E and L Gen 2 Gearbox

[Speedbird_666]

I'll try and keep this short:

 

- Purchased an unused E&L Gen 2 AK from these forums.

- No complaints about the seller, excellent service - and the gun was as-new on arrival. Needed a couple things tightening up, but I believe this common with E&L.

- Arrived last week, finally got a Deans connector soldered-up today (been busy).

- Gearbox is loud. I know LCTs can be, was not expecting it from E&L. I can't place the loudness, but I don't think it's the shimming as such. I'm not talking muzzle-end noise, but the operation of the GB itself.

- The spring makes an intermittent loud and pronounced 'twanging' noise on cycle completion.

- The gun is a little slow in full auto (11-12 RPS) with a fresh 7.4v.

- Turns over OK in Semi, although it feels a tiny bit laboured.

- Tried an 11.1v LiPo at storage capacity (~11v) - constant over-spin double-shots.

 

So my questions to E&L owners: is the above 'normal' OOTB performance for E&L guns?

 

If the answer is yes, then I can say that it's a bit disappointing, as the CYMA CM.045 that I sold (to fund this) felt significantly better to shoot - snappy, decent ROF (15RPS with 7.4 LiPo, stock GB internals and SHS HT Motor) and was considerably quieter.

 

I'll probably ditch the stock (22TPA?) motor for an SHS HT and crack the GB open over the weekend to check the shimming. But so far......meh.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Speedbird_666

[Asomodai]

Take the spring out and coat it in some sort of grease to prevent the twangy sound. Unfortunately the stock E&L Spring for UK spec rifles are incredibly short and can cause this. 

 

As for the noise, it's likely shimming/motor height. Loosen the pistol grip initially and see if the sound is any different.

 

The stock motor is Neo and really very good, you wont see much of an upgrade with the SHS if any. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Asomodai

[Speedbird_666]

2 hours ago, Asomodai said:

Take the spring out and coat it in some sort of grease to prevent the twangy sound. Unfortunately the stock E&L Spring for UK spec rifles are incredibly short and can cause this. 

 

As for the noise, it's likely shimming/motor height. Loosen the pistol grip initially and see if the sound is any different.

 

The stock motor is Neo and really very good, you wont see much of an upgrade with the SHS if any. 

 

Thanks.

 

I've got a bunch of longer M100 springs, I'll swap the stock one out and give it a go. I'm going to check the shimming/motor height at the same time.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

2 hours ago, Asomodai said:

Take the spring out and coat it in some sort of grease to prevent the twangy sound. Unfortunately the stock E&L Spring for UK spec rifles are incredibly short and can cause this. 

 

As for the noise, it's likely shimming/motor height. Loosen the pistol grip initially and see if the sound is any different.

 

The stock motor is Neo and really very good, you wont see much of an upgrade with the SHS if any. 

 

pretty much this.

 

it'll still twang in semi even with an aftermarket spring, but a precocking mosfet will sort that out no problem.

 

i agree on the stock motor, it's very good certainly equivalent to the likes of the asg basic you get in an evo.

 

has the previous owner worked on it? of the brand new ones i've seen they're really quite smooth ootb but that's a small enough sample size not to be conclusive.

 

what length are we talking? a krink length could be you're getting barrel pop?

[Speedbird_666]

13 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

pretty much this.

 

it'll still twang in semi even with an aftermarket spring, but a precocking mosfet will sort that out no problem.

 

i agree on the stock motor, it's very good certainly equivalent to the likes of the asg basic you get in an evo.

 

has the previous owner worked on it? of the brand new ones i've seen they're really quite smooth ootb but that's a small enough sample size not to be conclusive.

 

what length are we talking? a krink length could be you're getting barrel pop?

 

I might go down the WarFET route, I have a couple of Nano ASRs still in their boxes that I could use as a placeholder (wiring wise) until I can put down the cash for a WarFET and programming card.

 

I checked with the previous owner - it was only a wall-hanger and he was flogging off his (mostly E&L) AK collection, there's no evidence of disassembly at all, other than a pistol grip swap.

 

It's slightly longer than krink length, I did wonder if it's over-volumed, but after watching a couple of breakdowns, including the exact model I have, I'm not so sure:

 

Basically, it just doesn't feel as smooth or effortless to turn over compared to my previous CYMA. I was expecting...better.

 

Perhaps it's just my example. I'll strip it and check it over internally. I do like the fact that I don't have to remove the outer barrel/front-end to get the GB out.

