Adventures in Wonderland or who the “fruitcage” is ALICE?

[The Waco Kid]

Before the forces of righteous freedom became enamoured of MOLLE, they’d had a long standing flirtation with her older sister ALICE.

 

Don’t get me wrong.
 

Molle is reliable, strong, solid and generally stays put on her own. All great things in a soldier.

 

Alice well, bit more of a wild child.
 

Where Molle arrives to the party on time, Alice is late; drinks all the booze; sleeps with the band and legs it with all the weed. 
 

Alice can only be tamed with a good supply of paracord and cable ties. She’s just built different.

 

This isn’t to say MOLLE and ALICE can’t work together. Alice used 2” webbing so quite a few molle pouches will fit and there are adaptors. Malice clips also work well.

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

 The Green tick.

 

 

RHS: Large Alice (60L+). LC2 version Only issued in OD. LC1 has different lid strap adjusters.

Partially filled. 1 = 3x mag pockets, not on medium; 2 = center sustainment pouch is bigger; 3 = ALICE modular attachment also fits older pattern fitting still used on machete and bayonet frogs; 4 = 1 quart bottle and IFAK installed.

 

LHS: Medium Alice (30-40L). Late LC2 model in woodland camo. Patrol bag, Bivi bag, change of clothes and “dry bag” liner pretty much fill it. Sustainment pouch’s will each hold a couple of stripped MRE’s, poncho or canteen and cup. 
Minor modifications like strap buckles. 
 

TOP: Complete MSS this will fill up the large pack. It’s in UCP and we don’t talk about UCP in this house.

 

BOTTOM: ALICE “deuce gear” with Y-harness. Airsoftized.

 The Green tick.

 

 

RHS: Large Alice (60L+). LC2 version Only issued in OD. LC1 has different lid strap adjusters.

Partially filled. 1 = 3x mag pockets, not on medium; 2 = center sustainment pouch is bigger; 3 = ALICE modular attachment also fits older pattern fitting still used on machete and bayonet frogs; 4 = 1 quart bottle and IFAK installed.

 

LHS: Medium Alice (30-40L). Late LC2 model in woodland camo. Patrol bag, Bivi bag, change of clothes and “dry bag” liner pretty much fill it. Sustainment pouch’s will each hold a couple of stripped MRE’s, poncho or canteen and cup. 
Minor modifications like strap buckles. 
 

TOP: Complete MSS this will fill up the large pack. It’s in UCP and we don’t talk about UCP in this house.

 

BOTTOM: ALICE “deuce gear” with Y-harness. Airsoftized.

Gear review by brent0331 on you tube.

The core or the ALICE modular system. The slide keeper/Alice clip.

 

 

From left: Chicom flimsy shite. Dutch issue clip - good to go. Old US issue - good to go.

 

The copy clip feels thin and the gate slides freely. The Dutch and US ones are beefier and the gate has resistance. They are also usually a snugger fit on a belt etc. 
 

It’s standard to back up the clips with a cable tie or loop of paracord once installed. Pass it through the eye and either side of the webbing you are fitting it two. Then fasten.

Edited November 7, 2022 by The Waco Kid

[Tommikka]

27 minutes ago, The Waco Kid said:

 

Molle is reliable, strong, solid and generally stays put on her own. 

 

As long as it’s put together properly, and depending on the type of strap

 

A full on, multilayered, thick MOLLE strap will pretty much stay put as soon as it sees the base, but will bring on swearing to cold fingers attempting to get some movement in the strap to attempt a weave.

 

But a cheap chinese airsoft / paintball MOLLE strap will float away at the slightest breeze, and the uneducated will be seen with flapping pouches due to the failure to weave —— unless they fly away after meeting the first bush

 

All these systems are just that, a load carrying system.  The best could be a well stitched purpose built rig, configured for the individual and role.

(Cue tailoring shops around all garrisons in the UK constructing/securing custom webbing systems) 

 

But that relies on the role staying the same, or multiple rigs ready for each role.

Cue the change of name from webbing to load carrying system, and ALICE being one of many steps between old school slip on pouches with belt & yoke webbing rigs to (almost) full modularity under MOLLE - until the next systems 

 

 

 

[JimFromHorsham]

I was born into airsoft too late to appreciate ALICE , I went straight from 58pt in my yoof to MALICE clips as a full blown plastic death warrior …

 

Malice clips …

 

 

Paraclete … oh how your soft silky straps helped my fingers heal .

 

anyway , I digress … 

 

let’s talk ALICE
 

 

 

[The Waco Kid]

I notice it’s the right hand….

Edited November 7, 2022 by The Waco Kid
To be more rude.

