Two Tone questions

[WillHaigh]

Hi all, I have a few questions about Two Tone IF's!

 

First of all, I've read that an under 18 can legally own a IF only if it has been gifted by an adult? This being true, I have a dilema;

 

No one is eligble for a UKARA membership that would be willing to gift me an IF, however my dad once purchased me a paintball gun, along with the other parts of the setup. This still legally being his, is it plausible that he/I could sell this and get the gun gifted to ny through my dad if this makes sense to anyone?

 

Seeing as the gun is legally his, and therefore any money produced from the selling of it would he his?

 

If anyone could clear this up I'd be very happy

 

Thanks

[b1n0gHo5t]

Hi all, I have a few questions about Two Tone IF's!

 

First of all, I've read that an under 18 can legally own a IF only if it has been gifted by an adult? This being true, I have a dilema;

 

No one is eligble for a UKARA membership that would be willing to gift me an IF, however my dad once purchased me a paintball gun, along with the other parts of the setup. This still legally being his, is it plausible that he/I could sell this and get the gun gifted to ny through my dad if this makes sense to anyone?

 

Seeing as the gun is legally his, and therefore any money produced from the selling of it would he his?

 

If anyone could clear this up I'd be very happy

 

Thanks

You don't need Ukara to buy Two toned airsoft guns

[Airsoft_Mr B]

Since a paintball gun isn't a realistic imitation firearm, you'd still need a defence to buy an airsoft gun (that isn't two-toned)

Anyone over 18 can buy a two tone airsoft gun. Also, when you go to a skirmish, you could cover up those parts with camo tape (just you should take it off before you leave) In theory, you could get a new handguard / stock or whatever parts are painted and replace them for the day (but again as long as you took these parts off and put the two-tone things back on again after)

 

My dad has UKARA and has bought guns for both of us (no money is supposed to be change hands)

So my understanding was that they were still his, and I was simply borrowing them when he 'gifted' them to me. However I was told by people on this forum they are actually mine, despite the fact I'm under 18 and don't have my own UKARA defence (well apparently I do actually due to a slight cock up and it says I'm 43 or something...anyway...that's another story)

 

Hope that didn't confuse you even more

Basically the first paragraph is the important one

[WillHaigh]

So aslong as the money used to purchase the IF is his there is no problem with me owning an IF?

[Chock]

Nope, there is no problem in you owning a two toned airsoft gun at all, the problem is with purchasing one where the retailer asks if you are over eighteen (as they should). And to be frank, a lot of the notion of money changing hands so someone over eighteen hands over the cash and 'gifts it to you', can simply be a 'paper exercise' to stay within the letter of the law. After all, the police are hardly going to get an injunction to view bank transactions to find out whether you gave your dad some money from a paper round or whatever so that he could pay for an airsoft gun, so long as you aren't a dick with the thing and do actually use it for airsoft skirmishes. The Police have far more important people to chase, what with their limited manpower and resources, such as drug dealers, bank robbers and terrorists, who are certainly not going to fret about whether they qualify for a UKARA database registration. Of course nobody can be seen to admit that this is the case, but we'd have to be very naive indeed to imagine that sort of thing does not go on.

 

Remember, the laws are intended to to stop violent crime, not to stop people having fun, so just behave responsibly and there will be no issue. That's why they called it the Violent Crime Reduction Act and not the Miserable Pedants Stopping People Having Fun Responsibly Act.

[WillHaigh]

Thanks all! Really helpful and I got the answers I was after, just got to wait till after Christmas now!

[Josh95]

Just remember that your dad has to have a UKARA regardless, this means he will have to play 3 airsoft skirmishes.

[Mack]

Just remember that your dad has to have a UKARA regardless, this means he will have to play 3 airsoft skirmishes.

 

No

[Josh95]

Doesnt matter if he is an adult or not, you cant buy a RIF without a UKARA.... unless youre asking if you can just buy a two tone? thought that was fairly obvious...

[Mack]

Doesnt matter if he is an adult or not, you cant buy a RIF without a UKARA.... unless youre asking if you can just buy a two tone? thought that was fairly obvious...

 

Wrong again.

[Deek]

The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006:

Section 40 of the VCRA amends Section 24 of the Firearms Act 1968 ( http://www.legislati...tation-firearms );

40 Supplying imitation firearms to minors

(1)After section 24 of the 1968 Act insert—

“24A Supplying imitation firearms to minors

(1)It is an offence for a person under the age of eighteen to purchase an imitation firearm.

(2)It is an offence to sell an imitation firearm to a person under the age of eighteen.

(3)In proceedings for an offence under subsection (2) it is a defence to show that the person charged with the offence—

(a)believed the other person to be aged eighteen or over; and

(b)had reasonable ground for that belief."

