If you could change the joule limit, would you?

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Been thinking about airsoft joule limits in other countries and wondering who has the ‘optimal’ limit to balance effective range against injury.  
 

I would personally happily take a higher UK limit, although tempered by the fact I still want my kids to be able to take part and I wouldn’t want an increase in field limits to result in site insurance policies that start mandating additional armour beyond eye protection. 
 

Where is your happy middle ground? Or if you are not in the UK, what is your limit and are you happy with it?

[marcusr]

I think the current limits keep gameplay at a close range that encourages action and fun. I think having higher range is good up to a point (see paintball vs airsoft) but the 50-70m limit from a well tuned 1.14j airsoft gun is about right.

 

Also, might be an unpopular opinion, but getting shot at close range by 1.14j hurts plenty for me. Much higher and I'd be less inclined to do CQB.

[EDcase]

I agree with marcusr.

I think we currently have the best balance

[BigStew]

No I wouldn't. I really don't know if it's sadism but i don't get the more power lot in airsoft!. I have seen people get their teeth shot out, i have had to dig BBs out my arm, still got a mark on my collar over a month after i got shot. All at UK limits most from long range shots. It's been proved time again you don't need power to get range and personally think airsoft would better with out snipers. 

[Tackle]

No thank you, I agree that we have a good balance in all the categories. 

Airsoft guns are like vehicles, if a car has 100bhp & you tune it to 200bhp, you don't therefore get double its top speed or acceleration, airsoft guns are no different, plus harnessing that extra power is another issue with hops etc.

 

And extra power will likely shorten the lifespan of the internals, another negative 👎

[LMKipper]

For the most part, no. I think we have a very nice balance, however I do sometimes wish it was possible for LMGs to have a higher power limit for a touch more range.
 

You’d need associated rules (MED, only fire mounted etc) but would make them serve more of a purpose than they currently do. 

[Rickwales]

Im new to this, but I don't think I want it increased either for the reasons above. 

[Adolf Hamster]

I think it would be a site dependant thing.

 

A site with wide open fields/sightlines could afford a higher general level if managed well.

 

If we throw out any realistic concerns and assume people always stick to the rules and judge things like med correctly free from accidental or intentional breaches i'd work along the lines of:

 

1j for pews to be used point blank, so cqb sites would have that as a flat peak. So your subguns, shotguns, handguns etc all fall into this category.

 

Up to 1.5j for "assault" style pews outdoors, but with an med to ensure the impact owchie is 1j (i cba doing the math but lets assume it works out that ~10m on 0.48's sees them dropped to 1j)

 

Up to 2j for "battle" rifles, same as before with a higher med calculated to our 1j owchie standard and the requirement that you need to be carrying a bulkier pew to justify it, like a fal or scar h. This would apply to big support guns, but you cant just slap a drum into an arp9 you gotta be lugging around a pkm or fn mag to join that party.

 

Up to 3j for bolty, again you're gonna be landing a chunky med.

 

Those would be maximums, and our hypothetical situation would have sites adjusting limits up/down based on their field characteristics so a dense woodland site might be running flat 1j if the terrain prevents people engaging at any major distance. The idea is that you arent getting hit by anything higher than 1j.

 

Of course this is firmly rooted in a dreamland and in reality such a system would fail spectacularly given even benign isntances like people popping up right infront of a hedge as they pull the trigger on a farther target let alone that sites still dont know the difference between fps and joules and before we acknowledge the existence of the kickingmustangs of this world.

 

In reality i'd be more inclined to go for a flat limit until sites learn how to understand and police energy limits well given everyone shows up with different ammo weights and different gun types, then maybe we could introduce complexity.

[Impulse]

I would 100%. If I had my way it'd be:

 

CQB: 1.14J - no MED (pistols, shotguns, rifles, SMGs)

Assault: 1.5J - 10m MED, semi-only (rifles)

Gunner: 1.88J - 30m MED, must be deployed, must carry a 1.14J sidearm/secondary (LMGs, MMGs, HMGs)

Marksman: 2.32J - 30m MED, semi-only, no trigger spam, must carry a 1.14J sidearm/secondary (DMRs)

Sniper: 3J - 30m MED, bolt action rifles only, must carry a 1.14J sidearm/secondary

 

Still no bang rule. If someone comes up on you and they're within your MED, that's a you problem and you will have to use your pistol/secondary.

 

However, with great power comes great responsibility, and with how much shooting within MED, trigger spam and LMGs used like m4s I already see at game days, do I trust most airsofters with that kind of power?

 

No, I don't think I do... 😂

[Colin Allen]

I see no reason whatever to increase power limits; what need would we be resolving by doing so?

[Baser]

I would say no. 
 

1.13j limit is plenty for CQB, I cringe at chrono when the HPA rifles and pistols are tuning their pressures to be at exactly 1.13j when the max engagement distance is 10m.  I’ve had plenty of blood injuries and a couple of scars so don’t feel more power is needed.

