Cheeserush Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 As I think most people will agree the Trump victory was a shock to say the least! I'm curious as to what peoples opinions are on his victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Moderator Jedi_Master Posted November 9, 2016 Head Moderator Share Posted November 9, 2016 Was it really a shock victory? The media and polls fail to take into account issues that many citizens (the silent majority) care about and influence their vote. Considering the other candidate and after 8 years of a weak president/administration anything has to be better. Rather like Marmite, you either like or dislike it. Good luck to the President elect who will face difficulties to 'make America great again'. "America will no longer settle for anything less than the best. We must reclaim our country's destiny and dream big and bold and daring. We have to do that. We're going to dream of things for our country, and beautiful things and successful things once again." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacarathe Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 This is the outcome I expected, and but for the vacant, and soon to be vacant, supreme court seats i'd have been in support of this result. Hillary is so creepy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl_liverpool Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Good on him. Black eye for the political elite. I hope he does as he said and puts the power back in the peoples hands. Sadly that's lacking in Britain now since a court can over rule the will of the people here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacarathe Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Sadly that's lacking in Britain now since a court can over rule the will of the people here. You are joking right? That case has NOTHING to do with the will of the people, its only about reiterating the balance of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted November 9, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 9, 2016 Good on him. Black eye for the political elite. I hope he does as he said and puts the power back in the peoples hands. Sadly that's lacking in Britain now since a court can over rule the will of the people here. I think you'll find the court interpreted the LAW of this country as it's written in statute. The question asked of them was whether the govt can change British law without the permission of parliament - they can't. The will of the people is fucking irrelevant when it comes to matters of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl_liverpool Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Not kidding. Parliament is there to do the will of the people. But a court can over turn the democratic process and put full control into the hands of politicians to decide if article 50 is activated or not since parliament gets to vote before anything. My understanding is domacracy the government serve the people. Where was those same courts when our law making was handed to Brussels then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fumps Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 ***face palm*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacarathe Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Not kidding. Parliament is there to do the will of the people. But a court can over turn the democratic process and put full control into the hands of politicians to decide if article 50 is activated or not since parliament gets to vote before anything. My understanding is domacracy the government serve the people. Where was those same courts when our law making was handed to Brussels then? It sounds like you don't know what (or which country) you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Lozart Posted November 9, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 9, 2016 Aaaaaanyway, Trumps victory was no surprise to me. A disappointment, yes but no surprise. The mainstream media and wholesale polling system has missed the point that there is a huge, quiet movement towards a more right wing world. The people that voted for Trump didn't tell the opinion polls because they were afraid of being ridiculed for associating with the man being reviled in the press. Same as Tory voters here. I'm sure there was an amount of "oh, he'll never win, I don't need to bother" in some of the more traditionally blue states too. Young people seem to have made protest votes by woting for a third party which was basically a wasted vote in the end (as most protest votes usually are). There is a massive number of people in the US that are fed up with the system being pushed towards a progressive society, a welfare state or as they see it - Communism. They want a return to the traditional values of America, where you succeed by working hard and "living the dream", they blame the failing economy on the political and intellectual elite and they see Trump as a way of shaking up the system. I wonder how closely post succession America will start to resemble post Brexit Britain once his actual term starts and his policies (whatever they ACTUALLY are) start making their presence felt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted November 9, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 9, 2016 To be honest - I did suspect the same - many saying jack but voting Trump at the actual polls (interesting that most "expert polls" where about 2% out of whack towards Trump in the end) I think who ever got to be POTUS