ECWCS - Exwax Keeps you warm

[The Waco Kid]

Due to a philosophical debate with my wife (which I won) I had the opportunity to sleep in the shed last night.
I used the time to think about gear as it’s more important than emotional intelligence. 


 

Darn it! We nearly blended in.

 

 

The US military ECWCS - Extended Cold Weather Clothing System. There is a new acronym that involves “warfighter” for the kiddies as well.

 

The system comes in various generations, currently 1-3. There are material and component changes along the way but Gen 1 and 2 stuff is typically Woodland with Gen 3 in UCP and OCP.

Wiki ECWCS page

 

I am going to start with the most important bit, the Modular Sleep System.

[The Waco Kid]

The initial widely issued version is the woodland set. Tennier Industries was the main supplier of ECWCS kit but there are/were others. The genuine MSS sets I’ve seen are Tennier though. Labels are on the foot box. 
 

 

This label is from a later generation foliage patrol bag.

The components are:

 

a large compression sack, originally black and then switching to foliage etc. Later versions have a smaller sack for the patrol bag.

 

the patrol bag, originally olive and then switching to foliage and then coyote. Quoted temp range down to below 10c, sometimes 2-10C or even 0C.*

 

the intermediate bag was black and is now available in coyote and I think foliage. This is usually quote as down to -21c but -15c also turns up too.*

* Wiki, user instructions and some military users have published different figures. The newer gen bags may be the origin of the lower figures.

 

the waterproof “bivi” bag. Woodland camo, then UCP (well at least you’ll find your pit in the dark) and OCP.

 

There are later improved designs like the Multi Season Sleep System (Tennier).

 

Extra long models have been made I am not sure on dimensions but likely for those over 6’6”.

 

Width wise the patrol bag has plenty of elbow room for me at XL waist size and 5’11”, I have another head length of inside space.

 

Complete MSS in sack and uncompress on top of a patrol bag  bivi and isomat. For scale it’s a GAU-5/A 10in barrelled SMG. Yes I am awkward.

Edited January 2, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

In use last nights “test” was in open shed so protected from wind and rain with an air temp of 6c.
 

Clothing issue ECWCS gen1 polypro long underwear, wool socks and watch cap.

 

Bivi setup was basic foam isomat, the goretex cover and the patrol bag. I sleep head out to avoid condensation. But I’ve never actually had that as an issue.

 

 

  Even the gun is cosy. I had the mat under the bivi bag as there was some debris and the floor, I also sleep with my feet on top of my ruck.
  Otherwise it’s often better to have the mat inside to stop sliding off. The base of the bivi bag is pretty tough, heavier than my British Army is one as a comparison.

 

 Temp wise I was very comfortable. Bearing mind the Polarguard HV synthetic fill is 30 years old, the patrol bag is well used and has been stored compressed a lot.
  The goretex bivi also makes a lot of difference. If I were to use this in a more exposed place or down to 0C, I definitely would be wearing the ECWCS mid layer.

 

 

Bivi and patrol bag layered up.

Edited January 2, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

  The various layers snap together with press studs. These run either side of  the double action zip and each had a insulated reinforced baffle or an exterior storm flap in the case of the goretex bivi.

 

 

  It possible to leave the inner zips open but still be fairly well protected and just have the outer zip fastened for rapid exit.

 

  The goretex bivi has a semi circular top with a reinforced edge that will stand up from the floor.
  The top half can be held closed with a small Velcro section, it doesn’t seal shut, the zip stops at the neck line.

 

 

 

 

Head end  of the goretex bag with the end rolled slightly back. The upper edge sits over the lower one when pulled up, thereby keeping out rain.

Edited January 2, 2023 by The Waco Kid
Spelling & sobriety.

[The Waco Kid]

  The patrol and intermediate bags have a draw cord to cinch the hood close.    
  On all my bags shock cord has stretched and makes this not fully effective. 
  If I felt the need to do this I’d probably wear a jacket in the bag instead.

 

 

In combination the complete set up is recommended as a -34c bag or -42c on the current generation.

 

Things to note:

 

The temperature rating assumes you have the appropriate ECWCS clothing on for the conditions. 

 

For example, my much newer foliage patrol bag is warmer and the fill loft is better than my olive one. It’s somewhat less used.

 

Is the MSS still a good choice?*

 

*Specific Milsim/collecting aside.
 

