said:

You could also look at the ukara site and drop them a message for advice as they have been involved in getting the legislation for airsoft through the uk government

I'd say contact UKAPU rather than UKARA, as forner is for the players and later is for retailers to cover their own butts.

I don't recall UKARA being that vocal in the last set of changes being imposed.

 

https://www.ukapu.org.uk

[Rogerborg]

9 hours ago, gray134 said:

you could remove the gearbox although the law does state it should not be "readily convertible" and putting in a new gearbox may be seen as this.

 

Wouldn't that argument apply to any airsoft gun? 

 

Downgrade it to 1.3J (or 0J) and you're fine to keep it.  Down to 1.14J / 350fp @ 0.2g and you'll find a buyer (who can offer you a RIF defence).  Bin the gearbox and you're fine.  Heck, sell the gearbox separately, binning or clipping the spring if you really want to cover yourself.

 

For the record, I work with the police doing intel, crime & custody systems and my experience has been that most coppers' legal knowledge tends to be decades out of date and largely picked up in the canteen rather than from any formal training regarding the law.

 

We have so many laws (93 referencing badgers alone) that they can only hit the high notes of them. "Why are you transporting a real looking gun in public?", rather than the minutiae: "What is the air speed velocity of that unladen AEG?"

 

The chances of even a firearms officer knowing the nuances of energy limits are slight, and the chances of them ever caring enough about a display-only airsoft AEG (perhaps) shooting 0.2J over the limit enough to suspect, investigate, pass it to the CPS / Fiscal and for them to prosecute and secure a conviction are so low that it simply doesn't concern me at all.

 

I understand there may have been a case of an HPA gun being seized recently, but that's a different kettle of fish since that is "readily convertible" to shoot at high energies, and it's obviously something different to a regular AEG or gas-magazine gun.

 

AEG's don't come stamped or tagged with energy levels, and there's just no realistic scenario I can conceive of where a copper is going to say "Based on no reasonable belief, I'm going to seize that random AEG and test it."

[Prisce]

50 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

For the record, I work with the police doing intel, crime & custody systems and my experience has been that most coppers' legal knowledge tends to be decades out of date and largely picked up in the canteen rather than from any formal training regarding the law.

 

I understand there may have been a case of an HPA gun being seized recently, but that's a different kettle of fish since that is "readily convertible" to shoot at high energies, and it's obviously something different to a regular AEG or gas-magazine gun.

 

You obviously don't work with the coppers in north London! Considering at least two of the run Storm Tactical Airsoft, I'd say they have probably spoken to their colleagues about it, or have advised them just to ring them in case!

[Rogerborg]

Well, I don't work with all of them.  

 

My working principle is WWBD: What Would Barry Do.  "Barry" is a dedicated career constable who knows what he knows, and passes that on to raw recruits fresh out of Hendon via canteen widsom.

 

Barry mostly cares whether you're a right 'un, or a wrong 'un, and even then he's got so much to do that he'd rather not get tied up doing the paper/mouse work for yet another case.

 

Freementalist-on-the-Land delusions to the contrary, Barry is not that fussed about finding obscure offences to fit up Joe Public.  He's mostly interested in not fumbling the excruciating requirements of case management, dotting every i and crossing every t so that the CPS don't have an excuse to drop the ball on the real villains.

 

Treat Barry with respect and you'll get respect.  Barry is reasonable.  Barry is love.  Accept Barry into your heart and you shall be saved.

[gray134]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Wouldn't that argument apply to any airsoft gun? 

 

totally agree, just seems a bit vague in its wording in the bill

[kppr6]

Thanks for the replies,  yeh I prob got a bit panicky, I do not take it out of the house,  or even out of the display case much! I think on balance I will remove the spring,  without damaging it, in case I want to sell later. I think in future I will stick with the more expensive deacs, at least I know where I stand. Thanks again for the info.

[kppr6]

Hello, just thought I wud update my situation, I didnt want to sell my mp40 as I do not have the funds for a deac yet. I decided to destroy the mechanism,  snipped all the wires, drill holes in various mech bits, ripped out a small spring and finally poured contact adhesive in some sensitive looking parts,  I even super glued the mag in place, as I have said its in a cabinet on display. Do you think 'legally' I have covered myself? If not I may have to chop it up.  By the way sorry if it seems like sacrilege destroying a perfectly good gun, but my hobby is less about 'activity' and more about static display,  cheers again.

[simonh]

I really think you are worrying far to much about this - you would have been perfectly fine as you were without touching the gun at all.