[Adolf Hamster]

2 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

I might go down the WarFET route, I have a couple of Nano ASRs still in their boxes that I could use as a placeholder (wiring wise) until I can put down the cash for a WarFET and programming card.

 

 

warfet is a good shout, although it may still twang after a burst in auto if it settles in the wrong position.

 

3 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

It's slightly longer than krink length, I did wonder if it's over-volumed, but after watching a couple of breakdowns, including the exact model I have, I'm not so sure:

 

 

105 length then? if that's the stock cylinder should be close enough, the compression tends to be pretty good on the stock hardware although the pistons aren't the greatest.

 

you will need to adjust the aoe if you move from the stock mushroom head to a more conventional head, the mushroom is a bit thicker than normal.

 

5 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Basically, it just doesn't feel as smooth or effortless to turn over compared to my previous CYMA. I was expecting...better.

 

i have a suspicion, although no proof, that harder gearbox materials in e&l dampen everything down less, would explain why lct boxes are so damn noisy despite the shells being pretty decently made (just a shame the contents of the lct boxes aren't so good)

 

ofc could still be things like shimming, or even just letting it bed in a bit, but sounds like gear whine isn't so much the problem.

[Speedbird_666]

Well, this doesn't bode well. The plastic centre bit was floating around inside the spring coils. The inside is mulched. Wonderful.

 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

5 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Well, this doesn't bode well. The plastic centre bit was floating around inside the spring coils. The inside is mulched. Wonderful.

 

 

 

 

well that's a new one

 

how was it meant to be attached? i've never figured out how you're supposed to remove it intentionally.

[Skara]

2 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

how was it meant to be attached? i've never figured out how you're supposed to remove it intentionally.

Aren't they just press fitted together?

[Adolf Hamster]

Just now, Skara said:

Aren't they just press fitted together?

 

i've had some guides that were threaded, or had a bolt hidden in one end or the other.

 

press fit does make sense.

[Speedbird_666]

The end of the metal inner piece that holds the bearing is ‘barbed’ at the end so to speak, with the plastic guide having an internal lip to hold it on after being press-fit together.

 

Problem is, that internal lip is no more.

 

I’m going to try and epoxy it back on, leaving a small gap to allow the bearing to rotate, but I’m not holding much hope that it’ll hold.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Speedbird_666

[Speedbird_666]

Ok, might of worked it out.

 

When the spring guide stopped...guiding...the base was allowed to move about when the gun was firing. This caused a bit of damage to the casing, sending metal shards everywhere, including the gears and piston o-ring. Luckily no damage was done to any other components.

 

 

The gearbox was absolutely caked in what can only be described as earwax for grease. The gears would barely move. So, gave it a good clean and re-grease - they now spin freely in the GB case, with a minor tweak to the shimming.

 

Just re-assembling now (fuck you V3 triggers).

 

 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

22 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Ok, might of worked it out.

 

When the spring guide stopped...guiding...the base was allowed to move about when the gun was firing. This caused a bit of damage to the casing, sending metal shards everywhere, including the gears and piston o-ring. Luckily no damage was done to any other components.

 

 

The gearbox was absolutely caked in what can only be described as earwax for grease. The gears would barely move. So, gave it a good clean and re-grease - they now spin freely in the GB case, with a minor tweak to the shimming.

 

earwax does sound like the dried up box of a wallhanger.

 

23 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Just re-assembling now (fuck you V3 triggers).

 

just don't remove it and it's fine....

[Iceni]

With it been a V3 watch the tappet plate like a hawk. It's possible to overshim upwards on the sector and cause the tappet to start to rub, I've had it where that rubbing only happens with the tappet fully back, Meaning it acts as a gearbox break.

V3 spring guides are easy to get, I'd just order a new one and be done with it rather than trying to make a bad one good.

As for the triggers - lol it's an acquired skill but once you have it they just drop back in. I normally find V3's are far easier to work on than V2's as you don't have the wires to worry about.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Iceni

[Speedbird_666]

4 minutes ago, Iceni said:

V3 spring guides are easy to get, I'd just order a new one and be done with it rather than trying to make a bad one good.

 

Unfortunately, it's an E&L Gen2 with a QD Gearbox. It means that I have to buy another E&L QD Spring Guide, or a new GB shell altogether.

 

Problem is - I can't find a UK stockist for the spring guide.