Positives are a robust, easy to use set up, with good access. Modularity is simple and no fiddly zippers or adaptors.

 

Negatives are that it is very bulky and heavy for the warmth level compared to newer designs. Older bags may have lost some effectiveness due to age. Cost is high (in the UK) and you can get a more modern new kit for similar money.

 

Static situations or only using part of the system it’s excellent, if you can get it a decent price.

 

If you are carrying the whole lot on foot there are better options.

Edited January 2, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

  The patrol and intermediate bags have a draw cord to cinch the hood close.    
  On all my bags shock cord has stretched and makes this not fully effective. 
  If I felt the need to do this I’d probably wear a jacket in the bag instead.

 

 

In combination the complete set up is recommended as a -34c bag or -42c on the current generation.

 

Things to note:

 

The temperature rating assumes you have the appropriate ECWCS clothing on for the conditions. 

 

For example, my much newer foliage patrol bag is warmer and the fill loft is better than my olive one. It’s somewhat less used.

 

Is the MSS still a good choice?*

 

*Specific Milsim/collecting aside.
 

Positives are a robust, easy to use set up, with good access. Modularity is simple and no fiddly zippers or adaptors.

 

Negatives are that it is very bulky and heavy for the warmth level compared to newer designs. Older bags will likely have lost some effective due to age. Cost is high (in the UK) and you can get a more modern new kit for t similar money.

  As a note there are knock off versions. I believe MFH amongst other do them.
   Priced somewhat less than the genuine model. They do come up in some other camo patterns like plain olive or flecktarn.

  The outer is a “goretex-a-like” fabric and I have heard mixed reports regarding breathability. 
  I haven’t had my hands on one to comment on build quality.

[The Waco Kid]

ECWCS clothing items

 

If you are considering collecting buying these be aware that there are a lot of knock offs around.

 

The first generations were widely copied, sometimes under license or made by the US makers. They were also supplied as aid from US stocks.

 

Therefore very good ECWCS-a-like (especially the Parka) exist in non-US camo too. They are often a bit cheaper and if you can check the quality a good option. 
 

There are some decent modern clones   but also some utter garbage. 
 

GEN 1 includes several elements from or based on the “M65” series as well as M1950 and Korean War issue. Woodland and Three Colour Desert. *Not waterproof without treatment.*

 

GEN 2 essentially product improvement and upgrades, ie. parks hood stows away, better seam sealing. Transition to UCP & ABU.

 

GEN 3 effectively a redesign and the whole ensemble is much lighter. ACU transition to Skorpion/OCP issue.

Edited January 5, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

Gen 1 ECWCS along side bdu. Doesn’t include the Arctic accessories and M65 parts. I am not sure how often the latter were carried due to bulk.  
 

 

Various levels of the original system shown in the manual.

 

 

Wool and wool blends were specifically not used for the main garments. Possibly to make the ensemble easier to dry in the field. Small accessories did use some wool content.

 

Image from Natick development I believe.

 

Full set up with the Pasgt helmet under hood, the extreme cold weather mittens (fur back, no separate trigger finger) and type 2 aka “bunny” boots.

 

 

Both type 1 (black “Mickey Mouse” rubber boot) and type 2 (named after Arctic Hare) use vacuum technology like a thermos flask. The boots have valves to equalise them when flying.

 

[Lozart]

I have a Gen 1 goretex parka. It's seen some use (surplus issued kit) but it's still pretty decent. By all accounts the Gen 1 was preferred over the Gen 2.

[The Waco Kid]

Yes they were liked but not so much in the field by infantry.

  They did get a bit of a reputation as garrison wear because as made they weren’t waterproof and relatively noisy.

  There are publicly disclosed letters between Natick, WL Gore and a unit Commander (can’t remember which).

  The troops expected a waterproof layer, but Natick’s view was it’s to keep you warm. 

 

  As gore-tex goes they are incredible robust. Relatively undergrowth resistant and many parkas have survived despite working in the motor pool.

 
  I’ve like them but unlikely to really use them in extremis. It was in the mountains these days I go for something that weighs less!

  
 

  Another “test” run of the MSS patrol bag and bivi.

 

  Over night temp was about 4c and a little bit of breeze. Set up was the same. I did start off with the gen 1 ECWCS insulation layers to see how much different they made. 
 