[The Waco Kid]

LC2 Alice pack straps and hip pad. There are still after market options which are often better than the issue ones. The Tactical Tailor ones being quite sort after.

 

With minor mods the various models of external “plastic” frame for Molle issue packs will work with an Alice pack.
 
The Molle hip pad is a very nice upgrade for load carriage by all accounts. 
 

Fairly standard medium Alice set up is:

 

1 Quart canteen and E-tool carrier in the left and IFAK and 2 Quart on the right.

 

The E-tool seems rarely to have been carrier on the web gear and generally moved to the pack. IFAKs don’t seem to be have carried on the webbing that often back in the day. Some units only got the dressing pouch anyway. 
 

The solid insert for the IFAK could be uncomfortable worn on the web belt or shoulder harness and if worn might be added to the top of the training pack (butt pack).

 

IFAK content varied as they were by theatre. So soldiers should have had desert supplies for Op Desert Storm.

 

The little pocket on canteen carriers was originally for salt tablets. Later on iodine/chlorine water purifying tablets mini box lighters went in there.  The 2 quart shoulder strap (utility strap) is run through the pouch buckles and used to compress the whole pack.

[The Waco Kid]

US brew kit.

 

 

1) 2 quart canteen.

2) “NBC” drinking cap usually on one of the 1 quart canteens.

3) 1 quart canteen, there is a soft bodied version.

4) Cup and nested “natick” stove.
The stove is just the ww2 one reissued so they could heat drinks that came in MRE’s. The M1910 mug (L shaped handle) is will work as well. That style was preferred by some.

5) After market lid. Bend the edges to get a better fit. Or use aluminium foil.

6) After market Foldacup. Compact way to increase field cooking options and a bit better to drink from than the metal mug.

 

Not shown:

 

Hydration cap - Cap with flexible tube turns 2 quart or soft canteen into a hydration system.

 

Spork - comes in the MRE. But plenty of civi ones around.

 

Aluminium/Tin foil hat - light weight lid for mug and a bit to stand trioxane/hexamine/alcohol/c4 block on.

 

There is a second model of stove that the USMC (and maybe others) got for Desert Storm. It nests too and has a top grill which supports the mug  rather than jam onto it. 

It was pretty common to modify the natick stove with wire to make a better pot stand/act as a grill

 

The stove set up is okay. Servicemen often bought copies to turn in so they could keep the originals.
 

My personal opinion is it’s not the greatest wood burner and honestly the British cooker or BCB one is just a better stand from the get go. Essentially it works, pretty unbreakable and is very light.

 

 

Airsoftised ALICE deuce gear.

 

 

Y-harness with pace beads and compass/dressing pouch on the shoulder. Often the pouch is inverted.

 

Large “LC3” belt (actually IIFS kit) plus belt pad it cut from kip mat and tied in with paracord.

 

RHS: 1 quart canteen carrier; M12 holster;  Small arms magazine pouch (copy); aftermarket compass pouch.

 

LHS: Dump pouch is in the spot where the e-tool carrier or additional canteen carrier would go. Empty canteen carriers were sometimes used as dump pouches. 2 x small arms magazine pouches (copies).

Edited February 20, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

Deuce gear parts breakdown:

 

Y-harness. The clips to attach to the waist belt are notorious for being uncomfortable. For me pad works fine.

Very commonly replaced with paracord. On copy y-harnesses the clips tend to be pretty weak, definitely worth changing.

 

 

Cravat bandage in dressing pouch. The lenstatic compass fits these to but they are a bit chunky. 
Most of these pouches attach with a single Alice clip. There is a two slot version though.

 

Strobe pouches are sometimes fitted to the shoulder but the pouches themselves are rare.

 

 

Fulton stupid lights can be worn on the shoulder too. By the eighties small maglights is similar were often Secured with LBE bands (elastic loops). Radio handsets were often hung here as well.

 

At the front the harness is designed to clip to the mag pouches but it can be run straight on to the belt.

 

 

Go Airforce!

 

The older H-harness was often still sort out. Partly for comfort and likely kudos by some. Blackhawk and others made H-gear to fit Alice, sometimes incorporating hydration sleeves.

Not uncommon to see a mixture of suspenders on operational pictures.

Edited November 8, 2022 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

There are many varieties of pistol belt issued with the ALICE system. They are sized but have quite a bit of adjustment.

 

Initially the buckle from the M1956 pistol belt was used (LC1)

 

Then the quick release buckle.

 

 

The press in (LC2) release buckle fades to a very pale grey over time.

 

The fasted buckle is the later standard  and the one usually seen with the TLVB

What is common is that Alice belts have two rows of eyelets, with the lower ones to hang the old M1910 fittings.