will find it all crashes next year The US Dollar is way too strong - not just against the £ but against Euro & most currencies So the US trade deficit is going to increase meaning people will buy cheap imports until big duties/tax are placed on trade and less US exports coz stuff is too expensive blah blah blah..... Trade & Tourism economy will suffer/improve - impossible to keep it all balanced as way too many other world factors are involved We are heading for a crash next year or 2018 - it is just the way it goes in peaks/troughs in 8-10 year cycles I just think all the heavyweights money stars Wall St etc... behind Hilary and still she lost She won't get sent down, running the country is going to be more important and tbh if she goes down Trump isn't so innocent either Very shocked she couldn't face her supporters and sent a messenger to tell them to go home - jeeez maybe she had a bad turn/cough again ? Think the world is in for a bumpy ride - this would likely to happen with or without Brexit Trump or any other crap hitting the fan Think the world is starting to think rightly or wrongly - f*ck it, it don't seem to be so rosey lets try something else 2016 will be remembered as the year politics got a big kick up the ar$e Let us just hope them countries didn't kick themselves in the bollocks Only time will tell as the world is left with little option but to suck it & see how it all pans out Final thought - If Tony Blair became a useless Peace Envoy for the Middle East..... FFS don't think of sending over Nigel Farage to help with world peace negotiations - jeeeeeeeeez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted November 9, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 9, 2016 Not kidding. Parliament is there to do the will of the people. But a court can over turn the democratic process and put full control into the hands of politicians to decide if article 50 is activated or not since parliament gets to vote before anything. My understanding is domacracy the government serve the people. Where was those same courts when our law making was handed to Brussels then? I suggest you spend less time reading the sun/express/mail and more time reading about how BRITISH LAW and BRITISH PARLIAMENT and BRITISH PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY actually work. You seem confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottledtorment Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 I suggest you spend less time reading the sun/express/mail and more time reading about how BRITISH LAW and BRITISH PARLIAMENT and BRITISH PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY actually work. You seem confused. JC are you a wizard ?? You're half an hour ahead!? Edit, it says 9:54 on the original post.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted November 9, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 9, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Esoterick Posted November 9, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 9, 2016 I don't know why some people are under the illusion that politicians are going to suddenly start caring about people they supposedly represent(with the odd exception). Trump is a failed businessman who has only really been successful suing people. He will make sure he looks after his wealthy friends first with everyone else as an afterthought, just like UK government past and present, regardless of our EU membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl_liverpool Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I suggest you spend less time reading the sun/express/mail and more time reading about how BRITISH LAW and BRITISH PARLIAMENT and BRITISH PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY actually work. You seem confused. for one i don't read papers or watch BBC or sky news. They only tell u what they want u to know. But i do understand what the magna carta gave the people of Britain in the way of democracy and powers given to the people. One of which is the government and ministers are there to represent their constituents and to do their best to improve their constituency for the people. My original point which was about the courts over ruling a public vote. I what ay would invoking article 50 be changing laws? The argument above states the judges decision is about changing laws which it wasn't it was about implementing article 50. And judges decided parliament has the final say on that matter. Nothing to do with laws. Watch john Harris its an illusion and u will understand where I'm coming from with the double speak and slight of hand that is done to people daily. The law system using multiple meaning for word used and they all hold power its a language called legalese. Any solicitors on here will know the oath taken is first and foremost to protect the crown and the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted November 10, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 10, 2016 Ahhh damn it.... you lot have been spared just typed a big long War & Peace epic but lost it when laptop decided to throw a wobbly (you have been spared I guessed) Basically PM said Parliament will get to vote/approve the details on leaving EU But triggering Article 50 is merely the start of negotiations to leave the EU So starting the process should not require Parliament's approval as UK can not just leave the day #50 is triggered #50 is merely just notifying the EU a member wishes to leave.... There is a lot of work & subject to approval/signing/terms before a