Comfort levels in CQB

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

Thought experiment: Is everyone who's against prefiring OK with posting paper pyro round a corner, through a window, over a hill, up some stairs? Just as much chance for you to hit someone not equipped to be on the receiving end - no clue if they're wearing eye/earpro, their specific position, etc.

[Sawyer]

3 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Thought experiment: Is everyone who's against prefiring OK with posting paper pyro round a corner, through a window, over a hill, up some stairs? Just as much chance for you to hit someone not equipped to be on the receiving end - no clue if they're wearing eye/earpro, their specific position, etc.

Yeah, because that pyro ain't gonna be shooting at 350fps. 

 

I always wear earpro now, doesn't matter if you're expecting a BFG/paper pyro or not, it's still loud.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

5 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

Yeah, because that pyro ain't gonna be shooting at 350fps.

I don't see how FPS factors in here. What you've described is a normal interaction in an airsoft game - one person shooting another.

 

I was trying to highlight inherent levels of risk - imo, chucking pyro is blindfiring.

 

If your Mk5 as a shorter than normal fuse, and the sick trajectory you pull off chucking it *blind* into a room hits someone in the face and goes off, they're deaf, temporarily (maybe permanently!) blind.

 

 

[Musica]

4 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Thought experiment: Is everyone who's against prefiring OK with posting paper pyro round a corner, through a window, over a hill, up some stairs? Just as much chance for you to hit someone not equipped to be on the receiving end - no clue if they're wearing eye/earpro, their specific position, etc.

 

We aren't allowed to drop pyro through a window without looking down for fear there might be someone crouched or prone under it. And if you throw pyro above knee height your getting a talking to by a marshal paper or metal. 

[Sawyer]

9 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

I don't see how FPS factors in here. What you've described is a normal interaction in an airsoft game - one person shooting another.

 

I was trying to highlight inherent levels of risk - imo, chucking pyro is blindfiring.

 

If your Mk5 as a shorter than normal fuse, and the sick trajectory you pull off chucking it *blind* into a room hits someone in the face and goes off, they're deaf, temporarily (maybe permanently!) blind.

 

 

I don't throw at head height anyway, paper or otherwise. 

 

I can't see how you're gonna blind someone with a pyro when they're wearing eye pro tbh. I doubt the pyro we have access to have that sort of power.

 

I've had a mk5 go off right next to me, before I used ear pro. Yeah my ears rang for a while, and it encouraged me to protect my hearing but I was far from deaf.

 

And the fps thing is because a pyro isn't going to go inserting itself into my cheek. A BB will, happily, at extreme close range.

 

And going back to the tactics/skill thing. It's harder to throw a grenade well, than it is to spam a trigger as you pass a corner.

[Musica]

5 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

I don't throw at head height anyway, paper or otherwise. 

 

I can't see how you're gonna blind someone with a pyro when they're wearing eye pro tbh. I doubt the pyro we have access to have that sort of power.

 

I've had a mk5 go off right next to me, before I used ear pro. Yeah my ears rang for a while, and it encouraged me to protect my hearing but I was far from deaf.

 

And the fps thing is because a pyro isn't going to go inserting itself into my cheek. A BB will, happily, at extreme close range.

 

And going back to the tactics/skill thing. It's harder to throw a grenade well, than it is to spam a trigger as you pass a corner.

My site always says the reason they tell us to keep it low is if it got inside someones hood then that is a safety issue for the individual. 

 

I'd like to add I have hit people with my BFG by accident but the impacts have always been knee height or lower. I dropped it on to a guys boot once. 

We could play a grenade only game with pyro and bfgs and no one would need eye protection (they should probably wear some ear protection tho)  so I don't see how this discussion is relevant to the pre fire corners "tactic". 

[Sawyer]

2 minutes ago, Musica said:

My site always says the reason they tell us to keep it low is if it got inside someones hood then that is a safety issue for the individual. 

 

I'd like to add I have hit people with my BFG by accident but the impacts have always been knee height or lower. I dropped it on to a guys boot once. 

We could play a grenade only game with pyro and bfgs and no one would need eye protection (they should probably wear some ear protection tho)  so I don't see how this discussion is relevant to the pre fire corners "tactic". 