 

The adjustment retainers vary and the quick release and fastex buckles have extenders available to go over body armour or cloth weather kit.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

Small arms magazine pouches for 3x M16 30rd magazines.

 

 

  Like most of the ALICE pouches they are held in place by two Alice clips that go through slots (A) on the back.
 

 In addition the mag pouch has a tab (T) and eyelet to clip the harness strap onto for support.

 

Loops (G) with securing straps are to hold grenades. This pouch has damage (D) to the lid. I repaired/altered it on the inside as it’s actually my IFAK pouch.

 The pouch is reinforced with plastic and a pair of thin strips inside to separate magazines.

 

 

It’s pretty common to find the mag dividers cut or removed on surplus pouches. Sometimes the grenade loops too.

 

The Alice pouch lid fasteners have a bit of a reputation for fragility.

 

There are a heck of is lot of these pouches still knocking around with intact clips however.

 

There are some similar mag pouches including the Lincloe issued the the USMC in Vietnam.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

Airsoftised mag pouches.

 

 

These are copies (I think Miltec). They lack the US marking and come with poor quality Alice clips. Otherwise build is fine for skirmishing.

 

Dimensions are slightly bigger if anything. Which I made use off.

 

 

I’ve added a layer of kip map to the bottom so AEG mags sit a bit higher. 
 

The card tapped to the dividers eliminates battle rattle and makes reinserting mags easier.

 

 

Not sure if this was down with rea mags but the lincloe pouches have individual pockets.

 

When I can be bothered I may swap the fake Alice clips for Malice clips just so the pouches are super stable for skirmishing.

Edited November 9, 2022 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

M12 holster, aka the suicide holster.

 

 

They were made by quite a few firms, Bianchi and Cathy being two.

 

”Suicide holster” allegedly comes from the awkward draw and people pulling the holster off with the gun under pressure. 🤨  

 

It’s sized for the M9 and usually fit 1911’s and Glocks too. 
 

The draw technique is different to high speed holsters but gives good protection to the pistol.

 

The holster is ambidextrous and uses a specific quick belt mount. This is also used on the Bianchi M1025/1030 pistol mag pouch.

 

 

There are thumb break kits, drop leg adapters and shoulder/tanker fittings available.

 

 

With the accessories and ability to hold a lot of different pistols it almost lives up to being the “Universal holster”.

 

Are we having fun yet?

 

[The Waco Kid]

Bianchi brand double pistol mag pouch. Usually seen on military security and police belt kit.

 

There are double (shown) and quad mag versions. The Lower stud accommodates single stack mags.

 

 

It has a plastic insert so protects mags better than the standard ALICE version which is just fabric.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

ALICE goes high speed with:

 

the Tactical Load Bearing Vest (Enhanced)

 

not only TACTICAL but also ENHANCED! 🤩🥳

Technically not ALICE but IIFS. Although this and the associated training pack were designed to integrate with it.

Prior to the TLBV(E) the was the non-enhanced Tactical load bearing vest.

 

 

It had vertically orientated magazine pockets. It is therefore less cool, even the model looks disappointed. 😥

Edited February 13, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

The TLBV was issued in woodland camo 😎 , black for police units and to Michael Biehn when he was in charge of Seal team 6.

 

 

Yes I cropped out Charlie Sheen.

 

Desert versions, like ALICE, turn up. But unlike ALICE I’m not 100% sure it was actually on general issue.

 

There is a 40mm grenadier version too.

 

 

In use the TLBV replaces the ALICE Y suspenders and also solves some of the problems with it.

The shoulders are generously padded and the lower edge of the vest has multiple belt loops so supports the pistol belt very well. 

 

 

 

The TLBV has a massive range of adjustment and integrates pretty well with the PASGT vest and IBA.

Edited February 13, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

The  rat panels are mesh and do not cover much of the torso, minimising heat build up.

 

 

Features:

 

ALICE mounting points across the back of the shoulders (A) and front of each shoulder with press stud loop.

 

 

Alice mounting points in the lower back plus hardware (H) for the trading pack (butt pack). There is a specific version to match the vest.

 

 

A training pack will also mount across the upper back as well.

Two frag grenade pouches (F), one on each lower front of the vest. These will hold a compass or two field dressings.
 

 

Pockets for six M16 type magazines, most polymer ones should also fit.

The upper pockets hold two (2) mags and the lower one (1).

 

All the pockets have press stud and velcro closures.

 

The vest from has two adjustable 25mm buckles and whatever waist belt you attach.