member can finally leave & 2 years is merely a guideline (can be less or can be extended) Article 50 does not require approval by Parliament as it is not a final act or action on its own otherwise we would be withdrawing from the EU upon triggering Article 50 - which is not the case All EU laws remain in place blah blah blah, any changes AFTER we leave EU will be subject to Parliament approval blah x 3 Kind of daft & Gina Miller or People's Challenge is a front for the 1200+ CEO's & rich elite trying to delay or attempt to halt leaving EU I can go on with other matters but PM has said Parliament will vote on the final terms we leave the EU This is same as when Parliament passed the Acts for Scotland, Wales Acts & Good Friday Agreement But triggering #50 is merely just the START of negotiations to leave the EU on its own it does not pull UK straight out of EU with immediate effect with no further approval required Therefore it should not need Parliament's approval...... That is why the court's decision is to be taken to the Supreme High Court funny as before that, The House of Lords was the highest place to hold appeals Bloody mess and more people getting involved - mainly lawyers just making a fortune trying to prolong the inevitable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted November 10, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 10, 2016 ahh sod politics - I'm leaving it to the "experts".... I mean - what's the worse that can happen........... yup think I'm done on all this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infanteer Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I am very happy Trump won but I was also elated Obama won, didn't see all the change I was expecting when that happened and I had high hopes but as someone wisely pointed out above, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I am really hoping Trump shakes things up but time will tell. I don't think Hilary will go down either, people are saying lock her up, I don't like her one bit but she is still entitled to due process and a legitimate/fair trial. The leading elite are so out of touch with people, the internet is a god send and a lot of people are starting to wake up. The reason Hilary I believe did not make an appearance straight away is that she was hit for six, she clearly was not expecting to be beaten, much less by so wide a gap in the electoral college votes. She probably sat in that hotel room shocked before having a massive out pour of emotion.Hilary in my humble opinion was the worst of the two choices and yes Trump has said some pretty stupid s$%T but if I was there I would have voted for him. It is my hope that Trump will surround himself with politicians who have a clue and can advise him accordingly. I have some libertarian views but the movement over there short of Ron Paul is in my opinion not worth voting for and they don't have the numbers. I voted for a third party back home in Australia and the only reason I feel it wasn't a waste of a vote was because I had lost faith in my own political party that I normally support. The party I voted for did not win one seat. Lozart was bang on with his analysis above. It is nice to see people discussing it without personal attacks. I've lost 7 facebook "friends" in the last 24 hrs and copped abuse from breakfast to @ssh0le. Oh well, no big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundel91 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 End of the day hes got it. Whether you wanted him or hilary to win is irrelevant now. I just hope that when hes sworn in he wont be the total disgusting excuse of a person that hes been made out to be during the campaign. As a serving person in HM armed forces ill be very interested to see how things pan out on the world stage and how he will respond. Could be for the better, could be for the worse. Still wont keep my hopes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacarathe Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 <snip> Article 50 does not require approval by Parliament as it is not a final act or action on its own otherwise we would be withdrawing from the EU upon triggering Article 50 <snip> I can go on with other matters but PM has said Parliament will vote on the final terms we leave the EU This is same as when Parliament passed the Acts for Scotland, Wales Acts & Good Friday Agreement But triggering #50 is merely just the START of negotiations to leave the EU on its own it does not pull UK straight out of EU with immediate effect with no further approval required Therefore it should not need Parliament's approval...... <snip> This is not correct. The current issue is with "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted November 10, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 10, 2016 This is not correct. how exactly - so if #50 gets triggered we can leave straight away if we accept WTO terms brilliant - that will save us some dosh & time messing about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacarathe Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 This is not correct. The current issue is with "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." how exactly - so if #50 gets triggered we can leave straight away if we accept WTO terms brilliant - that will save us some dosh & time messing about We can only trigger the article in accordance with our constitution, as per the article itself. The residual powers of the monarch, the royal prerogative wielded by the GOVT, does not have the authority