This makes it an offence for a person under 18 years of age to purchase an imitation firearm, so an under 18 cannot buy a two-tone IF. However, it does not stop a person gifting an IF to a person under the age of 18.

The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Commencement No 3) Order 2007: ( https://www.gov.uk/g...rearms-measures ) makes reference to airsoft as a specific defence, but does not state that a person needs UKARA registration as a defence. In fact, the Commencement Order actually makes reference to the Association of British Airsofters, which I believe is now defunct.

So, to recap:

Under 18's cannot buy an imitation firearm, but can have one gifted (gifting means you cannot do or give something in return).

You do not need UKARA to prove a defence in law, but it is the easiest and most common method of providing a defence.

[Ian_Gere]

Doesnt matter if he is an adult or not, you cant buy a RIF without a UKARA.... unless youre asking if you can just buy a two tone? thought that was fairly obvious...

Hi all, I have a few questions about Two Tone IF's!

The first thing he fucking wrote. I just can't even be arsed to find a facepalm jpeg...

[Deek]

Just for you Ian...

 

[Chock]

Doesnt matter if he is an adult or not, you cant buy a RIF without a UKARA.... unless youre asking if you can just buy a two tone? thought that was fairly obvious...

 

Can we please stop putting this kind of erroneous information out there? UKARA is not some sort of 'license' to buy or own a realistic imitation firearm; you absolutely do not need a UKARA to buy a RIF, UKARA is merely a convenient way for a retailer to establish that you have a reason for buying a RIF, so in the absence of you having a UKARA number, all you actually need is the ability to prove that you have a legitimate reason for wanting to own one, nothing more. And even this is not part of the law, it is simply so that if you subsequently flip out and rob a bank with your RIF, or indulge in some other nefarious deed with it, the shop which sold it to you can legitimately claim that they sold it to you with good reason, thus removing the possibility of them being prosecuted for aiding you in the crime, because the Act of Parliament which covers this matter is the Violent Crimes Reduction Act, i.e. it is intended to reduce the likelihood of, and the means to acquire the necessary equipment to, commit a violent crime. If you can convince a retailer that you have some other legitimate reason for wanting to purchase a RIF, one which would also provide them with a suitable line of defence should the police subsequently question the retailer on why they sold a RIF to someone, then they will sell you a RIF without you having a UKARA number. If this was not the case, then you'd have special effects departments, prop buyers, museums etc having to send some member of staff to three airsoft events just so they could go about their legitimate business. Yes, UKARA is a convenient system for airsofters and retailers, but it is in no way the law, nor is it the only means by which you can prove your legitimate reason for wanting to purchase a RIF.

 

So if I walked into an airsoft shop and showed them my ID for Soho Editors - which is the movie CGI post production special effects company I work for - and told them that I needed a realistic looking M60 machine gun so I could show the effects department at Pinewood Studios how to CGI muzzle flashes, an ammo belt feeding shells, and the empty cases ejecting, from a machine gun for the Vietnam War Movie they were making, then that absolutely is a legitimate reason for wanting to buy and own a RIF and that reasoning also covers me for spray painting toy guns black, moulding rubber prop guns etc, etc, because I have a genuine and legitimate reason for doing so, and this is regardless of the fact that I do have a UKARA number. The Violent Crimes Reduction Act goes into some detail on this matter, giving specific examples of legitimacy, such as the aforementioned movie and theatre production, museum work, historical re-enactments, educational purposes, etc. Similarly, if you go to an airsoft site regularly, the staff there will know you, so if they have a shop at their site, they would likely sell you a RIF regardless of whether you had applied for a UKARA number or not, because they would be able to prove that you are an airsofter simply by virtue of you having attended their site numerous times, and would have a record of you having done so.

 

UKARA is not a licence, is not a part of the UK's legislation on firearms, is not compulsory for airsofters, is not even mentioned anywhere in the VCR Act - since it came into being after the VCR Act - and is absolutely not a requirement for anyone who owns or wants to own a replica/realistic looking imitation firearm. If it was, you would be applying for it at a Police Station and not at some airsoft site or airsoft shop. It probably is worth getting a UKARA registration if you are an airsofter simply for the convenience of confirming your legitimacy to a retailer, especially if you want to buy from abroad, but that is merely a convenience and is in no way mandatory.

[BrightCandle]

While UKARA isn't required you do need a suitable defence. The laws commencement order does specifically refer to the UKARA scheme actually and it also outlines particular permissable activities. While UKARA isn't required, its not a licence, it is neitherless the easiest way to get a RIF. There are just too many people trying to get around it or looking for ways to skirt the actual law and we should not be encouraging that behaviour at all. Its fairly simple but really you need to be 18 years or old and a legitimate airsofter to own a RIF and that fact isn't going to disappear because some people want it to.

