Bullpup DMR AEG?

[Defender90]

I've got questions re DMRs.

Are they worth it?

Is there any range advantage? How far do they reach and group and with what weight BBs?

What's the optimal barrel length for 400fps? FS say 400mm.

Wouldn't a bullpup AEG make most sense? No more wasted space than necessary as I'm not keen on toting anything bulkier than it needs to be. 

If so what bullpup is best? AUG or L86? Tavor? Famas?

 

[commanderpegasus420]

Most bullpups have a longer barrel than an m4 but If you are considering bullpups its best to stick to the smaller barreled ones to keep it relevant in cqb.

 

ultimately you could bullpup any ak/ar platform using a mechanical linkage and a modified handguard.

ultimately its up to you what you want to invest in so probly just go with what you like the most or make your own design.

 

Although if its a bullpup dmr you want str8 out of box then the svu is the gun for you and the internet rates it highly

 

Regards

Pegasus

[Greg147]

I think a lot of people will say they're a waste of time, but I always had a lot of fun with DMRs. I used a G&G M14 Veteran for while before the law changed and I had to downgrade it to sub 350FPS. Range and accuracy really depends on what goes in them, ammo and parts. I used .32g BBs in mine out of the box and got decent results out to about 60m. I'd say they're not amazing for sniping, as they're not as consistent as bolties, and don't really have the same range, but I still liked the play style  (not to say I wasn't still hit by guys with tuned regular AEGs. Definitely happened. It's just a bit like being a support gunner, in that it's a different role).

 

As for bullpup design, I'd say it's purely down to visual preference. Unlike real guns, barrel length doesn't count for much (most VSRs that keep hitting me from miles away every weekend only have 300mm barrels), so go for whatever looks good. I think certain sites may have rules on what counts as a DMR, but so long as it's locked to semi you should be fine. 

[Samurai]

Barrel length does nothing in airsoft if the gun's barrel length is balanced to the cylinder volume and BB weight.

Some sites don't allow DMR abusing, meaning short guns with high fps. Or they only allow real steel DMRs' RIF variants.

Also, most ppl think they need high fps to get more range. This is also false. High fps will get the BB faster to the target. For example a well made, low fps, short barrel MK23 has 80-90m accurate range.

[Tackle]

As samurai said, it's all about the set up, buddy of mine had a TM mp7 aep, sub 300 fps but range & accuracy was beyond amazing, he could hang back from the crowd & pick people off like a sniper, the only downside was if you knew he was targeting you it was easy to dodge the bb's as you could see them coming.

but dmr's, like support weapons or snipers, encourage (& need) a certain mindset, first issue is you have to ditch full auto in order to take advantage of the higher fps that most sites dmr rules allow, which usually entails modification to ensure full auto can not be achieved, cut off plate being the favoured mod.

as has already been pointed out, most sites will only allow a dmr if it is based on a real world model, or at the very least the gun owner has made a reasonable attempt to ensure his gat resembles a genuine dmr, full length outer barrel, suitable scope, maybe lo or mids (I've seen this s a requirement on some sites) & maybe even a fitted bipod go some way to show your trying, which prob rules out any bullpups ?, I could be wrong.

also, if you primarily play cqb/indoor sites, then it's likely there little call for the benefits a dmr offers, & you definitely can't mix it up close & personal if your running 400+ fps.

finally the mindset, single shot, even with a fast finger your still a sniper of sorts, when almost everybody else is using a bb hose, you need to be comfortable taking them on ?.

personally I rarely use full auto, but then I grew up using slr's so trigger discipline is easy, plus it's very satisfying getting kills with one or two shots.

good luck with what you choose to do, why not try an m14, great bit of kit on single shot, if you enjoy then you can dmr them quite easily.

[Defender90]

So. If I understand this right a bullpup DMR might not be useful or even usable on many sites, and even allowed the 400fps, a lot of shorter barrelled assault rifles might reach out that far anyway, guess the extra 70fps isn't enough to make a difference.