to repeal an act of parliament, this is particularly so of constitutional acts, even though they can enter into and out of treaties with these powers. Until we establish what our constitutional requirements are: Art50 cannot be triggered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted November 10, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 10, 2016 In addition, leaving the EU will mean re writing EVERY piece of law that mentions the EU. Triggering article 50 will make that inevitable, ergo triggering article 50 results in the change of laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted November 10, 2016 Supporters Share Posted November 10, 2016 The current issue is with "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." Yup had seen that - though EU & our own Parliament paper kept referring to the "Government" to trigger blah x 3 (Parliament & Government are not the same) Government is HoC which is the MP's lead by PM blah blah blah..... but yes according to its own blah blah blah We can only trigger the article in accordance with our constitution, as per the article itself. The residual powers of the monarch, the royal prerogative wielded by the GOVT, does not have the authority to repeal an act of parliament, this is particularly so of constitutional acts, even though they can enter into and out of treaties with these powers. Until we establish what our constitutional requirements are: Art50 cannot be triggered. That as I said is where the confusion or interpretation comes into play..... by simply triggering #50 it is NOT repealing any laws - merely instructing EU of their intention to leave No acts will be repealed on just triggering #50 alone only by agreement on both houses can we repeal any acts #50 is more like getting down on one knee to propose - but no date or signing of register, let alone writing speeches or venue bookings (actually #50 is more starting a divorce process so #50 might be like booking a RELATE appointment perhaps - no solicitors instructed yet) In addition, leaving the EU will mean re writing EVERY piece of law that mentions the EU. Triggering article 50 will make that inevitable, ergo triggering article 50 results in the change of laws. No - EU laws will remain as we leave the EU and will be amended as & when but voted by Parliament on any of these amendments Government already stated that and Fishermen want the EU fishing rights amended asap but nothing will change until after we officially leave EU Article 50 will not do anything but officially inform the EU of UK's wish to leave it Then & only then can discussions begin it is a chicken & egg or egg & chicken scenario about negotiations that EU will not enter into until we place in writing our intention to leave That is all #50 is on its own it is just our formal notification that we wish to leave the EU and nothing more Yes the EU states this n that and UK can not be involved in negotiations but all EU rules apply during the 2 year period and membership fees and loads of other stuff blah blah blah But even the EU doesn't even fully know wtf they are doing coz nobody has triggered Article 50 before Plus even if EU proposes a deal on terms agreed by 27/28 members and Parliament is happy too it can still be veto'd by EU Parliament Just recently Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams said he won't vote or block negotiations on #50 it is more the final repeal of acts that government/lords/parliament will decide upon on departing the EU Just like the absolute bottom line of repealing the the '72 European Act will require Parliament to repeal #50 notifies the EU we wish to leave and compels the EU to seek a negotiation UK can choose an outright hard "stick it up your ar$e" brexit on wto terms - still requiring parliament or repeal the '72 act with parliament It is all a little unclear to be honest, we are trying to conduct this matter in the best way but Government can't reveal its hand it hasn't got a full hand yet coz not all cards have been dealt yet we can't announce what we might stick on 16 or 17 at the table so everybody knows our bottom line otherwise it will hardly be worth playing and lets just fold up and repeal '72 act Look I really don't know - tbh I doubt if anybody really knows how it will play out Government is pi$$ed coz it had to pick up the pieces when Cameron jumped ship Corbyn threatens to vote against anything prior to triggering #50 if he doesn't get his way Funny the bloke wanted #50 to be triggered straight away in June ??? 49 SNP MP's wanted to deny the people to hold the referendum in first place - funny they want another one for scotland ??? The other 10 include that weirdo dodgy Keith Vaz + 5 other Labour MP's, 1 Plaid Cymru & 3 N Ireland voted no to hold referendum Clegg & Milliband didn't even vote for/against holding a referendum - sorry but if you don't vote then don't moan about result ffs Anybody wonder why we should let these MP's & HoL decide on just triggering #50 Gina originally moaned about her business being effected that her clients that invest a min £250,000 may find it difficult Sorry I don't feel any of the others are interested in anything but themselves when they try to defend democracy or sovereignty but hey ho there ya go - that is politics I guess..... Not wishing to fall out with anybody over this coz really don't think us low lives really know doubt if anybody really knows but we shall see....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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