[kppr6]

Thanks for that, I just wanted to make sure I wasnt breaking the law , especially now that umarex make a steel bb firer that I can own without any ifs or buts. On a personal note the uk gun laws seem like a minefield, I recently read that people who have served a jail term over xxxx amount cannot by law buy an air gun/rifle, as a an air rifle owner I know that all is required is id, like a driving licence for the purchase, so who would know?, I dont have any criminal convictions so why can I not have replica firearms as a collector,  why no collectors licence?  I can legally own deacs but the difference in price is sometimes prohibitive.  I realise that im prob on the wrong forum for my rant....airsoft is a sport....sticking guns in a cabinet is not, In saying that I feel that law abiding citizens with no criminal record in the uk should or could be licensed to own any air gun, bb, metal or plastic firer, replica and deac, it would make things simpler to understand. Real firearms are another matter, but licensing the 'look a likes' maybe a way fwd, you only have to look at some of the  some of the latest 'tactical air rifles' for sale for an example, anyway just my opinion. 

[Rogerborg]

You've already gone above and beyond what I'd consider necessary.

 

Guilty-with-defences is becoming an increasingly popular way to legislate, and I agree that it's infuriating for the law abiding.  However, there are so many ways to get a defence that it's not really a problem in practice.

[Tommikka]

17 hours ago, kppr6 said:

Thanks for that, I just wanted to make sure I wasnt breaking the law , especially now that umarex make a steel bb firer that I can own without any ifs or buts. On a personal note the uk gun laws seem like a minefield, I recently read that people who have served a jail term over xxxx amount cannot by law buy an air gun/rifle, as a an air rifle owner I know that all is required is id, like a driving licence for the purchase, so who would know?, I dont have any criminal convictions so why can I not have replica firearms as a collector,  why no collectors licence?  I can legally own deacs but the difference in price is sometimes prohibitive.  I realise that im prob on the wrong forum for my rant....airsoft is a sport....sticking guns in a cabinet is not, In saying that I feel that law abiding citizens with no criminal record in the uk should or could be licensed to own any air gun, bb, metal or plastic firer, replica and deac, it would make things simpler to understand. Real firearms are another matter, but licensing the 'look a likes' maybe a way fwd, you only have to look at some of the  some of the latest 'tactical air rifles' for sale for an example, anyway just my opinion. 

Real firearms are legal within the terms of the firearms acts, with the right licencing / certificate and storage etc 

 

Deactivated firearms to the correct standards are fully legal, and they are unaffected by the VCRA as they are real and not imitations

 

Air rifles are again fully legal and are allowed to look like ‘real firearms’ as they are real firearms as far as the firearms acts are concerned. Again unaffected by the VCRA because they are not imitations.

No licence for much of the UK - as long as it is in the right categories but the requirement for a firearms certificate has recently come in for Scotland 

 

As a collector for display you are unaffected by the VCRA if you have real deactivated firearms

You could also be unaffected for the appropriate historic firearms subject to the right fine print (eg there may be no restriction, or legal to possess what you have, but need to do something to pass it on)

Hence no collectors licence 

 

 

The VCRA does affect you with an air soft RIF.

Other than the power rating, the VCRA applies at the point of sale so it was irrelevant that you already posses it.

The VCRA does not have a RIF defence for collectors displays, partly because no one thought RIFs would be collectible - more likely deactivated firearms, and partly because no one felt that they would get involved with the legislative process for RIF collectors

Again - hence no collectors licence.  If you want one then get together and write to your MP to propose an amendment 

 

 

The airsoft retailers did get involved, which enabled the skirmishers defence and formed the UKARA process

 

Paintballs body the UKPSF chose not to get a paintball defence, and at that time it was a one man band of Steve Bull.  He could not justify a paintball RIF.

True MilSim paintball was a very tiny community using normal paintball guns, and a couple of them making excellent customs.  They opted for being a small quiet community

 

There were only about one or two true magfed guns by RAP4 and were intended for firearms training.  A tiny number were in the UK.  They formed RAP4UK and kept under the radar

With the increase of magfed paintball retailers went to the UKPSF and it was raised and approved by the Home Office - with a couple of suggestions indicating that it is felt that paintball RIFs are legal. But a court could decide on one of two things:

1) There is no such thing as a paintball RIF as they are low power air weapons with frangible projectiles, so only the Firearms acts apply

2) If a court decides the VCRA applies then UKPSF player membership and playing at insured sites could be accepted as the skirmisher defence 

 

Convicted criminals - they have lost some of their rights, and are explicitly prohibited from a number of things

the seller of an air rifle does not know the buyer is prohibited.  In this case the offence would be committed by the buyer

A career robber could keep their fake guns for robbery’s in a nice glass case on full view and the police could do nothing without catching them at it.

A retired criminal could store them in full

view for their friends

Just a couple of reasons, which can be irrelevant and ridiculous, but form some of the basis for their exclusion 

 

 

PS - airsoft isn’t a sport - it’s an activity

and to be fair, paintball is also not a sport but an activity.  Competitive Tournament paintball is /can be a sport but is an unrecognised sport as it doesn’t meet the formal sports definition criteria in the UK or elsewhere the world

 

Football is a sport, but kicking a ball around the garden is an activity