Agreed. The Gaol is hot on that stuff, and I've never once felt like pyros or BFGs constitute a safety issue. 

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

4 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

I can't see how you're gonna blind someone with a pyro when they're wearing eye pro tbh. I doubt the pyro we have access to have that sort of power.

 

I've had a mk5 go off right next to me, before I used ear pro. Yeah my ears rang for a while, and it encouraged me to protect my hearing but I was far from deaf.

 

And the fps thing is because a pyro isn't going to go inserting itself into my cheek. A BB will, happily, at extreme close range.

If you're looking into a Mk5 while it's point-blank in your face you'll suffer temporarily blindness 100% - it's happened to me!

 

Fair point on the deafness, though at the db rating they've got it's definitely at permanent hearing loss level, i.e. deafened not deaf.

 

Re: this and @Musica's post below:

 

" We could play a grenade only game with pyro and bfgs and no one would need eye protection (they should probably wear some ear protection tho)  so I don't see how this discussion is relevant to the pre fire corners "tactic".  "

 

My point is that essentially they have the same levels of risk from a safety perspective. You will always be risking, assuming you're not throwing a pyro at someone in your full view at all times, of injuring or harming someone who was not in the position to receive what you're throwing (or firing) at them - the definition of blindfire and I thought I should point that out considering one of the main points that started this was defining blindfire etc.

 

Where I'll probably ruffle feathers further is saying that, despite that inherent risk I don't consider it a high enough level of risk on both sides. i.e. - chances are, more likely than not you're not going to prefire on someone who is happening to be facing the corridor with their goggles off, nor are you going to be chucking pyro in such a fashion that it explodes perfectly in someone's face. There's a way to prefire properly, imo, and a way to do it poorly/unsportingly.

 

Trigger spam is a separate issue imo. You get just as much trigger spamming from people in the open, I don't think it's exclusive to prefiring. If I prefire on a corner I'm pretty sure someone's at, I'll be firing a few shots to cover the corner before moving in.

[Sawyer]

I suppose for me both things are much less about the safety aspect, more them being in the spirit of the game.

 

Throwing grenades is in the spirit of the game, everyone likes a loud bang and a bit of atmosphere.

 

Most people don't like having others running around blindfiring or prefiring corners. There's a difference between that and suppressing someone for sure. 

 

I often find trigger spam and pre firing come hand in hand, and neither are needed indoors. Outdoors it's not great, but at least you can understand you've got to account for 50% of your BBs being blown off course.

[Musica]

7 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

Agreed. The Gaol is hot on that stuff, and I've never once felt like pyros or BFGs constitute a safety issue. 

 

28 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

I was trying to highlight inherent levels of risk - imo, chucking pyro is blindfiring.

 

I think that it's true that pyro is inherently blind firing as  if you can see where it lands you should also be dead so we all poke it around hard cover in to the mostly "unknown".  I don't think correct pyro usage however is a safety concern. It should never be close to your face unless your crouched or proned and the mk5s fuses are so long that I've never had issues turning away and covering my ears. 

 

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

 

3 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

I suppose for me both things are much less about the safety aspect, more them being in the spirit of the game.

 

Throwing grenades is in the spirit of the game, everyone likes a loud bang and a bit of atmosphere.

 

Most people don't like having others running around blindfiring or prefiring corners. There's a difference between that and suppressing someone for sure. 

 

I often find trigger spam and pre firing come hand in hand, and neither are needed indoors. Outdoors it's not great, but at least you can understand you've got to account for 50% of your BBs being blown off course.

 

Yeah I would roughly agree with that tbh.

 

Worth noting there's a sliding scale for prefiring - At Longmoor for example, if I'm 1st in a group moving into a house we know is manned by the opposition, I'll def be prefiring certain corners I've always gotten caught out on. I don't see the problem with that, as the opposition has the chance to prefire themselves - moving out of the position to slice the pie before I can. Only ever fire 2ish shots though.