[Skara]

24 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

Unfortunately, it's an E&L Gen2 with a QD Gearbox. It means that I have to buy another E&L QD Spring Guide, or a new GB shell altogether.

 

Problem is - I can't find a UK stockist for the spring guide.

You sure?

I think it's just a regular QD guide.

 

But anyway, apart from the trigger, V3 boxes are incredibly easy to work with compared to V2s.

Heck, you could even run a V3 without a body, since the motor and hop chamber are bolted onto the gearbox

[Iceni]

Looks like a regular 2 post QD guide to me... AK2M4 have them in stock.

https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/spring-guides/zci-spring-guide-stainless-steel-qd-gearbox

 

At the very worst you'll have to file the edges a touch to fit the hole.... It's not a big issue.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Iceni

[Speedbird_666]

2 minutes ago, Iceni said:

Looks like a regular 2 post QD guide to me... AK2M4 have them in stock.

https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/spring-guides/zci-spring-guide-stainless-steel-qd-gearbox

 

At the very worst you'll have to file the edges a touch to fit the hole.... It's not a big issue.

Thanks, I had spotted the ZCI QD Guide after @Skara’s post, I’ll order one in the morning and give it a go. 

[Speedbird_666]

So I've made a temporary repair to the Spring Guide (added a wrap of electric tape to metal inner part) so I can check that the rest of the GB is working OK. I've got a ZCI one on the way.

 

Good news is that it sounds and turns over so much better than before.

 

Bad news is that it blew a load of metal filings out of the gap around the QD spring guide. The guide is pounding the hell out of the back of the gearbox on firing, wearing it away.

 

So I can say with some certainty, that the stock spring is far too short, so short that it is barely compressed at all in the piston-forward position. This means that there is not enough pressure on the spring guide to keep it firmly seated when firing - you can watch it jump around when doing so.

 

A change to a 'normal' M100 spring, which actually sticks out of the end of the gearbox and needs some force to insert (uh...phrasing) seems to have fixed the problem, spring guide is now static and no more twanging!

 

I wouldn't be surprise if the short spring caused the spring guide failure in the first place.

 

Thanks all.

 

 

[Skara]

On 11/03/2021 at 11:07, Speedbird_666 said:

I wouldn't be surprise if the short spring caused the spring guide failure in the first place.

Yup that's why.

The guide-spring-piston system needs to have a little bit of tension at all times.

In v2 boxes it's not a really big issue since the spring guide is kept in place by the buffer tube screw, but in an AK the guide isn't held by anything but spring pressure..

[Speedbird_666]

1 hour ago, Skara said:

Yup that's why.

The guide-spring-piston system needs to have a little bit of tension at all times.

In v2 boxes it's not a really big issue since the spring guide is kept in place by the buffer tube screw, but in an AK the guide isn't held by anything but spring pressure..

 

Yep, especially with QD spring guides.

 

But the amount of damage it did to the GB shell was quite eye-opening. I wonder how many other E&L users are having the same issue without them realising, gradually filling their GB with metal confetti.

 

Speaking of which, the ZCI QD Guide I ordered was a straight drop-in fit. Looks slightly misaligned in this picture, but that's the crappy stock Specna Edge spring I had lying around that I used for testing, brand new but kinked in the middle. I will be buying something of better quality shortly.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Speedbird_666

[Skara]

1 hour ago, Speedbird_666 said:

I wonder how many other E&L users are having the same issue without them realising, gradually filling their GB with metal confetti.

Last time I took mine apart, it was fine, albeit the spring is kinda shorter than usual (because the guys @gunfire nicked it off to stay below 1J)

Will check again as soon as my parts arrive, I wanted to replace the spring anyway as it's a bit on the low side (around 0.75J)..

[Adolf Hamster]

i've not had any issues with disintegrating spring guides on the e&l's, but it's good to know the ZCI is a drop-in replacement if i ever do.

[DerDer]

5 hours ago, Skara said:

Yup that's why.

The guide-spring-piston system needs to have a little bit of tension at all times.

In v2 boxes it's not a really big issue since the spring guide is kept in place by the buffer tube screw, but in an AK the guide isn't held by anything but spring pressure..

There are certain after market attempts to rectify this. One example is retro arms have a screw that attaches. Problem is it can make the gearbox too long to fit in certain bodies. The one in the photos fits in a LCT body but won't fit a King Arms body.