 

1.13j limit is fine for woodland pistol/auto rifle.  I think if you increase the power limit you will just increase the engagement distance, MED or no MED. My old TM AK has well under 1j of power but comfortably holds its own out to 50/60m from its excellent hop. If you increase power limits you would need to work on the accuracy as well as flinging BB’s further/harder is only part of this.  More power and the need for more accuracy would just make the game more expensive to get into and frustrate/put off new players who run and gun a OOB AEG. 
 

1.88j is plenty for DMR. I love shooting my DMR, really good for sitting on the flanks suppressing any enemy advancements but a 30m MED in woodland is hard enough as it is with trees and bushes limiting sight lines. Also had a couple of mates come to me after a game to say they know it’s me that shot them given how much more it stings.

 

2.5j is plenty for boltys. Similar to above, a 30m sight line is difficult enough as it is and being picked off by a sniper you can’t see and potentially can’t reach with returning fire will get even more annoying!

 

Add to that the cheats out there won’t put their hands up when they get shot be that at 1.13j or 1.5j. Cheats also won’t observe any MED leading to more salty players or players simply not returning. 

[Tommikka]

Current UK airsoft limits are limited by the Police and Crime bill, providing you are within the limit your RIF / IF is fully exempted from firearms legislation

 

Previously, though there were Home Office guidelines (which I believe were similar to the now legal limit) the legal limit was under firearms legislation for air weapons at 6ft lbs and 12 ft lbs (pistol type and rifle type)

Note that there have been legal arguments that the lack of a rifled barrel can make the 6ft lb rule applicable 

 

6ft lbs = 8.13 joules

12ft lbs = 16.27 joules 

 

The higher 2.5 joule allowance is 1.8 ft lbs

 

UK airsoft has a nice and simple set of limits which is reinforced by legislation and explicitly excludes (compliant) airsoft from firearms legislation 

 

In paintball however, we remain in the murky world of firearms legislation (6/12 ft lbs), case law (max 300fps) Home Office guidelines (with a good working relationship with the UKPSF), and varying interpretations of placement under the VCRA

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Interesting, some really good arguments for and against which I hadn’t considered myself.  (OT - this is why it annoys me when forums die out in favour of content farms like Reddit et al, you don’t get the same level of discourse).  

 

I think I must be one of the masochists - about 75% of my time is spent at my local CQB site in shorts and t-shirt (I’m not a speed softer, I just get too hot) and whilst I do tend to finish with a lot of big bruises and welts, higher power wouldn’t put me off (within reason).

 

I suppose to qualify my original question, my practical ideal power limit is that which encourages the most participation, causes the least headaches for site operators and attracts the minimum attention from regulation or bad press - I’ve had enough hobbies die out as it is without another one being killed off.

 

Nonetheless, I’ve never used anything over UK limits, I’d love to back to back test on the same gun to see what different power limits really do to range and accuracy to see if there is Goldilocks style zone for an airsoft gun.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

I see no reason whatever to increase power limits; what need would we be resolving by doing so?

 

The angle myself and some others are aiming for with our dreamworld scenarios would be to bring some diversity to the field by giving pews some minor flavour of their real world utility.

 

Eg why lug around a heavy support gun when your stuck at the same effective ranges as someone with a featherweight m4 and box mag.

 

But to re-stress this is an entirely hypothetical dream world where people play fair. And frankly i'd take a flat 0.5j legal limit and enforced 2-tones if it came with a magic spell that would make everyone play fair.

 

Can be fun to dream though.

[Lyndication]

I can't say I've ever had more than a small bruise from Airsoft, and I once did a Halloween CQB game in a witch outfit. (Did sting a bit though).

 

I don't think you gain *that much* range from higher power limits. Chatting to Americans with an average 1.5J limit for automatic Airsoft guns, they seem to have pretty comparable effective ranges. It's all in the hop up after all. 

 

That said, I would like the legal limits relaxed based on RoF like we have now, for special events. Those Americans have pretty free rein so they can do GPMGs running at DMR limits, and .50 stationary HMGs running at 2.3J.

 

I think that would be really fun for MilSim and LARP, could be managed by making sure the operator isn't a dick, and it would be nice if it wasn't technically illegal to have that.

[Impulse]

I will say that my arguments for higher limits will come from a position of bias as I pretty much always do long range airsoft and it's what I enjoy (my longest hit in a game was 124m, but it was basically archery from an elevated position), but with how good hop ups are now, bolt actions and DMRs are a lot less useful with their current power levels. Granted, I still use them because it's what I enjoy, but in practical airsoft terms you gain very little from using a bolt action or DMR. I've done... a lot of testing with this, because I'm a big long-range enthusiast, and I'll go into details below.

 

The TL:DR is that hops are good, and in airsoft practicality (not range accuracy, but a "I can hit that airsofter over there" in game) a regular 1.14J gun can hit players at the same ranges as a 2.32J bolt action rifle.

