Will it fit with some ✨ persuasion ✨?

[GPTgo]

Hello my friendly neighborhood techs..

 

I'm on a mission in which I'm trying to push my skills as a new tech.

 

Has anyone had any luck or even attempted to fit a Crazy Jet barrel into a Maxx Hop Unit with R hop? Is it even doable?

 

I know that there are plenty of ways to work around this and that yes, AEGs don't push enough air to actually make full use of the crazy jet.

 

But.

 

I'm planning to have around 2.5:1 volume ratio between the cylinder and the inner barrel to yeet away .36 to .40s.

 

Since I'll be having quite a bit of extra air making a bit of turbulence when exiting, I'm thinking that the CJ will diminish that a tiny bit.. enough to make it that much more consistent or less of an issue.

 

Lemme know what your opinions are.

[Adolf Hamster]

afaik the crazy jets have a hybrid cut so it can run in an aeg hop unit using one of the hot shot buckings.

 

that's one way of doing things, but tbh i'd just go with the good ol' macaron with a zci (pdi 6.01 if you're feeling flush and really have the rest of the build dialled in).

 

the r-block the maxx has works just fine with the macaron, so don't need the omega nub with that combo.

[Lozart]

2 hours ago, GPTgo said:

Hello my friendly neighborhood techs..

 

I'm on a mission in which I'm trying to push my skills as a new tech.

 

Has anyone had any luck or even attempted to fit a Crazy Jet barrel into a Maxx Hop Unit with R hop? Is it even doable?

 

I know that there are plenty of ways to work around this and that yes, AEGs don't push enough air to actually make full use of the crazy jet.

 

But.

 

I'm planning to have around 2.5:1 volume ratio between the cylinder and the inner barrel to yeet away .36 to .40s.

 

Since I'll be having quite a bit of extra air making a bit of turbulence when exiting, I'm thinking that the CJ will diminish that a tiny bit.. enough to make it that much more consistent or less of an issue.

 

Lemme know what your opinions are.

 

Yes, it's doable. But you will need a hot shot type bucking to make it fit the hop unit properly. I'd suggest that the macaron route with a decent barrel is easier and will most likely get you as close to R-Hop performance as you'll need any way. Although part of me wonders why you want to be firing 0.4's out of an AEG (unless you're building a DMR maybe)?

[Adolf Hamster]

43 minutes ago, Lozart said:

part of me wonders why you want to be firing 0.4's out of an AEG (unless you're building a DMR maybe)?

 

because it turns airsoft into a point and click adventure

 

tbh, the heavies in a standard assault role isn't the norm mostly for cost rather than performance reasons, they work just fine but firing loads of them gets expensive fast....

[Rogerborg]

Airsofter buys another £500 toy to hang on the wall with the rest of them: "Cool, mate, lovely purchase."

 

Airsofter spends a few extra £££ a day on BBs: "Durr, nobody needs to shoot 0.4g from an AEG, you plonker."

[Lozart]

4 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Airsofter spends a few extra £££ a day on BBs: "Durr, nobody needs to shoot 0.4g from an AEG, you plonker."

 

I was pushing more towards the "you don't need more range, you need to get closer" angle...

[Adolf Hamster]

30 minutes ago, Lozart said:

I was pushing more towards the "you don't need more range, you need to get closer" angle...

 

that's the great thing about airsoft, there's plenty of room for folk to approach the same problem with different angles, lets folk bring what they're good at.

[Lozart]

17 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

that's the great thing about airsoft, there's plenty of room for folk to approach the same problem with different angles, lets folk bring what they're good at.

 

Absolutely.

 

Equally, if we're talking about a full auto RIF (for the sake of example) then 0.4s is getting a bit overkill for my tastes (regardless of the cost). If it's for a DMR then 100% go for it, it makes sense to make the most of the few(er) shots you have. Kind of reminds me of the "I don't want to build a wanker gun, but I want a massive ROF to be a pain hose when people don't take their hits" argument.

[Adolf Hamster]

2 minutes ago, Lozart said:

Kind of reminds me of the "I don't want to build a wanker gun, but I want a massive ROF to be a pain hose when people don't take their hits" argument.

 

can't say i agree there, the 2 aren't comparable.

 

a heavier bb might carry more energy at range, but it will never have more energy than it starts with.

 

and if it's an acceptable level of owch for a pew to hit with [accepted non-MED energy level] then it doesn't matter if that level is delivered point blank by a 0.2g or 0.4g, and any range beyond that both will have less energy.

 

ironically there's a case to be argued against using them for dmr's when a heavy enough bb could carry enough energy at the MED distance to exceed the equivalent limit for a non MED gun.

[GPTgo]

Hahahaha thanks a lot for everyone's time.

 

Yes indeed it is a DMR build.

