Sewdhull Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 (edited) 312 xt95 324 xt100 356 Xt105 That was on the MP5 and I lost just under 20FPS going to one bearing from 2 so they would be a bit higher with the 2 bearings. Progressive springs are designed to have the coils close up and (they would not be progressive if they did not) you will end up with a spring that wants to bend in the middle if you heat up the middle of it to remove the springiness. If you really want to shorten a spring don't cut any off, pop it in a cup of water leaving the 15mm( or whatever you want to shorten the spring by) poking out and heat up the end with a propane o butane torch nice and quickly to a cherry red colour. Let it cool in the air. Then compress it on a long bolt to shorten it. You can repeat the process if you need to. I've never really understood why people cut the spring at all. Edited April 20 by Sewdhull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudotectonic Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 500C heatgun didn't seem to remove the springiness on the compressed coils on my m90 Not even if I tried to get it to settle afterwards by compressing it for a week inside a torch It was nowhere near cherry colour tho, it did darken the bright shiny metal a little (could just be surface grease) -- I guess the 20 FPS loss from removing the bearing is actually because the rotational friction on the non-bearing side is slowing its decompression Try playing with a spring by hand, but twist it or keep it from spinning, the twisting itself is going to affect it wants to expand/compress, in fact you can try to compress/decompress the spring by the twisting alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sewdhull Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 1 hour ago, Pseudotectonic said: 500C heatgun didn't seem to remove the springiness on the compressed coils on my m90 Not even if I tried to get it to settle afterwards by compressing it for a week inside a torch It was nowhere near cherry colour tho, it did darken the bright shiny metal a little (could just be surface grease) -- I guess the 20 FPS loss from removing the bearing is actually because the rotational friction on the non-bearing side is slowing its decompression Try playing with a spring by hand, but twist it or keep it from spinning, the twisting itself is going to affect it wants to expand/compress, in fact you can try to compress/decompress the spring by the twisting alone You need 800+Celcius to anneal springs, stainless is higher. The 20FPS loss is because the spring is less pre compressed, there's no extra friction in having 1 bearing instead of 2. I'm going to explain why because it's come up before. If you compress a spring one end will rotate with respect to the other and if you have a bearing at one end, that end will rotate freely because bearings have less friction than the spring rubbing against another flat surface and once the bearing is rotating there is not enough force to rotate at the other end. The whole spring is not rotating, the wire is repositioning itself as it is put in torsion, so if it is fixed at one end the other rotates. In Airsoft we have bearings not for friction issues, but so that the spring maintains its shape and does not bend to one side or the other when it gets compressed. You could fix the spring at both ends and have no frictional losses but you would still have the spring deforming as it compresses. If you put a bearing at both ends and lets say, one bearing is a bit stiffer than the other, then the bearing with the least friction will rotate first, but the other bearing will not rotate because the force to rotate it never gets high enough since it is relieved by the first bearing to rotate. This is essentially what happens if you have just one bearing. Remember that if the spring is fixed at one end there are no frictional losses, as it doesn't move. Friction also doesn't care about area, only the force and coefficient of friction. So if you have a bearing at both ends the friction is double that of one bearing, since the force at both ends of the spring is the same. If only one bearing rotates, the friction is halved. Because the angle the spring rotates is double with 1 bearing the same amount of losses occur. Both bearings need to rotate of course for this to be true. DanBow and Leo Greer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak2m4 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 5 hours ago, DanBow said: I suppose common sense should have told me that a longer spring, even though a lower rating, would make it more spicy than the standard m110 spring It's a number of variables, length yes but most important being number of coils and thickness of wire. And as @Sewdhull says it's the N force in the 60mm or so in the cylinder. Every gearbox is slightly different so you'll get some variation. 