[Tommikka]

All forms of pyro do still come with some form of risk, and I wouldn’t recommend a pyro only game without still having eye protection

 

Blank firing grenades etc do accommodate much of the blast with noise and exhaust gasses, (the greater risk is the lump of metal being thrown)

But if you bear in mind tbsp ‘ballistic’ eye protection in real life is intended to protect from gasses, dust and debris then they are just what you could get from a close by grenade.

 

Paper based pyro has similar exhaust gases which are directed by the grenade design and may have ripped paper and/or other debris entering the air

 

If you read the safety instructions on pyro you will find they don’t recommend throwing them around etc - when we are playing our games we are breaching many of the recommendations 

(The most key instruction is found on Enola Gaye products - don’t be a dick)

 

Personally I’ve blown myself up many times, have a team mate who was caught in a photo sequence disappearing in a cloud of smoke and destroying his glove due to a faulty mk9 flash bang manufactured in a factory with sloppy processes, and I spent one occasion protecting a Disney princess in a tower throwing back flash bangs, and on one occasion I breathed in probably far too many chemicals hiding in a small smoke filled room listening and waiting to ambush the oncoming opposition 

 

 

Use is dependant on the location and circumstances but there is a very real risk of blind style use of pyro.  Low risk but still the small risk, hopefully anyone who does lose their eye pro at the wrong time only gets some dust in their eye

1 hour ago, Skara said:

 

Marshal? Always shoot the marshal. Marshal is evil and eats toddlers for breakfast.

 

 

First person I ever shot on site was a marshal

Serves him right for walking through a bush

2 hours ago, Sawyer said:

Pre firing ruins airsoft tbh. I'm sure people do it in speedsoft all the time, but I'm sure most people prefer airsoft over say, paintball, because it's slightly more realistic. 

 

No point using any sort of coordinated tactics if Mr DSG comes sprinting around the corner spamming his trigger, having already put 329 BBs into the wall before he finally sets his sights on you.

 

2 hours ago, Sawyer said:

1 - That requires no skill, other than being able to move your fingers quickly, and no degree of accuracy. As others have pointed out, by the time you've seen what's the other side of the solid object you've already put several BBs towards it.

 

2 - In CQB wind and other environmental factors are much less pronounced. 

 

3 - I've never done a milsim in my life (not yet anyway), but that trigger spam nonsense is what speedsoft was made for, surely? 

Just trigger spamming may not require any skill, but doing it properly does

 

If you’re around a corner and you hear BBs hitting the wall or pallet and getting louder then you know someone is coming, as the BBs come round you get the trajectory and position yourself to shoot as they come in line them before they draw the fire onto you

A skilled speedsofter should be able to approach and shoot their stream at the right moment preventing you from effectively reacting 

 

 

In real life this would be suppressive fire, and also was the final action in real life in Afghanistan with repeated attempts to breach a door in a speed soft style - ended up with a posthumous medal but saving lives

[Robert James]

Paper grenades were thrown everywhere when I played at mall. Great fun. Unlucky if it's next to you.

 

Pre firing a corner is horse shit

 

Suppressive fire when you know without doubt somebody is there is a helpful tactic when helping team mates progress. 

[Musica]

59 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Just trigger spamming may not require any skill, but doing it properly does

 

If you’re around a corner and you hear BBs hitting the wall or pallet and getting louder then you know someone is coming, as the BBs come round you get the trajectory and position yourself to shoot as they come in line them before they draw the fire onto you

A skilled speedsofter should be able to approach and shoot their stream at the right moment preventing you from effectively reacting 

 

 

In real life this would be suppressive fire, and also was the final action in real life in Afghanistan with repeated attempts to breach a door in a speed soft style - ended up with a posthumous medal but saving lives

 

I see people at my site complain about "speedsofters" the guys they complain about are 1 tapping them but it's unfair because of their "hair trigger". It's not speed soft that pisses people of it's cunts playing like cunts. 

Take a look at this footage of a speedsoft player. Does anyone have an issue with the way he is playing?  He suppressing fires about once near some barrels, 1 or 2 taps most people.  Tracks his targets, fires while he is moving and his target is.  He certainly isn't yeeting every corner and is very much doing some good work. Near the end of the video there is a few questionable shots at real high speed I would call pre-firing based on the footage we seen but he might have heard them, seen them moving in to cover etc.   It's certainly not the second videos style of play. 

