Tommikka

Everything that you read or are told regarding legislation is subject to interpretation, even reading the words directly from legislation is subject to your personal interpretation …. And you need more than just the legislation itself….. if you read the VCRA itself there is no defence that permits airsofters to have RIFs, but there is a provision for additional defences via statutory instrument and one such document exists for airsoft skirmishing On a fine point myself and @Rogerborghave agreed to disagree for some considerable time, but a case has occurred, the results of the case match his interpretation therefore we can still happily disagree on our personal interpretations but the case disagrees with me. My interpretation is now wrong - unless a subsequent case occurs and the lawyers can prove that the circusmtances differ sufficiently to tip the interpretation over The black belt barrister is a barrister, and whenever he interprets the law he makes the statement that he is making a general interpretation on the basis of his opinion and not giving legal advice. If you employ him and provide your circumstances then he will give legal advice (unless he does not feel able to) In my subject area of paintball I do own guns that would meet the definition of RIF, and I have both bought & modified them. Back in the day that the VCRA was a bill the airsoft industry got involved and the UKARA was born, paintballs UKPSF were well established as a body dealing with the Home Office. Justifying paintball RIFs were not something worth fighting for and the Home Office, police etc were not interested. Paintball never gained a defence, but it was put in writing that air / co2 propelled paintball guns were air weapons, which meant they were firearms, but with energy below 12 ft lbs (or 6 ft lbs where applicable) they were low power air weapons which provided they were used with frangible paintballs their ‘lethality’ is fine for shooting each other. As air weapons are firearms then they aren’t imitation firearms, and therefore can neither be an IF or a RIF. (But as mentioned above where I and Rogerborg agree to disagree - case law now shows that a firearm can now be interpreted as an imitation firearm) All fine and nothing to worry about ….. except for a little hiccup when a company received a study visit from the Association of Chief Police officers - the company were told it’s fine, but word for word interpretation might cover black paintball guns as RIFs, and there is no defence for paintball. The study group gave feedback that they were not going to act upon that interpretation, but recommended the company should ‘do something about it’ like VCRA. So they did, and produced a short lived membership scheme. No action ever occurred I used my UKPSF membership as part of an import declaration - I declared that the package was not a RIF, but here are my UKPSF details and it’s my intent to use the contents at scenario paintball events - who knows if they accepted my ‘defence’ or just stopped at ‘no it’s not a RIF’? Now to the last few years. People are trying to buy ‘self defence’ / ‘home defence’ versions of paintball guns, which are over powered and get used with non frangible balls. Some are flagged by retailers / importers and sales are refused, others try for direct import and are found by customs and/or incidents occur and the police find them on the street, in beside drawers etc loaded and aired up etc (some threads on here may reflect some of these occurrences) The UKPSF get contacted by the Home Office/ police / border force & customs They remain content with paintball but are not happy with these items - the UKPSF have a rethink on relying on the old Home Office interpretation on the frangible / lethality clause and commissions legal review - this recommends not relying on the clause but does come up with arguments that the ‘intention’ of the law could go for UKPSF membership and ‘skirmishing’ albeit that the special instrument covers airsoft skirmishing Things are afoot in the UK paintball industry and sphincters twitch - a case would give us the answer, but may or may not give the answer we want The non compliance of two tone colours fits in ( or just the amount of cover but also the colours themselves which should be bright) - but they’ve not followed the spirit of the law but just paid it lip service (whereas JustCos is just a made up situation with no intent to comply - the comicon that tied to the JustCos insurance does not permit RIFs with cosplay) Again a case would answer, but no one wants to be the test case As a general rule in life always treat advice / information on its own merits The legal areas on this forum have good information, but they are the opinion/interpretation of the poster at that time Direct legislation quotes are just that - direct quotes, which still needs interpretation against circumstances and also is very likely to miss out the other sections, other pieces of legislation and any case law Don’t be a dick, don’t get caught being a dick and don’t be a test case