1.3mm vs 1.4mm thickness makes quite a difference. Also quality of wire. I went through 5 Chinese companies before realising they their grade of steel wasn't good enough and in the end switched to Japanese steel. Quite a long, painful and expensive process! I've had my tester M110 spring now for 4 years, must be 500,000 through it so maybe I'll do a video on it soon and compare it to the new ones. For some customers who are unsure what spring to buy I've been sending out my tester M100 spring, along with their order. That way they can benchmark with the M100 and then either keep or return. Just saves a few pennies for anyone strapped at the moment. DanBow and Leo Greer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 On 20/04/2024 at 11:44, DanBow said: Only got one bearing. Would removing a mm or 2 make that much difference? I'm looking at shortening my spring by about 17mm? I need to drop about about 20fps. Really grateful for all of your input too. 😁 If you shorten the spring by 17mm, the power will drop immensely. Take off a coil or two. DanBow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBow Posted April 21 Author Share Posted April 21 Ok, I heated the end of the spring and compressed about 15 mm ish. Put it all back together and it was totally dead!! Stripped it apart, and slipped, it all went flying all over the floor! Bollocks!!!!! So reshimmed, rebuilt, reassembled and it shoots lovely but stitting at a reasonably consistent 305fps on .28s so 1.2j. Still a little spicy. It was around 320fps on .28s - 1.3j. I've had a look but can't find a spring thats 160mm so I'll probably just heat/compress a little more. Not today though. Rogerborg and EDcase 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamal Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 @DanBowWhat a bloody kerfuffle you have whipped up mate. My cat would have had it done by now. Lost a spring,found a spring,bearing to high,no it's not,yes it is,spring to long.....😂😂😂 Rogerborg, DanBow, ak2m4 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBow Posted April 21 Author Share Posted April 21 20 minutes ago, Shamal said: @DanBowWhat a bloody kerfuffle you have whipped up mate. My cat would have had it done by now. Lost a spring,found a spring,bearing to high,no it's not,yes it is,spring to long.....😂😂😂 You dont need to tell me what a kerfuffle its been!!! 🤣🤣🤣 Shamal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak2m4 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Oh my days 😁 you and your length obsession lol Is the spring you fitted one you purchased from me? If so you just grab the power just down from it. I'm away at the moment but can sort something out soon for you. Shamal and Colin Allen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 On 21/04/2024 at 18:12, DanBow said: Ok, I heated the end of the spring and compressed about 15 mm ish. Put it all back together and it was totally dead!! Stripped it apart, and slipped, it all went flying all over the floor! Bollocks!!!!! So reshimmed, rebuilt, reassembled and it shoots lovely but stitting at a reasonably consistent 305fps on .28s so 1.2j. Still a little spicy. It was around 320fps on .28s - 1.3j. I've had a look but can't find a spring thats 160mm so I'll probably just heat/compress a little more. Not today though. Stop worrying about the length of the spring and focus on the power rating; that is what matters. ak2m4 and DanBow 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBow Posted April 22 Author Share Posted April 22 2 hours ago, Colin Allen said: Stop worrying about the length of the spring and focus on the power rating; that is what matters. But how can you focus on the power rating when that changes as you compress the spring to fit it? Rhetorical question really, ill just buy lower power springs until I get it where i want it. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 17 minutes ago, DanBow said: But how can you focus on the power rating when that changes as you compress the spring to fit it? Rhetorical question really, ill just buy lower power springs until I get it where i want it. 👍 You are overthinking it. The power rating is what it will produce in a typical (probably V2), well set up basic gearbox. Other variables are far more significant than the length of the spring, such as the barrel length and diameter, the cylinder type, the presence or absence of piston head or spring guide bearings, and the quality of the airseals. Once you have a starting point of a known output from a manufacturer's particular spring, it is easy to adjust upwards or downwards. Lozart and DanBow 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBow Posted April 22 Author Share Posted April 22 5 minutes ago, Colin Allen said: You are overthinking it. Yes, I do tend to do that! 😒 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Greer Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 As a note to the original question... When in doubt, Retro Arms low profile bushings are the way to go. I've run them from 60 RPS to over 2J. DanBow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 9 hours ago, DanBow said: Yes, I do tend to do that! 😒 We had noticed. 😉 DanBow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBow Posted April 23 Author Share Posted April 23 Ok, final update then I'll stop. For now! I set the pre-cock, on the Perun ETU++, to level 4 and left it for about 24 hours. Just checked it and it's shooting .28s at a very respectable 284fps/1.09j Lozart, Rogerborg and gavinkempsell 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 That is a good outcome. DanBow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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