Leo's Tech Thread

[Leo Greer]

Hey y'all. I figured I might as well create a thread to share what I'm working on and messing with. I do a lot of DIY modding, higher speed SSGs, higher power, and generally a lot of fine tuning on mechboxes. I won't be able to post a ton with schoolwork right now, but hopefully I'll put pics and updates up somewhat regularly.

 

Right now I'm changing my Arcturus CAT back from a DSG to an SSG and upping the power to act as a DMR. As a DSG it was running at 1.5J and 58 RPS, and for the DMR styled build I'm looking for 28-29 RPS and maybe 2.5ish joules. I'll post some pics soon!

[strykerles]

where are you? as that dsg is too hot to be used at sites and also the dmr will be too hot to use

 

unless it's just for personal use at home?

[Adolf Hamster]

8 minutes ago, strykerles said:

where are you? as that dsg is too hot to be used at sites and also the dmr will be too hot to use

 

unless it's just for personal use at home?

 

He's in america

 

Where i presume the legal limit is whatever he can get the gun to shoot

[Lozart]

7 hours ago, Leo Greer said:

Hey y'all. I figured I might as well create a thread to share what I'm working on and messing with. I do a lot of DIY modding, higher speed SSGs, higher power, and generally a lot of fine tuning on mechboxes. I won't be able to post a ton with schoolwork right now, but hopefully I'll put pics and updates up somewhat regularly.

 

Right now I'm changing my Arcturus CAT back from a DSG to an SSG and upping the power to act as a DMR. As a DSG it was running at 1.5J and 58 RPS, and for the DMR styled build I'm looking for 28-29 RPS and maybe 2.5ish joules. I'll post some pics soon!

 

 

Might be worth putting something in your signature to make it clear you're in the US. This being a UK site, a lot of folks will be confused with your FPS limits!

[Leo Greer]

4 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

He's in america

 

Where i presume the legal limit is whatever he can get the gun to shoot

 

Not quite, but close. 😉

 

FPS limits are field-specific, but for general usage most fields are something like: minimum MED: 20 foot. 1.5J for Assault class: 20 foot MED, 2.25J for DMR class: 50 foot MED. 3J for sniper: 100 foot MED.

 

And full auto rules differ. I don't use anything hot or fast on FA, as I prefer not to waste BBs and let my trigger response and reflexes do the job for me.

 

3 hours ago, Lozart said:

 

 

Might be worth putting something in your signature to make it clear you're in the US. This being a UK site, a lot of folks will be confused with your FPS limits!

 

Good idea!

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, Leo Greer said:

Not quite, but close. 😉

 

FPS limits are field-specific, but for general usage most fields are something like: minimum MED: 20 foot. 1.5J for Assault class: 20 foot MED, 2.25J for DMR class: 50 foot MED. 3J for sniper: 100 foot MED.

 

And full auto rules differ. I don't use anything hot or fast on FA, as I prefer not to waste BBs and let my trigger response and reflexes do the job for me

 

By legal limit i mean the limit before the police start raising eyebrows and calling it a firearm, which is something us uk based folk have to consider even if afaik it has yet to be tested in court.

 

 

field limits ofc are a different kettle of fish as they're mostly dictated by how much owch the playerbase considers acceptable.

[Pseudotectonic]

The (UK) airsoft definition is well defined in law measured by the plastic BB diameter and joule limit, so it is not something that needs to be tested in court, usually it is the more vague items with less clear interpretation that needs to be tested, so if it is over the limit, it is considered a firearm.

 

How you will get prosecuted is another matter because I don't think police do door-to-door chrono checks of every toy gun in an area.

 

By the way I find it interesting that there is no RPS limit in law. If you manage to fire a stream of BB at legal limit but at a fast enough RPS or large amount enough at the same time, you can definitely do some damage to person, in which case it would become a GBH or murder case, but not a firearms case because it is still airsoft!

[Leo Greer]

Yeah... there's no legal limit in America... They don't really care how hard we shoot each other as long as the field and everyone is signed off on it.

[Pseudotectonic]

I wonder if the site insurance has any input into a field's rule limit (in the US) or is it up to each field's management?