Sounds like the kind of thread I’d like …. Rate my sidearm / boot combo

It’s the fine print, so can look contradictory You don’t require any UKARA membership or special status to sell But as seller it is you who are responsible under the VCRA - which means you the seller are responsible for ensuring that they have a valid VCRA ‘defence’ being their purpose for buying a RIF The buyer has no legal responsibility under the VCRA, but a seller should only sell to a buyer under one of the VCRA defences Cosplay is not a defence, but there is a dodgy cosplay insurance that a retailer put together UKARA is a defence, which a buyer may have. Anything else that they can present to you which you are willing to accept that they are an airsoft player will do - it’s unlikely but it someone caught a dickhead, told the police it was bought from you and a prosecution takes place then you may have to present your case as to why you reasonably believed they are an airsofter intending to play on an insured site Other defences exist such as museum, theatrical TV & film (but not YouTube prankster)

No problem - you don’t require anything as the seller of a RIF

Not much practical use, other than as an event prop (or a publicity piece), a ‘ship’ is among the easy things to build on a site (which of course wouldn’t be a floaty thing) That kind of rate of fire is no good for customers to be up against, but an automated system that fires bursts gives a difficult opposition with an objective to achieve We’ve had our own at our events, hired out to other events and featured on TV. You can pit an MTV presenter up against one before they up themselves to B list ‘celebrity’ or generic players can fall into a puddle

I can access it! (Status is ‘under review’) Though my access is to BS EN168:2002 which also has pages marked EN168:2001 …… and of course the impact testing paragraphs 3 & 9 refer to EN166 ….. Just in case a copy of EN168 is out there somewhere it’s a 36 page document

There is a copy of the EN1731:2006 here, which with a rough scan of the ‘latest’ withdrawn copy on British Standards looks to match up (other than the odd foreign language header pages and being marked EN1731 rather than BS EN1731) https://zakon.isu.net.ua/sites/default/files/normdocs/3036af055d884208ad411a4bdbf3111f.pdf

UKARA is a national register of participating site memberships. The original signup criteria for UKARA is based upon the recommendations made while the scheme was being formulated under the VCR bill consulting process. Its up to sites how they renew membership, and as RIF sales are what players are really after from UKARA it’s perfectly reasonable to only renew someone who has actually played. Playing once at a site is a reasonable requirement to show that you’re a skirmisher. The alternative is to start again with the 3 games process It would not be complying with the principles of UKARA as a VCRA Defence to renew membership of someone who isn’t playing

As with the other posters a ‘Defence’ is required under the VCRA for the sale of RIFs but the definition of ‘defence’ in the act isn’t necessarily the English language definition As a seller it is you that has responsibilities under the act, and in the rare possibility that you could find yourself in court you would need to (English language definition) defend that you reasonably believed the buyers intended use fell within the VCRA defined defences. It is not a legal requirement for the buyer to have a valid UKARA number. Only the various purposes quoted above. If you can show that you reasonably believed that the buyer intended to play on an insured skirmish site and is aged over 18 then you are legal The ideal is to ask for UKARA details (if you can check them of course), but their social media account full of airsofting photos, or an established member of this forum would be good enough A social media account full of chav posing outside the off licence would not be considered ideal

If they are that sensitive then they can just not offer a two tone service. (Either at all or against particular RIFs) Airsoft and airsoft retailers would not exist in the UK without the VCRA two tone IF exemption This ‘sensitivity’ is similar to collectors thoughts over Sci Fi / geeky collectibles etc. At a comicon this weekend we had a conversation with another trader/collector, he is very happy when he sells an item to a child or someone that will open the box - supply & demand. New ‘collectibles’ will remain worthless if everyone locks them away in glass cabinets and in attics waiting to get rich. Old ‘collectables’ appreciate in value every time one gets used and depreciate in value everytime a widow advertises a complete collection. I know a collector/trader in Pops figures. He tells me that he isnt speaking to me, but he clearly is otherwise he couldn’t keep telling me that he isn’t speaking to me. I bought a rare set of Pops figures with a vehicle, dismantled the vehicle and mounted them on an RC chassis. There were tears in his eyes. He should be thanking me for increasing the value of the rest of them A retailed two tone IF is an entry point for new player, it expands the market. Many can easily be returned to RIF status at a later date