  Flipping sweating within minutes. So had to strip done to the base layer.  About 4am I put the M65 liner pants back on.

  Having the other components in the bag probably kept it a bit warmer too. Slept like a log until 9am…

ECWCS insulation components:

 

Natick development photo and then my larp version. 😁

 

 

 

Layers are all the same size and are design to stack. If you are going to wear two M65 field jacket liners then you may need to go up a size on the parka.

 

1) Polypro underwear, warm and relatively thick. Like a thin fleece rather than a modern base layer.

 The boots are designed to provide a lot of the foot protection so another layer of socks may be useful for sleeping in. 

 

2) Fibre pile “brown bear” jacket & bib. Black reinforcements and chest pockets. Not as windproof or neat as modern faced fleece. Warm though. 

 

The black SPEAR style fleece superseded this the later generations of ECWCS are more like that. Chest pockets on it are useful however.

3) M65 field jacket and pants liner go over the fibre pile. I’m not wearing the jacket liner. These are constructed like the usgi poncho liner.
  Loose cut with high leg, the dedicated ECWCS versions have buttons outside legs to put on over big boots and the jacket has chest buttons.

 They are very smooth so make decent sleep wear. The pants ideally need braces (M1950) as they have no waist support if worn alone.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

Collecting Gen 1 ECWCS

 

Parkas, are fairly common on the UK market.  As well as copies of varying quality. Larger sizes in good condition tend to be pricey.

Helikon copy in Olive

 

 

The matching trousers don’t seem to have be used that often and can be picked up cheaply in nearly new state.

 

  M65 liners are very common and modern reproductions are about £35 for a jacket.
  The genuine ECWCS ones style are not much more but uncommon and the clones work fine.

 

  The polypro underwear is readily available, not expensive. I’ve found sets still packaged.

Fibrepile jacket pocket layout.

 

 The fibrepile is pretty rare in Europe. I don’t have the original bib (pants) and use a SPEAR set. If you find a jacket it’s likely to be expensive. 
  They were/are quite sort after by hunters and bush folks in the US and don’t really show up over here. 
  Might be a stock pile in Germany somewhere. I’ve yet to see it show up on Ukrainian troops. 😉

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

MSS test 3.

 

  Intermediate bag this time out on the patio in gore-tex cover plus two kip mats. Polypro u/W, double socks and cvc hood. So far fine at -4c.

 

 

Of course bladder capacity is the real test….

Edited January 16, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

I once went for a walk in those East German padded winter trousers and jacket on a bitterly cold day.  I got about half a mile from home and nearly passed out.  I ended up taking the lot off and walking back with steam coming off me.  Glad I live in the country tbh.  A trouser-less stroll through town might have ended badly...

 

Is the jacket practical for UK temperatures?  I'm thinking of a coat for winter fishing rather than airsoft.  For running around it's tshirt all year, albeit under a poncho in the very worst weather.  

[The Waco Kid]

No, military cold weather kit isn’t generally “skirmishable” in the UK. * (see below).
 

It would have to be incredibly cold to play in ECWCS kit of any generation. 

 

Militaries certainly operate in pretty extreme conditions using it. Probably talking sub -20C. But that may not mean fighting.

There is the aspect that simply being able to function in those conditions when your enemy can’t means you effectively “win” without even having to fire a shot.

 

It would have to be pretty bad for an infantryman to choose to enter a fight wearing a gore-tex parka. They are just too noisy for starters. Other bits maybe.

A heavish windproof but quiet British type smock works very well and is probably still the best outer for poor weather 90% of the time.

 

I my “youth” I was an winter climber for fun and did farm labouring for work.  It would have to be absolutely sheeting it down before going to an actual waterproof layer.

 

For purely cold I loved Buffalo kit. But that is incredibly hot and you had to vent it if active. For work a ‘95 smock, thermal shirt and wool pulley was fine. Tweed was for the higher orders!

 

* So why is it kit like ECWCS useful for skirmishing?

 

1) Milsim / Battlesim. We are all larpers after all!

 

2) Events or over nighters.
😴 🔥 🍲 🚽 🥶 

and

 

3) How much time at your average skirmish day is actually not in game? 

There is a lot of standing around. A lot of sites it is 90 minutes plus from doors open to game on.

 

Note: MSS update.

 

The bladder was calling so I had to get up. Bit of frost starting on the bag but no condensation, -5C. I put on M65 pants. Otherwise fine but my back remembers why I usually kip in a hammock!