[Josh95]

sure there are loop holes if you want to be smart arses. I don't really care.... UKARA is the safest and most recognised defence..

[Chock]

The VCR's Commencement Order makes no mention the UKARA scheme. What it actually mentions is the following:

 

For airsoft skirmishing, the Association of British Airsoft is putting in place arrangements to allow retailers to check that individual purchasers are members of a genuine skirmishing club or site. The key elements of these arrangements are:

• new players must play at least three times in a period of not less than two months the two months before being offered membership
• membership cards with a photograph and recognized format will be issued for production to retailers
• a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a purchaser’s details
• a member’s entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12 months.

1. The defence for airsoft skirmishing can apply to individual players because their purchase of realistic imitation firearms for this purpose is considered part of the “holding” of a skirmishing event

Whilst this mention in the VCR Act's Commencement Order is similar to what eventually became the UKARA scheme, it is quite evidently not the UKARA scheme. The most notable difference is the 'membership cards with a photograph and recognised format will be issued'. Have you got one of these? Nope, neither have I, and I am most definitely UKARA registered. Good luck finding 'The Association of British Airsoft' too, because as far as I'm aware, the organisation does not exist. It did do at one point, but no longer does as far as I can tell. The UKARA registration database, as its acronym suggests, is run by the United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association.

[Mack]

While UKARA isn't required you do need a suitable defence. The laws commencement order does specifically refer to the UKARA scheme actually and it also outlines particular permissable activities. While UKARA isn't required, its not a licence, it is neitherless the easiest way to get a RIF. There are just too many people trying to get around it or looking for ways to skirt the actual law and we should not be encouraging that behaviour at all. Its fairly simple but really you need to be 18 years or old and a legitimate airsofter to own a RIF and that fact isn't going to disappear because some people want it to.

 

Still wrong. You don't need to be anything to own a RIF!!!!!! There are no laws on owning, only selling, manufacturing and importing

[Mack]

sure there are loop holes if you want to be smart arses. I don't really care.... UKARA is the safest and most recognised defence..

The other defences aren't loopholes. How do you know UKARA is the safest compared to say a film producer? It's never been tested in court and tbh probably never will.

 

Edit: and no one is being smart asses either, just sick to shit of people who haven't a clue what they are talking about stating Facts that are simply not true

[Josh95]

Ok its true, I am fairly new to the subject.

However Im just giving my verdict from my own experiences not articles I have found online...

 

My local airsoft retailer required me to have a UKARA, all the online retailers I have seen require a UKARA number thus my verdict... you need a UKARA.

[Ian_Gere]

Similarly, if you go to an airsoft site regularly, the staff there will know you, so if they have a shop at their site, they would likely sell you a RIF regardless of whether you had applied for a UKARA number or not, because they would be able to prove that you are an airsofter simply by virtue of you having attended their site numerous times, and would have a record of you having done so.

I'm pretty sure that part of the UKARA Charter is that those who belong to it will not sell to airsofters unless they have a number (of the beast lol), but many sites who also sell guns are not actually members of UKARA as retailers, just as sites... There are quite a few hoops to jump through in order to become a UKARA registered retailer*, for instance you must have retail premises and they do not count even well established site shops, with permanent storage facilities, as "retail premises". So we have the likes of JBBG on the UKARA board, making money hand over fist selling orange tat to unsuspecting noobs, while committed airsofters running sites and trying to make guns available to their members at low prices (for the UK) can't get a look in...

 

*Which is no bad thing on the face of it, as preventing any old Tom, Dick, or Real Dick from setting up in business selling RIF's at car boot sales to kids and disappearing before the dust settles is part of the purpose of the VCRA. But UKARA has gone far beyond that and, like every trade organisation which has ever existed, is doing its best to act as close to a cartel as they can get away with, minimising competition from anyone else.

 

Still, thankfully there are importers, middle men, who will sell to non-UKARA retailers such as site shops, so you may find that your local site will sell to you without a UKARA number, but what I mostly hear is that sites are allowing people to pay for a gun and use it at the site but not actually take possession of it and take it home until their UKARA player's registration comes through.

 

UKARA is not a licence, is not a part of the UK's legislation on firearms, is not compulsory for airsofters, is not even mentioned anywhere in the VCR Act - since it came into being after the VCR Act - and is absolutely not a requirement for anyone who owns or wants to own a replica/realistic looking imitation firearm. If it was, you would be applying for it at a Police Station and not at some airsoft site or airsoft shop. It probably is worth getting a UKARA registration if you are an airsofter simply for the convenience of confirming your legitimacy to a retailer, especially if you want to buy from abroad, but that is merely a convenience and is in no way mandatory.

Well said.