 

 

 

[Sawyer]

32 minutes ago, Musica said:

It's not speed soft that pisses people of it's cunts playing like cunts.

Spot on. I know I've mentioned it a few times, but I agree. 

 

Like I said earlier, spirit of the game. It's a game based on honesty and a bit of respect. The guy in the latter video has no idea of either of those concepts. The first video is good play. He fires when he has his sights on target.

[Skara]

And we are officially back to the Stone Age with the speedsoft hate.

[MAX DICKER]

3 hours ago, Musica said:

 

We aren't allowed to drop pyro through a window without looking down for fear there might be someone crouched or prone under it. And if you throw pyro above knee height your getting a talking to by a marshal paper or metal. 

 

Funnily enough that's exactly what happened to my ex. She was crouched down under a window and someone posted a bfg and it hit her head and singed her hair. She wasn't actually hurt but goddamn did she put on a performance.

 

Funny thing is the guy who posted it thought I was in that room (I had been up until about 2 minutes before the incident)

[Sawyer]

15 minutes ago, Skara said:

And we are officially back to the Stone Age with the speedsoft hate.

I mean, we aren't. Last two posts are appreciating speedsoft played well in that first video.

 

The second video is just an obnoxious dick who happens to be a speedsofter.

 

I'm not gonna lie, it's not my cup of tea, I'd just play paintball if it was, but I can appreciate the skill presented by the bloke in the first video.

[Skara]

11 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

I mean, we aren't. Last two posts are appreciating speedsoft played well in that first video.

 

The second video is just an obnoxious dick who happens to be a speedsofter.

 

I'm not gonna lie, it's not my cup of tea, I'd just play paintball if it was, but I can appreciate the skill presented by the bloke in the first video.

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but they are not only 2 completely different styles, they're from 2 completely different continents.

 

OOF Airsoft is a UK team, which plays by the UK rules.

 

OC Airsoft (the DSG Justice guy) is from the US o(o)f A. Different rules, different fps/J limits. Different mindset really.

 

So what is a dick move to us Europeans may be 100% fine for them.

 

From what I recall OC is playing at Game Pod, which is a very well known field in the US (should be the largest indoor airsoft site in the whole planet) and, sadly, very well known for people not calling their hits, hence the dumb videos.

 

 

Anyway my point stands, prefiring a corner knowing there is an opponent on the other side is fine. Scares him so he tries to hide rathern than preparing a shot on you.

 

Prefiring a corner for the sake of doing so is just a waste of bbs and gives away your position.

But it's also fine for me, I mean, you want to waste ammo and let the whole field know you're there? Be my guest.

 

Already said what the dick move is imo.

[MAX DICKER]

I think its been mentioned before in this thread but ammo limits seem to be a good way to solve a lot of issues

[Skara]

1 minute ago, MAX DICKER said:

I think its been mentioned before in this thread but ammo limits seem to be a good way to solve a lot of issues

Milsims have ammo limits, but still there's a lot of overshooting going on (just check one of Jet's videos on his milsim adventures).

 

It's not the ammo count, it's the mindset

[PopRocket123]

1 hour ago, Skara said:

Milsims have ammo limits, but still there's a lot of overshooting going on (just check one of Jet's videos on his milsim adventures).

 

It's not the ammo count, it's the mindset

Milsim attracts a very different type of dick though. Where "speedsofters" (we need a different name to differentiate between the actual speedsofters and the dicks) are more "win at all costs", the milsim dick tends to be more focused on fulfilling their own power fantasies, hence the elitism and tantrums. A good example of this is one of Airsoft Alfonse's recent videos where someone started shouting and swearing at him for throwing a grenade through a door the enemy team was barricading and holding the door shut

[Badgerlicious]

SpeedTwats and MilTwats.

[MAX DICKER]

32 minutes ago, Badgerlicious said:

SpeedTwats and MilTwats.

 

Don't forget us CasualTwats

[Badgerlicious]

The RenTwats are a special breed.