 

The only reason why I was interested in a Crazy Jet is because I'm planning on a 2.5:1 air volume ratio. Meaning that the gun will be quite over volumed.

 

And this is where we get into the Theory realm:

 

According to some other airsofters, a common issue with over volume guns is that all the extra air that did not have time to accelerate the BB will come out in an unorganized fashion creating turbulence. This turbulence can (allegedly) give a final tiny impulse on the bb in any given direction, meaning that it would fuck up your accuracy.

Therefore i thought that the crazy jet feature would possibly help reduce this alleged turbulence and ait in the reliability of the gun.

 

Am I and everyone else full of shit for believing this? Or do y'all think that it has some truth?

[Adolf Hamster]

18 minutes ago, GPTgo said:

Hahahaha thanks a lot for everyone's time.

 

Yes indeed it is a DMR build.

 

The only reason why I was interested in a Crazy Jet is because I'm planning on a 2.5:1 air volume ratio. Meaning that the gun will be quite over volumed.

 

And this is where we get into the Theory realm:

 

According to some other airsofters, a common issue with over volume guns is that all the extra air that did not have time to accelerate the BB will come out in an unorganized fashion creating turbulence. This turbulence can (allegedly) give a final tiny impulse on the bb in any given direction, meaning that it would fuck up your accuracy.

Therefore i thought that the crazy jet feature would possibly help reduce this alleged turbulence and ait in the reliability of the gun.

 

Am I and everyone else full of shit for believing this? Or do y'all think that it has some truth?

 

you could just not over-volume it?

 

although tbh, i've tended to find aeg's are in-general less sensitive to over-voluming than other platforms. on something like an hpa it's a dramatic difference, but fortunately comes hand in hand with a platform that lets you easily adjust it to get it perfect.

[Rogerborg]

14 hours ago, GPTgo said:

According to some other airsofters, a common issue with over volume guns is that all the extra air that did not have time to accelerate the BB will come out in an unorganized fashion creating turbulence. This turbulence can (allegedly) give a final tiny impulse on the bb in any given direction, meaning that it would fuck up your accuracy.

 

Well, it's certainly possible, but I very much doubt that Some Other Airsofters have done any sort of high speed laminar airflow photography to find out, or even controlled testing in any meaningful sense.  Most airsoft teching seems to be myth, magical thinking, and "works for me".

 

Bear in mind that Crazy Jet and Maxx are in the business of selling products, not doing science.

[Lozart]

16 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

can't say i agree there, the 2 aren't comparable.

 

a heavier bb might carry more energy at range, but it will never have more energy than it starts with.

 

and if it's an acceptable level of owch for a pew to hit with [accepted non-MED energy level] then it doesn't matter if that level is delivered point blank by a 0.2g or 0.4g, and any range beyond that both will have less energy.

 

ironically there's a case to be argued against using them for dmr's when a heavy enough bb could carry enough energy at the MED distance to exceed the equivalent limit for a non MED gun.

 

Fair points, well made. To be honest I hadn't actually thought about that last point.

[Rogerborg]

17 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

ironically there's a case to be argued against using them for dmr's when a heavy enough bb could carry enough energy at the MED distance to exceed the equivalent limit for a non MED gun.

 

And bolties.  With folk now slinging 0.5g of "plastic" around this is becoming less academic, although ultimately we can point at the UK legal definition which is only concerned with muzzle energy.

 

We had a pondering session a while back about how you'd measure energy at 20m+, and never really came up with a workable real-world solution.

[Adolf Hamster]

56 minutes ago, Lozart said:

 

Fair points, well made. To be honest I hadn't actually thought about that last point.

 

Yeah, it depends on the dmr limit and the med, been a while since i looked at the calcs but iirc a 0.5g out of a 2.5j bolt action at 20m was something like 1.3j, but take that with a pinch of salt.

[Hatchet]

Pretty sure this was covered a while back if you search for "Airsoft Trajectory Project" it goes into quite a lot of detail. There's a section specifically on MEDs at different powers, etc.

[Floperator]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

We had a pondering session a while back about how you'd measure energy at 20m+, and never really came up with a workable real-world solution.

 

Well, a chrono, surely? That's how it's done with airguns and centrefire.

Not one of the airsoft chronos with a tube obvs, but one of the open ones like a Shooting Chrony or similar.

[Rogerborg]

13 minutes ago, Floperator said:

Not one of the airsoft chronos with a tube obvs, but one of the open ones like a Shooting Chrony or similar.

 

That... might have been too obvious.   We were on about about pendulums or impact sensors to try and measure the energy directly.

 

Although trying to put rounds through its sensor area at 30m might flaccidate some fantasies about "laser" accuracy.  

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

Yeah, it depends on the dmr limit and the med, been a while since i looked at the calcs but iirc a 0.5g out of a 2.5j bolt action at 20m was something like 1.3j, but take that with a pinch of salt.