 

I don't think we'd ever get higher limits anyway, because airsoft power limits are set by law (1.3J max full auto, 2.5J max semi/bolt action) and so we are constrained by that. The only variation tends to be on DMRs as even for me living in the black hole of airsoft sites that is Sussex, I've seen them at 1.48J (Gunman), 1.64J (Southdown/Allsorts), 1.88J (Worthing/Driver Wood) and 2.32J (Shift Your RIFT)

 

Now if you want to indulge in my autism, read on. If not, stop reading and save yourself before it's too late...

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I'll preface what I'm about to say by saying that I don't care if your "bolt action hits 100m easily". I've been building sniper rifles and DMRs for decades, and I know in my eyes what the effective range is for a 2.3J gun; every time someone makes what I consider an outlandish or exaggerated claim about their gun's range, I have found it to be overstated 100% of the time and usually shoot worse than my rifles. My measure for "effective range" is being capable of hitting a man-sized target at least 8/10 times, preferably 9/10 times, in ideal shooting conditions (no wind, good visibility). All of my findings are from just me spending time on the range and tinkering with different guns and different approaches, so it's all coming where the shooter has the same standards.

 

A well-tuned bolt action will hit a man-sized target pretty accurately at 75m with a relatively flat trajectory (a tiny little bump at the end of the shot). You'll probably be able to hit 85m as well, but  that requires a bit of angling or increasing the hop up a little bit. You can hit out further, though at this point there's progressively more and more luck involved with the shot as range increases. It will involve more aggressive angling of the gun and the gun is probably moving when you rack the bolt with each shot, making it a challenge to reset to the exact same position.

 

A well-tuned DMR (assuming 1.88J) will hit a man-sized target pretty accurately at 70m with much the same trajectory. You'll probably be able to hit out to 75 - 80m as well with the same practices of angling or increasing hop a little bit. It's also easier to do this as it's quicker and easier to make follow up shots with a DMR and so you might be able to hit a target out to that same 85m as the bolt action as you can walk in your shots a lot easier. Again, you can hit out further, but as range increases, so does the luck element.

 

A well-tuned 1.14J gun will hit a man-sized target pretty accurately at ~55m with the same trajectory. You can also hit 60m pretty often too with gentle angling. However, the big difference here is that you have full-auto, and therefore the angling component of getting more range is so much easier. After all, a hit is a hit and it doesn't matter if that hit was one well placed shot, or 100 BBs sprayed at an angle. I haven't managed to hit 85m (partially because the tree canopy stopped me from that aggressive level of angling), but I have easily hit 75m with a 1.14J gun by flipping it to full auto and spraying at an angle (the target is metal and makes a delightfully audible pinging noise when hit). Is it as accurate as a bolt action rifle hitting it with 9/10 shots? No. Does that matter in airsoft gameplay terms? Not really; a hit is still a hit and that player is still going back to respawn. You also have no MED, which is nice.

 

Accuracy by volume is a big part of effectiveness in airsoft because of how inaccurate our guns are.

[Colin Allen]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

Eg why lug around a heavy support gun when you’re stuck at the same effective ranges as someone with a featherweight m4 and box mag.

Back in the days when Battle Lakes regularly attracted 100+ players, Tony’s briefing used to mention that fully auto capable rifles and SMGs were limited to a 3 (possibly 2?) second burst, but for LMGs, “it’s your gearbox”.  
 

LMGs in airsoft can be used to suppress, which is what they do in reality, albeit at risk to the gearbox.

[EDcase]

I do get the wish to replicate and differentiate the various weapon types and representative calibers.

 

If we're talking dream worlds then in addition I'd change the fire rates to more accurately match the real world counterparts.

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by EDcase

[Lyndication]

1 hour ago, Impulse said:

The TL:DR is that hops are good, and in airsoft practicality (not range accuracy, but a "I can hit that airsofter over there" in game) a regular 1.14J gun can hit players at the same ranges as a 2.32J bolt action rifle.

 

To be honest, this has been my experience as well. My VFC G3 is effective out to 50-60m and that's probably my best option. My MP7 a bit shy of that, at 50m before it has dispersion all over the place.

 

I do find with a boltie that while the range doesn't really increase, the precision does a little. Whether that's just using heavier BBs or the actual power bump, I dunno. 

 

My boltie is basically a Mk12 build with a bolt action built in, so I get the ergonomics of a good DMR but higher power from it being a boltie. I find I can get first shot hits a lot more often at long ranges, and it makes peeking engagements a lot easier to win. I can hit a head or exposed arsecheek at the range my standard guns could hope to hit a man sized target.

[Tackle]

23 minutes ago, EDcase said:

I do get the wish to replicate and differentiate the various weapon types and representative calibers.

 

If we're talking dream worlds then in addition I'd change the fire rates to more accurately match the real world counterparts.

 

 

In principle, I love this idea, especially the fire rate, ive always thought it should match the irl equivalent, to that end, mag capacities should also match.

But

In our "irl" we've got hpa dsg stubby box mag m4's, used by Teflon coated 360 no-scopers, what chance have we got of a reasonably level playing field😬