Edited January 17, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[Rogerborg]

On 02/01/2023 at 16:54, The Waco Kid said:

On all my bags shock cord has stretched and makes this not fully effective. 

 

The mind boggles as to how many arguments you must be winning. 🤔

 

Ace series, by the way, please keep up the philosophical discussions.

[The Waco Kid]

Cheers dude. 😉 I hope it’s of some use to someone.

 

Just been over to visit one of the other members for hot coffee and biscuits brown! 😁

[The Waco Kid]

ECWCS type 1 & 2 boots I don’t have so can’t cover much.

 

 

 Main contractor was BATA but also Acton and Airboss.

  
  Draw backs from some accounts are:

 

1) Weight (1..25 to 1.5kg ish).

2) Tread isn’t modern Vibram. 

3) The white ones are disco….

 

 Good things are:

 

  1) Warmth (-30C or -60C) aprox.

As an aside.

 

 

The felt USAF mukluk liners work as bed socks or for when you are in your arm chair smocking a pipe. 😉

[JimFromHorsham]

1 hour ago, The Waco Kid said:

Cheers dude. 😉 I hope it’s of some use to someone.

 

Just been over to visit one of the other members for hot coffee and biscuits brown! 😁

bring biscuits fruit-s next time please 😛

[The Waco Kid]

Okay, the hunt is on.

 

 These ones? 😍

 

https://www.adventurenutrition.co.uk/military-biscuits-fruit-95g-long-bbf.html

 

 Or these ones? 😁

https://hungryrabbit.com/2011/06/the-white-rainbow-rainbow-cookies/

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Interesting stuff.  I have some Swedish cold weather kit for winter camping at games.  Warm but extremely bulky and stiff  as it's canvas faced.  

 

This looks much more modern and user friendly.   

[The Waco Kid]

Never had a close look at genuine Swedish kit. I bet it’s hard wearing stuff.

 

I like the Swedish M44 cook system. My pot is knock off Miltec, 😢 , but the rest was unused issue. Well thought out design.

 

I may have more stoves than rifs. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

 

Is there a thread on “how to survive an airsoft weekender without getting Nora virus”? 😏

 

Question one - what am bested big roll?

 

Answers will hinge on whether you prefer softness or length. 😋 Also modifying the dispenser for better SPS - sheets per second…
 

I’ll get my ECWCS parka. 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

I went through a phase of making various hobo cookers for meths, as well as pine cone cookers from big tins of Chappie.  

 

Mrs TPH has one of those ultralight titanium burners nowadays.   Less than a tenner and less hassle but still heavier and you have to carry the gas.  

 

There's no perfect answe for all situations.   Come the apocalypse I'll be grateful for that pinecone one...

[The Waco Kid]

Yes titanium stuff is ridiculously light. To the point I sometimes wonder if I forgot packed something as the bag feels wrong. 
 

Everyone loves a hobo, it’s the smell! 😋

ECWCS accessories.

 

The overwhites. The standard old US issue ones include a baggy parka and pants with cargo pockets. Over gloves, lid and pack covers are available.

 

Not a lot to say about them apart from the material not being the best.

 

The are pretty thin and don’t fully conceal the colour beneath.🤨

Despite being thin they don’t dry that quickly.

 

The recent replacements are much better. I have a knock off/foreign  set made from microfibre that are way better and pretty windproof. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

The basic issue glove was the D3a light duty work glove.
 

They area simple thin leather glove with a strap and buckle to secure them across back.

 

 

Wool blend liners are designed to be worn inside the leather glove in the cold.

 

Neither layer is waterproof, the liner is a fairly coarse knit and not especially wind resistant. 
 

Pretty basic and not very good in the wet but they are an okay work glove.

 

Issued in black or tan.

 

Not really a shooters glove and that explains why acquiring a pair of flight gloves was popular.

Edited January 20, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

Mittens extreme cold weather.

 

These are literally big mittens. You will not be changing a mag wearing these let alone shooting…. But they are warm and there is a cord to go up your sleeves just like primary school. 😁

 

 

Over white covers were made and they come in Olive, Woodland and ACU. Wooly pad on the back for cleaning your goggles/wiping you nose. They have M65 type liners and are sized to go over the trigger finger shells (next item).

Edited January 20, 2023 by The Waco Kid