13 year old using my old RIF airsoft rifle?

[emcro03]

Hi all,
I last played airsoft about 18 years ago, and had a G36 RIF (all black,looks real) .

 

My son is 13 and now wants to take up airsoft.

 
So my question is, can use use my G36 to play, even though its not two toned, and I don't have an UKARA membership? 

 

So my understanding is right, is UKARA membership only for buying rather than possessing a RIF?

 

Thanks!

[Tackle]

Yep, fine for him to use, & own if you want to gift it to him, just make sure he's aware that he can't flash it around except on sites, & yes ukara is just a retailer scheme. 

[emcro03]

Thanks!

[Rogerborg]

Yup, possession (in private) isn't an offence and needs no defence.  The offences are manufacture, modification, sale or importation, not possession and not even purchase (for 18+).  Gifting or loaning is fine.

 

Possession of an imitation firearm (realistic or otherwise) in public, by anyone, is an offence.  And a UKARA number (or any other scheme) isn't a defence to that. We all need a "reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies with [the person in possession])", i.e. we're on our way to or from an insured airsoft skirmish site.

 

Just watch that he doesn't decide to take it out to the wood to impress his mates, or (a real example from a Facebook fail thread) climbs up on the roof to take some pictures with it.

[EDcase]

Essentially it cannot be seen by the public even in your own property. (Actual case of police being called because a person saw a pistol through a house window)

[Rogerborg]

11 hours ago, EDcase said:

Essentially it cannot be seen by the public even in your own property. (Actual case of police being called because a person saw a pistol through a house window)

 

Well, legally, that's not an issue, so long as you're not threatening anyone with it.

 

But practically, it very much is.  Multiple cases.

 

Police called on film director for a de-activated firearm.

 

Police called and cuff a 12 year old for a 2-tone.

 

And why they do have to treat these reports are real: 13 year old charged with possession of a live handgun, ammunition and silencer.

[Tommikka]

26 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Well, legally, that's not an issue, so long as you're not threatening anyone with it.

 

But practically, it very much is.  Multiple cases.

 

Police called on film director for a de-activated firearm.

 

Police called and cuff a 12 year old for a 2-tone.

 

And why they do have to treat these reports are real: 13 year old charged with possession of a live handgun, ammunition and silencer.

Many years ago on New Year’s Eve after closing Salisbury Vodka bar the owner slept in the bar overnight

The next morning he parked up outside to load up various decorations and his fancy dress - including comedy inflatable AK47

He was joined by Salisbury’s response team after reports of an armed robbery at the Vodka bar

[AirSniper]

On 31/10/2021 at 12:54, Tackle said:

Yep, fine for him to use, & own if you want to gift it to him, just make sure he's aware that he can't flash it around except on sites, & yes ukara is just a retailer scheme. 

Not to own until he is 18, the UK Law is same for RIF's as it is for Air guns and real steel.

Your only deviation is for military personnel, where they can purchase and own a RIF under 18 years of age.

So legally, you are still responsible for the item. 


 

I will go as far as to say that if you gift it, to ensure he is not going to use it without supervision, to buy a trigger lock, so even if he finds the batteries, he can't fire it, its obvious it can't be fired with  a trigger lock on it so no issues if he took it out the front door and someone then calls police as they will likely turn up, see its locked and give a stern word to him and your collar feeling for letting it out of its box.

Because you are legally responsible for what your son does with that RIF, just like an air rifle or real steel.

Police do not mess around either as they will send an ARV to the scene.

Even to an airsoft site where an incident happens with RIF's and say ambulance needs to attend, then ARV goes in first like the story I heard at one site recently where the incident had the ARV teams scrambled to the site.

So acn people here get in their heads

18 years old.

and that is it, over 18, until you break the law for some offence that bars you from using, touching, using or even looking or dreaming about guns, you can own a gun, airgun and RIF up until the courts ban you. 

On a more long term side of thing, if your son did get you in trouble, any future gun or airgun ownership is in jeopardy.

For this reason, my son is not allowed to have any RIF, Airgun or gun at home, even in the gun safe... Why? Because his mum has no concept of what is legal or not. She would allow him to take it to the park, for example, I made it clear that until he is 18, I keep them and control use of them and is 100% supervised.

It is up to you and what you do at the end of the day, gifting it does not remove your responsibility or liability and ownership can not be taken until he is 18 years old.

[Tackle]

5 hours ago, AirSniper said:

Not to own until he is 18, the UK Law is same for RIF's as it is for Air guns and real steel.

Your only deviation is for military personnel, where they can purchase and own a RIF under 18 years of age.

So legally, you are still responsible for the item. 