[Sewdhull]

I think that the ambiguity comes from what the rif becomes if you exceed the 1.3J or 2.5J limit.

The 1.3J is a number the experts at the home office decided would not penetrate the skin and therefore not be lethal (so far as the law is concerned)

So you can expect exceeding the 1.3J makes it a firearm, like an airgun, which then prevents you shooting at someone else, but not I would suggest at targets.

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Ackchually in the UK I don't think there is ambiguity between the 1.3J or 2.5J, because it is simply down to the capability of semi only vs 2 round bursts or more

 

I was just wondering if the US doesn't have legal limits, what factors are going into how do they decide on their field limits

 

Quote

 

(4)The permitted kinetic energy level is—

(a)in the case of a weapon which is capable of discharging two or more missiles successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;

(b)in any other case, 2.5 joules.

 

 

Edit: if I misunderstood your post, I think in both cases whether 1.3J or 2.5J it becomes a "lethal barrelled weapon"

 

And if the projectile is not an wholly plastic spherical missile with diameter less than 8mm, it also becomes a "lethal barrelled weapon" above 1J

 

Quote

(1B)In subsection (1)(a), “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile, with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Pseudotectonic

[Adolf Hamster]

7 hours ago, Sewdhull said:

I think that the ambiguity comes from what the rif becomes if you exceed the 1.3J or 2.5J limit.

The 1.3J is a number the experts at the home office decided would not penetrate the skin and therefore not be lethal (so far as the law is concerned)

So you can expect exceeding the 1.3J makes it a firearm, like an airgun, which then prevents you shooting at someone else, but not I would suggest at targets.

 

 

Theoretically for a bolty or semi auto gun then it being treated like an air rifle makes sense.

 

But for an auto capable pew does that mean being just a hair over the limit is going to get you the same kind of shitstorm that having an actual automatic firearm would net you?

[Colin Allen]

4 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

Theoretically for a bolty or semi auto gun then it being treated like an air rifle makes sense.

 

But for an auto capable pew does that mean being just a hair over the limit is going to get you the same kind of shitstorm that having an actual automatic firearm would net you?

That is where it gets messy as the law is rarely either clear or explicit; however, anything over the stated limits is a "lethal barrelled weapon" and, hence, by definition a 'firearm".

One interpretation would be that a full auto airsoft toy shooting over 1.3J is indeed a prohibited Section 5 firearm, with all the legal ramifications of that.

However, that will probably only be properly defined when someone gets arrested for possessing such a weapon and the case goes to court, probably followed by an appeal.  Let's hope that never happens.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Colin Allen

[Adolf Hamster]

4 hours ago, Colin Allen said:

However, that will probably only be properly defined when someone gets arrested for possessing such a weapon and the case goes to court, probably followed by an appeal.  Let's hope that never happens.

 

Yeah thats the test i was alluding to in my initial post.

 

There is a part of me kind of wants to see it tested, it would suck for whoever the book is landing on but at least it would set a clear precedent for the community to work to.

 

Maybe if it is towards the more extreme end of things sites might finally start putting some goddamn effort into enforcing limits.

 

Ofc i accept i'm perhaps in the minority in wishing we had a more concrete definition of what we can or can't be doing.

[Colin Allen]

4 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

Yeah thats the test i was alluding to in my initial post.

 

There is a part of me kind of wants to see it tested, it would suck for whoever the book is landing on but at least it would set a clear precedent for the community to work to.

 

Maybe if it is towards the more extreme end of things sites might finally start putting some goddamn effort into enforcing limits.

 

Ofc i accept i'm perhaps in the minority in wishing we had a more concrete definition of what we can or can't be doing.

I think the definition is clear enough; it is enshrined in law.  What is uncertain is what happens if someone breaks that law.

Sites really do need to get their act together on chronoing; however, no matter what regime you put in place, people will always find ways around it. Strangely (or not), the only site where I have never had concerns about hot guns is the one site where they rely on players to check their own RIFs and then carry out spot checks during the day, with a no-tolerance approach to hot guns.  If it is hot, you are going home.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Colin Allen

[Sewdhull]

There was a time, when the 1968 Act was drafted when things were simple and the legislation was drafted accordingly.