[Lozart]

I have a TLBV-E in my collection of manky old kit. While the mag pouches will fit two STANAG mags, most PMAG types are so snug as to make it almost pointless plus the baseplates effectively prevent any double stacking in the top two pouches (same goes for STANAGs with Magpuls). The cord locks on the stringy side pieces are also about as much use as a chocolate fireguard and break quite easily (spares can be found in the dark recesses of ebay if you look carefully though). Highly advise either tying the cords in a knot under the lock or taping them up.

[The Waco Kid]

In summary:

 

The TLBV is not a bad option for airsoft.

It had a massive range of adjustment, smaller players will have the pouches in the front. For bigger players they will sit on the sides.

 

Originals and many copies are of decent construction and by omitting the belt it makes a light weight rig. 

It’s well ventilated and easy to take on and off quickly.

 

Down side for some is the limitation on what can be carried it a belt rig isn’t added.

 

2 hours ago, Lozart said:

I have a TLBV-E in my collection of manky old kit. While the mag pouches will fit two STANAG mags, most PMAG types are so snug as to make it almost pointless plus the baseplates effectively prevent any double stacking in the top two pouches (same goes for STANAGs with Magpuls). The cord locks on the stringy side pieces are also about as much use as a chocolate fireguard and break quite easily (spares can be found in the dark recesses of ebay if you look carefully though). Highly advise either tying the cords in a knot under the lock or taping them up.

 
Yep, definitely worth backing up the cord locks with a knot or “toaster” toggle. 

 

My PTS Pmags work okay. I do draw and insert the rear mag first so it’s stepped above the front one. Might make a difference?

 

I can see the old rubber ranger pulls being a no go, ‘coz they is Thicc….. 😝

Edited February 8, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

Of course you can get the pouch wet and jam two mags in overnight to stretch it out.  😜

[Lozart]

15 hours ago, The Waco Kid said:

Of course you can get the pouch wet and jam two mags in overnight to stretch it out.  😜

 

Might just give that a try!

[Dan Robinson]

Who the fck is Alice?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry.

[The Waco Kid]

                    “Surprise cock fags!”

 

 

                HAPPY COLD WAR WARRIOR DAY

 

 

Saint Alice’s day isn’t until the 15th of June, but what the heck.
Saint Alice is the patron of the blind and paralysed.

Make of that what you will. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

IIFS basic set up of vest, dressing pouch, belt, 2x canteen pouches and the field training pack.

 

 

It’s actually a fairly comfortable set up.

 

The IIFS version field training pack/butt pack  is slightly different to the M1956 and ALICE models.

 

The butt pack can be attached using the rear vest belt fittings.

1) The long upper straps thread through the vest D-ring first

2) THEN through the D-ring on the pack

3) and finally through the adjuster on on the pack to secure it

 

The pack can be fitted higher up using ALICE clips.

 

The straps on the top and bottom of the pack will hold items like poncho liners and there are ALICE loops on the sides.

 

The butt pack is a single water resistant compartment with a drain grommet and expanding snow collar with draw cord.

Edited February 22, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

The CFP-90 Combat Field Pack 1990 (ish). This is the US issue “Bergen” for the end of the Cold War and part of the IIFS kit. 

My thanks to Messers Pie & Hatchet, of the legal firm Hatchet, Pie & Sausage.

 

The back. Or the front. 
 

 

The other side but not the sides.

 

The Carry Fucking Plenty is a two part pack system. The above is the main 110L, 70lbs+ capability main bag. The add on assault pack will be below.

 

For scale the pack pictured is holding two full military winter sleeps uncompressed.

 

This one is the Gen 2 Specialty Defense model and comes in ever fashionable US Woodland. 

 

Features:

 

Ajustable back system with aluminium stays and padded hip and shoulder straps. A step up from the green tick but care is needed to avoid breaking the black plastic Y-yoke.

 

Lower compartment extends up into the pack (the internal shelf can be opened) that will hold the full MSS. 

 

Main compartment with radio slot, snow collar and hydration/comms ports.

 

Map pocket in lid.

 

Pass through slots on the sides for skis/antenna’s/long thin things.

 

Right hand side long sustainment pocket. Left hand side two shorter utility pouches. Empty in the photos above, full below. Drawcord and compression straps on these pockets.

 

 

Three rows of ALICE/molle compatible webbing. And ice axe loops.

The CFP-90 is a great pack. It never fully replaced ALICE and was eclipsed quite quickly by the first issue of molle.

 

By all accounts a better carry than and Alice frame but not as modular as either it or the later molle offerings.

 

Essentially it was retired for being too good. US troops just don’t TAB 100 miles with a ton of gear.  They have cruise missies and helicopters.😉

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by The Waco Kid

[The Waco Kid]

Complete CFP-90 large and patrol (small) pack combined.

 

 

 

Compared to fully loaded medium Alice.

Top down.

 

Back to back.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by The Waco Kid