 

I will go as far as to say that if you gift it, to ensure he is not going to use it without supervision, to buy a trigger lock, so even if he finds the batteries, he can't fire it, its obvious it can't be fired with  a trigger lock on it so no issues if he took it out the front door and someone then calls police as they will likely turn up, see its locked and give a stern word to him and your collar feeling for letting it out of its box.

Because you are legally responsible for what your son does with that RIF, just like an air rifle or real steel.

Police do not mess around either as they will send an ARV to the scene.

Even to an airsoft site where an incident happens with RIF's and say ambulance needs to attend, then ARV goes in first like the story I heard at one site recently where the incident had the ARV teams scrambled to the site.

So acn people here get in their heads

18 years old.

and that is it, over 18, until you break the law for some offence that bars you from using, touching, using or even looking or dreaming about guns, you can own a gun, airgun and RIF up until the courts ban you. 

On a more long term side of thing, if your son did get you in trouble, any future gun or airgun ownership is in jeopardy.

For this reason, my son is not allowed to have any RIF, Airgun or gun at home, even in the gun safe... Why? Because his mum has no concept of what is legal or not. She would allow him to take it to the park, for example, I made it clear that until he is 18, I keep them and control use of them and is 100% supervised.

It is up to you and what you do at the end of the day, gifting it does not remove your responsibility or liability and ownership can not be taken until he is 18 years old.

You sure ?, I can't say I've read the "small print" enough to disagree with you, but I know some guys who do, & @Rogerborg@rocketdogbert will be along shortly to settle it🤔

[Rogerborg]

6 hours ago, AirSniper said:

Not to own until he is 18, the UK Law is same for RIF's as it is for Air guns and real steel.

 

Yup, sorry, but I'm going to have to flag up [citation needed] on that.  This isn't intended as personal, just an examination of the law as it's written and demonstrably applied.

 

We'll start with Policing and Crime Act 1968 Section 125 which amends the Firearms Act 1968 by saying that airsoft guns are not firearms for the purposes of that Act.  One notable exception is Section 19 which specifically mentions imitation firearms, and 24A (below).

 

We could have a bun-fight over whether the multiple mention of "air weapons" in the Firearms Act still apply to airsoft guns, even if they're not "firearms". 

 

That could be problematic, since Section 24 does prohibit gifting "air weapons" to anyone under 18.  It says nothing about their ownership of it though.  The recipient commits no offence.  In any case, we should argue strenuously against "air weapon" covering airsoft guns, since Section 1 (3) (b) defines an "air weapon" as a subset of "firearm", not as a separate category.

 

If we continue with "air weapon" offences, Section 24Z prohibits minors from "having with them" an air weapon.  In that case, they just need to be supervised by someone over 21, as per Section 23.  Still nothing about ownership though.

 

Supply of imitation firearms (realistic or otherwise) to minors is entirely relevant.  That's covered by Firearms Act Section 24A which talks only about sale and purchase, not loans, gifts or ownership. 

 

And as we should all be familiar with by now, VCRA 2006 S36 covers manufacture, modification, importation and sale, not purchase, possession or ownership.

 

 

6 hours ago, AirSniper said:

Your only deviation is for military personnel, where they can purchase and own a RIF under 18 years of age.

 

Purchase is covered by Firearms Act S24A which provides no such defence for purchase by minors.  However, again, being gifted or loaned or owning one is not an offence.

 

The VCRA S36 offence has an S37 defence of "the purposes of functions that a person has in his capacity as a person in the service of Her Majesty". But that applies only to the S36 offences of manufacture, modification, importation and sale, not purchase or ownership, and is not a defence to the Firearms Act S24A offence of minors purchasing (but not owning) an imitation firearm (realistic or otherwise).

 

 

6 hours ago, AirSniper said:

I will go as far as to say that if you gift it, to ensure he is not going to use it without supervision, to buy a trigger lock, so even if he finds the batteries, he can't fire it, its obvious it can't be fired with  a trigger lock on it so no issues if he took it out the front door and someone then calls police as they will likely turn up, see its locked and give a stern word to him and your collar feeling for letting it out of its box.

 

I agree that it's a responsible thing to do, but whether it can shoot or not is immaterial to the Firearms Act 1968 S19 offence (ibid) of possession of an imitation firearm in a public place, realistic or otherwise, functional or otherwise.

 

See this case, of a bright orange springer. The Sheriff's rather curious comment was that children would have a reasonable excuse for being in possession of an IF (but not necessarily a RIF) for the purposes of (I quote) "playing cowboys and Indians".  But that's entirely about the appearance, not the functionality.

 

 

6 hours ago, AirSniper said:

Because you are legally responsible for what your son does with that RIF, just like an air rifle or real steel.