It will depend on the forum software and the moderators configuration From a search of my email notifications and a scan of my notifications settings in forums that I moderate/have moderated it’s a no. The emails have notifications based on my settings but not moderation ones (or at least not in the email titles that I’ve scanned through) My user settings for notifications don’t include moderation ‘events’ (but I do have them set on a few ‘events’ that are common flags for moderation needs) The forum software does have moderation menus which include the standard actions and also flags the reports. I would also expect a pop up alert message on log on So I wouldn’t be expecting a moderating email prompting me to sign in, but could be getting emails based on my settings which could indicate a need. Plus if someone chose to message me directly knowing I’m a moderator then I’d get an alert email to check messages …. But I don’t expect that the reports queue / message a mod group etc are on email alerts (for those that I’m in) My moderating process would follow a similar manner to my general forum process - sign in, see any alerts, check the new threads/post lists

The real answer is just moderators, ideally with a range of lifestyles and forum obsession to cover the late night / early hours spamming that is more likely to get through Anti bot sign up methods all get beaten somehow. Many questions have the answer in the question, therefore a bit of AI can often identify the answer or at least learn from failures. If the forum locks out x number of fails then the bot just needs to report back it’s failures for another to try, or put the question to a human and then the answer can be shared around Captcha Am I a robot text images worked for a while until AI could learn to read them (Bearing in mind back in the late 80s/early 90s as a student I did a site visit to see an international distributors handwriting recognition system, which they didn’t call AI but the system was learning to read & guess hand written forms with two clerks each confirming / correcting every guess The picture Captchas aren’t really checking that you get the answer right, but measure your mouse movements. A bot would have been expected to be efficient and a human to be wobbly. But AI bots can learn to act like a human with ‘randomised’ hesitation and wobble (But don’t worry too much about AI taking over the world, ask ChatGPT who the prime minister is, correct their answer and see what response you get) Post filtering, automated report handling etc are a pain in the arse. They will probably harass more human members then bots, and become a denial of service attack on a forum member that someone doesn’t like. Some of these can be configured into forum software fairly easily and others are likely to be much more effort than some semi willing voluntolds The recent spam may look like a lot and is frustrating for the viewer. Moderators and the software could be successfully smiting more before it gets through…… On one forum a few years ago went through a couple of days of constant denial of service spam bot attacks, and at times we were blocking each other out of the forum with IP range blocking ….. a lot of SMS & emails were circulating to find a moderator who could still get in and green light friendly ranges to allow the rest of us back in

You don’t know me very well if you need to ask

How about a paintballing airsoft moderator ???

There is a possible angle on the wording that you have given. eg You have a YouTube channel, intend to run a guide to airsoft, but are an airsofter who is asking about elements of airsoft that you have little to no knowledge in with the plan to give that as a guide to others. Asking on a forum about those areas could result in you giving a ‘guide’ based on second hand opinion. However, if you were to say theme it as an airsoft journey then you can cover your time in airsoft, starting with your first rental, your own purchases. Pros and cons of what you have etc, your subsequent games, what went well & less well. A problem with “what do you wish you knew from the start?” Is that if you went back in time to begin again knowing that thing, would it bring you the same knowledge ? Would it be a learned experience or just the clinical ‘fact’?

Yes - rentals do mean you need a business You can have a club element, but there’s no benefit to the way of running ….. and of course the unknown element of random rentals off the street is a whole different ball game of consensual ‘player marshalling’ Run it properly There are some fun ways of avoiding / minimising business rates