 

The various exemptions have muddied the water which were introduced to allow for example people to go play with airsoft stuff at the weekend.

 

If you have an airsoft gun, lets say a BASR which fires at 4J in the UK, does it just become an air rifle ?

 

Automatic weapons are ofcourse different, due to the definitions in the act.

[Pseudotectonic]

It depends entirely on the circumstances, see Charging Guidance in

 

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/firearms

 

There is an element of Public Interest Considerations, "if contravention is technical and there has been no risk to public safety" then prosecution may not be required

 

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/sentencing-and-the-council/about-sentencing-guidelines/about-published-guidelines/firearms-offences/

 

Say you are somehow found carrying a >1.3J RIF in public place

 

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/firearms-carrying-in-a-public-place/

 

Since it is still shy of imitation firearm and not belonging in any other category it would be a Type 3 weapon, Lower culpability if you are not really trying to use it, so Culpability category C, and Category 3 harm (no harm/minimal risk), so you would get a fine or discharge (court finds you guilty but does not give you a sentence because the offence is very minor).

 

But that can only happen if somehow you are carrying it outside without good reason and somehow getting arrested and then prosecuted

 

So again, it depends entirely of the circumstances, and if you are a sensible person you won't be able to get yourself into insensible circumstances very easily

[Colin Allen]

7 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

It depends entirely on the circumstances, see Charging Guidance in

 

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/firearms

 

There is an element of Public Interest Considerations, "if contravention is technical and there has been no risk to public safety" then prosecution may not be required

 

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/sentencing-and-the-council/about-sentencing-guidelines/about-published-guidelines/firearms-offences/

 

Say you are somehow found carrying a >1.3J RIF in public place

 

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/firearms-carrying-in-a-public-place/

 

Since it is still shy of imitation firearm and not belonging in any other category it would be a Type 3 weapon, Lower culpability if you are not really trying to use it, so Culpability category C, and Category 3 harm (no harm/minimal risk), so you would get a fine or discharge (court finds you guilty but does not give you a sentence because the offence is very minor).

 

But that can only happen if somehow you are carrying it outside without good reason and somehow getting arrested and then prosecuted

 

So again, it depends entirely of the circumstances, and if you are a sensible person you won't be able to get yourself into insensible circumstances very easily

The problem with that is that the nature of an overpowered full auto capable airsoft gun is not clearly defined in any legislation.  All we know is that it becomes a lethal barrelled weapon and, hence, a firearm.  Anything else is up to the CPS and whichever, if any, court some poor sod ends up in.

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Well the court doesn't just do anything they want, they follow the guideline, and an overpowered RIF would still be a Type 3 weapon despite the technical definitions under Firearms Act, so really going overpowered does not really mean much by itself, but the reason of it being overpowered would be (e.g. if you modified it because of intention to cause property damage vs if it is a technical fault of your chrono)

[Adolf Hamster]

48 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

So again, it depends entirely of the circumstances, and if you are a sensible person you won't be able to get yourself into insensible circumstances very easily

 

Sadly if theres one type of person guaranteed not to be sensible and get themselves into insensible circumstances its human people.

 

The worry is that we're one dumbass and a media outrage away from the no fun allowed hammer descending on our hobby.

[Pseudotectonic]

Luckily I think the VCRA is pretty robust and the airsoft industry self-regulates very well and so the law is not like to be changed very easily

[Lozart]

Well...this thread took a bit of a turn, didn't it?

[pyromancer6]

1 hour ago, Lozart said:

Well...this thread took a bit of a turn, didn't it?

True, I was really looking forward to a few videos of the insane DSG wankergun mentioned in the OP as I think they're just awesome showpieces to wow people with at the firing range (although it's a bit of a different story when you decide to shoot poor rental man dave and his little lad 120 times in two seconds, which I hope people don't unironically do with said wankerguns lol)

Edited October 22, 2023 by pyromancer6

[Sewdhull]

Airsofts gotta hurt in the US 

[Pseudotectonic]

I heard some fields in the US have a 30 RPS limit, not sure how common this is