 

Only if it's classed as an air weapon (and I'd argue that it's not), then Firearms Act S24Z applies.  But I can find no such responsibility applying to imitation firearm offences.

 

 

6 hours ago, AirSniper said:

For this reason, my son is not allowed to have any RIF, Airgun or gun at home, even in the gun safe... Why? Because his mum has no concept of what is legal or not. She would allow him to take it to the park, for example, I made it clear that until he is 18, I keep them and control use of them and is 100% supervised.

 

Despite everything I'm writing here, I do completely agree with this principle.  The practical consequences of an ARV turning up are quite distinct from the legal ones.

 

 

6 hours ago, AirSniper said:

gifting it does not remove your responsibility or liability and ownership can not be taken until he is 18 years old.

 

I can find no offences being committed.

 

If they exist, they're likely to be in the Firearms Act 1968, Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, or Policing and Crime Act 2017, although firearm legislation is a right old mess, and I'm always happy to be surprised by other sources.

 

Can we find any relevant offences here?

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/contents

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/contents

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/contents

 

 

[Tommikka]

7 hours ago, AirSniper said:

Your only deviation is for military personnel, where they can purchase and own a RIF under 18 years of age.

 

Based on what?

The only RIF defence for the military is the defence under para 37.2.f:

 

the purposes of functions that a person has in his capacity as a person in the service of Her Majesty.

 

This does not mean a member of the services may purchase a RIF.  It means that someone may purchase a RIF due to their employment - eg QM 1st Blankshires can tell his staff to purchase some SA80 airsoft guns for some drill/familiarisation.  (Though if he did then it would often make sense to buy two tones anyway so that it is clear that they are IFs and not the real ones)

Potentially Private Smith might want to buy a RIF SA80 to ‘practice’ at home and use the 37.2.f defence to justify that.

His SNCOs might decide to keep an eye on him for that for ‘over keenness’

 

 

 

 

 

[Tackle]

@AirSniper but I do agree with the principle of keeping control of our "kids" Airsoft guns, irrespective of what the law is, my son first played when he was about 10, & he was alway told his kit can never leave the house, nor can he ever have any bb's or batteries with them, which I keep under lock & key in a gun cabinet in the garage, its worked well so far, he's 24 now lol 🤣

[Tommikka]

8 hours ago, AirSniper said:

 

I will go as far as to say that if you gift it, to ensure he is not going to use it without supervision, to buy a trigger lock, so even if he finds the batteries, he can't fire it, its obvious it can't be fired with  a trigger lock on it so no issues if he took it out the front door and someone then calls police as they will likely turn up, see its locked and give a stern word to him and your collar feeling for letting it out of its box.

 

Trigger locks aren’t much of a solution - for the exact reasons you’ve given in the example

 

It can’t be fired but he can get into all of the trouble before the lock is found 

The opinion of the police as a control would be to locking it up away from children

 

Following the death of a child with an airgun legislation was brought in for the new offence of not securing air weapons  if there is any potential access to the building by minors. (£1000 fine if a minor gains access)

Police recommendations are to use gun cabinets, but this isn’t a requirement as long as it is secure.  Eg in a locked case/bag

 

Airsoft RIFs are no longer air weapons so the £1000 fine may not apply, but the intent of the law to prevent avoidable tragedy is the same 

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-offence-keeps-airguns-under-lock-and-key

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/air-weapons-a-brief-guide-to-safety-jan-2011/air-weapons-a-brief-guide-to-safety#preventing-children-from-accessing-air-weapons

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Tackle said:

but I do agree with the principle of keeping control of our "kids" Airsoft guns, irrespective of what the law is, my son first played when he was about 10, & he was alway told his kit can never leave the house, nor can he ever have any bb's or batteries with them, which I keep under lock & key in a gun cabinet in the garage

 

Yup, I want to be super clear that I respectfully disagree with @AirSniper's interpretation of the law, but 100% agree with how we should treat RIFs - or even IFs, remember the 12 year old who got his door put in and cuffed because a passerby saw his two-tone through a window.

 

I was coming home from a game on Sunday and was overtaken by a speeding police van ignoring a temporary speed limit.  Normally I'd race them just for shits and giggles ("Where's the fire, constable?"), but thought better of it because I had a boot (almost literally) full of RIFs, BFGs and such.  

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

 

I was coming home from a game on Sunday and was overtaken by a speeding police van ignoring a temporary speed limit.  Normally I'd race them just for shits and giggles ("Where's the fire, constable?"), but thought better of it because I had a boot (almost literally) full of RIFs, BFGs and such.  

They may have needed your assistance on a call out 

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, Tommikka said:

They may have needed your assistance on a call out 

 

I'm always happy to help the boys in blue convert their 5x5x5 intel to the new 3x5x2 system.  Just my civic duty.