What I wanted was as much range as possible with a decent weight of BB (say .25-.36) with a long barrel in as short a gun as possible with the least wasted space, I was prepared to sacrifice full auto in pursuit of that aim (boom boom!). All due respect to the M14, FALs and M16s but that stock is just wasted space, so there's no downside to AEG bullpups as unlike the RS there's no trigger feel penalty nor is there a chamber full of propellant exploding next to my face.

But seems the consensus is there's no real advantage just a matter of personal preference? 

[Tackle]

There are definite advantages, once you've achieved the desired fps, lots of different ways to achieve this, most common things to sort being spring, tb barrel & air seal, then look at your hop, synchronise those parts & you'll have a hard hitting lazer, but if you feel a longer gat is a waste of space ?, then your entitled to your opinion.

if your set on dmr'ing a bullpup, go for it, why not look at something that has a quick change spring, such as g&g fn2010 hunter (I've got one), & get an adjustable inline mosfet to give you single shot, play some games, then if your happy with it then make the necessary alterations to make it permanent , if a site has issue with its length, get a monster suppressor to shut them up, & if they question the permanency of the selector set up, explain its a test to ascertain its viability.

im not against a dmr bullpup, after all we're seeing dmr snipers now, but some sites, & players may feel its somehow fiddling the rules or going against the ethos of the game.

tbh I've thought about doing something similar with my tavor, the fire selectors have always been a bit temperamental anyway, but I wanted to extend the front somehow, might have to get something 3d printed.

[Prisce]

I have seen on another forum somewhere a ICS L85 DMR that looked and, apparently, performed really well. I get what your saying about practicality and everything being at the back of the gun, I think the only real downside I can think of is parts availability. There isn't a huge aftermarket for Bullpups, compared to M4s, that I know of. 

 

And to be honest, no one is going to be able to tell the difference if it's a DMR or not, so it's just down to your individual taste( and legalities, before anyone starts).

[Defender90]

My initial instinct, born from shotgun and airgun experience, is that the longer the barrel the better. Of course this is airsoft not actual guns.

My second feeling was that the shorter the gun the better and the length used by a stock would be better used with barrel, this is relevant to airsoft as well as real steel so hence: Bullpup. Easily portable and swingable in CQB. Downside is stock can't easily be adjusted for length of pull like and M4.

But unless I actually will get any actual real world extra range out of it I wouldn't bother with a DMR of either configuration, I just hoped the 400fps limit might gain me the ability to shoot longer and straighter with heavier BBs. 

I was dreaming of being able to reliably reach out past 60m?

[Tackle]

60m is nowt, most stock aegs should achieve that with ease, in fact my garden is about 65m long, & my bog standard 1st gen TM m4s will hit ciggy pack size targets all day long, with a really well set up aeg you should be looking at 100m+ viability, the extra fps your considering will help negate the effect of using heavier bb's, but don't forget the chrono test will have to be done using .20's , in order to satisfy site insurance & other legalities.

[Hangtight]

Not all sites chrono with 0.2g. My local checks with the weight you're using for the day to check you aren't exploiting joule creep.

[Tackle]

Wtf is joule creep ?, ive heard of hop creep, a joule, as a measurement, is set in stone.

 

therefore if .20 is used, & in fact many sites will have an assortment of mags at the chrono, all loaded with the same brand of bb to ensure a consistent reading (& to weed out cheating mofos lol)

[Jedi_Master]

6 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Wtf is joule creep ?, ive heard of hop creep, a joule, as a measurement, is set in stone.

 

Joule creep is real, do a search on it.

 

[Hangtight]

My AEGs are optimised for a 0.28g BB @ 1.14joules (equivalent to 350fps with 0.2g), which means they're not as efficient with 0.2g which only actually shoot at 330fps.

If I tuned my guns to shoot 350fps with 0.2g,they would fire a 0.28g BB with an energy equivalent to a 0.2g @ 370+fps.

[Tackle]

What do ya know, been playing more than 16 yrs & never heard of it, looks confusing lol.