Not for the running side (as dickheads will be dickheads) and what I would consider a ‘well run’ site should be on a business basis. If an airsoft site is basically a local club for the local airsoft regulalars then why couldn’t it be on a ‘sports club’ basis? (An element of business methodology will be required for using the venue/land, insurance, permission via the council etc) When I refer to event organising we aren’t doing it as a business but as a ‘sports club’ style team But there is a point there ….. and the proof was shown when ‘COVID reopening dates’ happened / didn’t happen Reopening included ‘sports clubs’ and the criteria needed to be Sport England (or equivalent) recognition, and council approval. Council approval was pretty much rubber stamping of the Sport England recognition. Sport England recognition has very specific criteria - paintball does not meet that. But did get endorsed by Sport England for reopening. Recognition includes many things such as a governing body, the scale of player membership, sites/venues operating under governing body standards etc There has been work underway for many years pressing for that, the UKPSF exists and isn’t a compulsory governing body to operate, but is a recognised body across the industry and the home office (Active) Player membership wasn’t sufficient. This year they have passed the threshold UKARA wouldn’t necessarily count as a governing body, but it is a representation for the trade community and is recognised as a way to establish ‘active player membership’ of something (in the threads back at the time there were the other ‘body’s’ such as whatever the airsoft players Union is called. A combination of those could make the way to a recognisable airsoft governing body Come the day of opening being announced by government paintball & airsoft sites announced their first post COVID game dates. Then read the small print. UKPSF cleared the criteria with Sport England paintball member sites read the UKPSF guidelines and were able to get a tick in the box from the council - even though paintball was not on the format sport ‘recognition list’ but did have confirmation of meeting the opening recognition criteria Non member paintball sites may or may not have just opened anyway Airsoft sites then began to announce that they wouldn’t be opening, some may or may not have opened anyway Even with sites run purely as businesses the sports recognition would apply to the activity. It is also not about the moaning every 4 years that dancing, gymnastics, chess, etc are in the Olympics then why can’t my hobby be a sport ? But it opens the doors (literally during COVID) but also to council support, government grants, lottery grants and we’ve now missed the boat on EU grants Got a little airsoft site? Struggling with the basics of running a safe chrono? Talk to your governing body, set up a club with youth opportunities, get a grant to put in safe practices and fund some chronos ….

A chrono could be sourced in the region of £50 to £100 (even cheaper too, but ideally a site should be going for something over £100 to actually go through regular use Back in my early days of paintball, when taking my own gun to a rental site the ‘magic chrono tree’ was often use because the staff couldn’t be bothered to go in the shed and find the site one (assuming that they even had one for the site guns) For events there would be one ‘big red’ box official site chrono, and a long queue which was made twice as long because of those players that had to keep going back to tune down within limit and also keep going back to turn up if they went too low So I bought my own basic yellow handheld so I could set up ready myself then get through official chrono first time I upgraded to an X-radar grey handheld when it was released for the ease of use plus ROF. Both of those were circa £80 to £100 (the x radar has a hardier site version to go on a tripod and doesn’t need the button pressed for manual checking - obviously will cost more) Events would now be expected to have tables of self checking chronos, which would get manned for official checks, and Marshall’s out carrying handhelds A tournament would have a self check chrono area, official handheld 100% check as teams go into the first games. Followed by spot checks These will be using the Virtue clock handheld series. Ours was £200 for the v1 which is still the dogs testicals Upgraded versions will be in the £200 to £300 and I think there’s a new one circa £400 which will give you a back massage as you check the player A site that’s properly serious might want one that collects data & produces reports - but we’re just after something to make a site just make the effort of checking In airsoft I’ve typically seen that the ‘shoot through’ style could be the preference, but they are all just a classic speed gun piece that is ideally optimised to spot a flying thing in a suitable range of velocities - and that’s exactly what the clock looks like Our clock is so much fun and can even chrono a paintball at a distance. (I wouldn’t trust that for accuracy snd don’t know if it could spot a BB from a distance) But I’ve been able to spot a dodgy player and sneakily chrono without them knowing before pouncing.

Wrong It is a valid & valued judgement

All valid reasons and also everywhere has different circumstances But it’s no excuse for failing basic safety standards If it’s not financially viable and they can’t afford to have someone actually check & enforce chrono then it’s verged on the fly by night cowboy