 

dug up the old spreadsheet:

if we assume that the site limit is 350fps (1.14j) for non-MED

 

then using 0.5g bb's:

a 440fps (1.8j) dmr is going to need 12.94m MED

a 500fps (2.3j) bolty is going to need 20.28m MED

 

so for the sake of argument if a given site has a 10m MED for 1.8j then a DMR gunner using 0.32g is going to be hitting less at his MED than a rifleman could point blank, but if he used 0.5g (the heaviest available) then he'd be hitting slightly harder.

 

needless to say these are token values using a simplistic drag model, and it'll vary depending on what a given site's limits and accompanying MED's are.

 

ofc it's worth pointing out that whilst in this example we're assuming the MED limited users are perfectly honest and also superhumanly capable of judging exact distances, accidents and kicking mustangs do happen, so needless to say one's protective equipment should be tailored to accommodate the worst possible scenario.

 

1 minute ago, Rogerborg said:

 

That... might have been too obvious.   We were on about about pendulums or impact sensors to try and measure the energy directly.

 

Although trying to put rounds through its sensor area at 30m might flaccidate some fantasies about "laser" accuracy.  

 

tbf, chrono's that measure velocity are perfectly servicable if you know the weight of ammo going through them.

 

direct energy measurement is only needed to catch the ".2's honest guv'" crowd

[Tommikka]

For the approvals testing of First Strike shaped paintballs in 2016 they were measured/tested for ‘lethality’ and ‘frangibility’ by a specialist (Ordnance test solutions)

I don’t know the full details on testing, and am working from my memories of the feedback publicised…..

 

This included ballistic gel & strawboard (I don’t know the thickness) plus high speed cameras

 

https://m.facebook.com/UKPSF/posts/1175569275892475

 

You could use similar things to measure impact such as bare ballistic gel and measure any depth of impact (but then need a baseline to understand what level of energy is indicated between ‘bounce’ and depth of penetration 

 

A hard target plus sensors can measure impact energy, with appropriate calibration, and there’s a name that I can’t think of for ‘impact stickers’ that tell you if a set impact has been exceeded (used when transporting specialist sensitive stuff)

 

Chronographs could be used at set distances, but you want them to be well placed for any ‘reliable’ results so that the BB/projectile passes at the right point 

 

Ultimately a series of synchronised high speed cameras can capture the time it passes each position, then turn that into velocity and then to the energy for that projectile 

 

 

On a legal basis if the muzzle velocity is within limits for the given size/mass then the impact energy is equal to or less than the muzzle velocity

(Unless someone shoots you almost directly downwards and hits your thigh - that gives a combined result of the muzzle velocity plus gravity and a multicoloured thigh)

 

 

(edited for my half sentence)

Edited June 14, 2022 by Tommikka

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

direct energy measurement is only needed to catch the ".2's honest guv'" crowd

 

I guess it depends what the concern is.

 

If it's reality then we should be measuring energy with as few variables as possible.  And testing what people are actually using in the field, not at the chrono station.

 

Anything else is just one form of theatre or another.

[Lozart]

3 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

dug up the old spreadsheet:

if we assume that the site limit is 350fps (1.14j) for non-MED

 

then using 0.5g bb's:

a 440fps (1.8j) dmr is going to need 12.94m MED

a 500fps (2.3j) bolty is going to need 20.28m MED

 

so for the sake of argument if a given site has a 10m MED for 1.8j then a DMR gunner using 0.32g is going to be hitting less at his MED than a rifleman could point blank, but if he used 0.5g (the heaviest available) then he'd be hitting slightly harder.

 

 

Given that I've not been to a site with less than 20m MED for DMRs (30 for BASRs) I'd assume that would comfortably cover any worst case scenarios as far as ludicrously heavy BBs goes?

[Adolf Hamster]

38 minutes ago, Lozart said:

Given that I've not been to a site with less than 20m MED for DMRs (30 for BASRs) I'd assume that would comfortably cover any worst case scenarios as far as ludicrously heavy BBs goes?

 

for those sites yes.

 

i picked those numbers mostly to highlight the potential for the case rather than being strictly representative.

[Lozart]

21 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

for those sites yes.

 

i picked those numbers mostly to highlight the potential for the case rather than being strictly representative.

 

Fair enough, I guess you'd have to use some pretty heavy BBs at those ranges to be anywhere near 1j on impact and I daresay they be so slow you could send written notice of them!

[Rogerborg]

Accidents (actual accidents, not Arec Barwdrin "accidents") do happen though.  I've boltied someone in the bare arm at about 5m when they pointed from behind a building just as I pulled the trigger.  Soooo much "Sorry, mate, my bad, mate".

 

Fortunately it doesn't happen often, and I reckon UK energy levels are actually about right.