I'm assuming, as every site I've ever played has stated only .20 at the chrono, that allowing for that you'll always squeeze through both legally & at site requirement, most being (or were ?) 350, with some allowing a small % tolerance.

bearing in mind I used to play fortnightly religiously, but last few years its been once in a blue moon due to some health issues & mainly locally in Kent, so I'm not up to speed with what most national sites are specifying since the last home office amendments relating to fps/joules & "lethality".

 

& rest finger

[Samurai]

The effect of joule creep has only been discovered a couple of years ago when ppl started using heavy BBs regularly.

Nowadays more and more sites chrono with heavy BBs.

[Jedi_Master]

12 minutes ago, Samurai said:

The effect of joule creep has only been discovered a couple of years ago when ppl started using

 

... HPA guns ?  Just throwing that thought out there

[Tackle]

51 minutes ago, Jedi_Master said:

 

... HPA guns ?  Just throwing that thought out there

Lol, does that count, I thought it was generally accepted that everyone using HPA was a raving cheat anyway

 

(retreating to my underground bunker to avoid the imminent bombardment  )

[Hangtight]

41 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Lol, does that count, I thought it was generally accepted that everyone using HPA was a raving cheat anyway

 

(retreating to my underground bunker to avoid the imminent bombardment  )

 

I'll cover you....

[Defender90]

I plink quite a lot, having the space to do so as I look out onto fields so no neighbours. But it's quite windy and I've noticed that .20s are so carried by the slightest breeze that it can be a complete lottery, so hence my thinking that if I could fire something over .25s at the same speed I should get more accuracy.

I guess my dream was to accurately fire over .30 without people actually dodging the BBs like they're Neo in The Matrix!

[Samurai]

Fired from the same gun, heavier BBs get to the target faster. They carry their momentum better, while light BBs slow down quickly.

[Hangtight]

45 minutes ago, Defender90 said:

I plink quite a lot, having the space to do so as I look out onto fields so no neighbours. But it's quite windy and I've noticed that .20s are so carried by the slightest breeze that it can be a complete lottery, so hence my thinking that if I could fire something over .25s at the same speed I should get more accuracy.

I guess my dream was to accurately fire over .30 without people actually dodging the BBs like they're Neo in The Matrix!

 

Heavier BBs get there faster...

 

http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/

 

[Defender90]

This is fascinating, thank you Hangtight so many variables there, more than Real Steels in fact. One for the General Airsoft folder, phew, I should have paid more attention to the physics master at school!

But basically a normal site limit of about 1 joule might get a .30 or heavier out to up to 60-70 yards?

Whatever else I need to get a chromo, then I need to pay some real attention to matching hop up to BB weight as I get the impression that those foremost factors in airsoft range.

I still wonder if a longer barrel would the best way of launching .30s or heavier up to 100m?

And I can't think of a better use of space than a bullpup, that and the fact that if I get something like an AUG then i can easily whip the barrel off and change hops myself.

But am longer so sure about the DMR thing, from what I'm reading here I get the impression that fps, like long barrel length is not one of those foremost factors.

That being so, it comes down to: What is the optimum barrel length for the UK site limit of 330fps? And what is the optimum BB weight and hop for that? 

[Hangtight]

The only way to get a BB out to 100mm is if it's got the mass to maintain linear momentum and rotational energy in order to keep creating lift. Once it's velocity through the air drops below a certain level it just can't generate lift, regardless of the amount of backspin it retains. This is why heavy BBs get to their maximum range and then seem to just 'drop' out of the air after following a fairly flat flight.

As far as barrel length goes, here's  my take on it. Once the BB leaves the barrel ,the configuration of the gun has no effect on its flight. It has been given a velocity, an amount of backspin and a direction. How that was achieved can no longer influence what happens next.

I have a CQB gun with a barrel length of 170mm and a couple of others with barrel lengths up to 363mm. Firing the same weight BB (0.28g) at a fraction under 1.14J there really isn't anything to choose between them in terms of range, with the most accurate AEG I own having a barrel length of 300mm, but this could be down to the fact that it's the highest quality.