As an event organiser, been there, done that, and literally do have the T shirts, hoodies, etc…. ‘Profit’ just means we didn’t spend enough But we have never run anything for the money, only ‘for players, by players’, and design / run the games that we wanted to play but only getting to watch others Our first events were for the privilege of running the events, income to the site and charity … and our date in the calendar was due to the site finally calling our bluff and giving us a weekend in the quiet season - but benefited in the sense that we opened the event season each year. (Even so far that a commercial organiser that scheduled a game on the same date as ours and ‘allegedly’ were going to end us. That didn’t happen) We have profited. But everything has gone straight back in, or more often two of us have personally ‘invested’ far too much up front for specific events. I know what’s in the accounts, and I’ve a hunch about the ballpark of the rest. That doesn’t count sponsorship. We’ve been very proud of what we’ve done with their products, but as sponsorship is a form of advertising it’s hard to believe they get their VFM - especially having sponsored teams myself, though that started as a joke and ended up with people actually paying for my services One in particular I’m aware of has not only the annual number of days limited, but also a direct cost for just having one person step on site. That’s directly impacted on our event planning & preparation

You would have hoped it was serious But real life doesn’t appear to have these basics in place to ensure the basics are enforced…… On a fairly serious tack of the same subject, a site ought to have insurance and to adhere to VCRA/UKARA principles would be insured ??? and also any basis HSE/council checks a business open to the public ought to have industry standards systems and working practices in place For airsoft/paintball/activity insurance there should be a risk assessment, mitigations and an insurance price based on the remaining risk. An insurer may have just sold a ‘standard’ insurance package for the related industry/activity. But even that will have small print and obligation on the site. Waivers are well known on here for being misnamed / misunderstood - they are not a get out clause relieving a site of responsibility, but a confirmation that the player or their responsible adult understands and will comply with the basic safety requirements - therefore the basis safety requirements should be documented, made available and also complied with by the site. It’s laughable that many sites ‘cannot afford the staff’, but airsoft is supposedly ‘cheaper’ because it has plastic balls that take up less storage space and also don’t degrade in days / hours. There is the argument that it’s a luxury activity when people are choosey on how they spend their money when the economy isn’t great, alongside with the overheads of a site - but airsoft is always ‘cheaper’ even in an economy boom. If the site can’t afford to run the basics of the staff to do safety checks then the price should go up or the business isn’t viable Both airsoft & paintball are arguably sold too cheaply to the player. In paintball the ‘high expense’ is down to street ticket sellers under cutting other brands in the 80s/90s resulting in Delta Force dominance (and its name changes) and then laying on the real extra costs on the day Paintball is now in a trap that no site can up its price as their competition will take the customers. All they can do is put in various price structures and to diversify with multiple activities available - give the options that customers are going to want, and also help sell to stag/hen/corporates with a multi activity day Airsoft really ought to also be run on multi activity sites on a business basis (including zombie experiences etc) If a site is exclusive to airsoft, is it so good a site/experience that it can run a viable business in that manner? Or are they only doing airsoft, not doing the basics and relying on ‘player marshals’ to work for free / pay for the privilege to work ? (Bearing in mind I’m going to be working for free this weekend, and not only that but I’m getting up early Friday morning after getting back from London on the late train, to pickup, drive, work for free, nip off for a wedding reception and work for free the rest of the weekend. But that is for free entry, and build / expand friends business …. Not the entire business model) The rant on the basics of event safety may be over

The ease of HPA abuse (or let’s be a little bit fair that perhaps the player ‘innocently’ fiddles with an Allen key) …. surely the site could easily lock/tag the regulator, tape/tag any access panels to a circuit board? Because they are of course running a clear & consistent chrono and tagging process? And have management/staff who are experienced / capable of watching gameplay to spot usual/unusual ranges being achieved, the sound of appropriate/inappropriate rates of fire and also conduct valid random and where appropriate targeted in game and game entry chrono checks …… ((PS I know that I’m not experienced enough to spot these in airsoft, but in paintball my spidey senses can tingle when one players shooting sounds very different to the rest / usual play, and / or that pop-whoosh-splat/ding has a different ring to it)) Ive chronoed & velocity checked players who have been all good - just well tuned and efficient, but I’ve also caught the odd ‘rogue spike’ that’s magically occurred

…. and that’s why you need a hop-45

(As Rostock has put) There are good reasons and bad reasons to ‘upgrade’ / change parts Buying it and immediately changing half the internals ‘because the internet says so’ is a terrible reason Buying it, using it, and then changing this & that here and there to resolve an issue of why it’s ‘not quite right’ is a good reason Self education is a good reason - provided you have an alternative that works for when you screw up the one your working on