SAVE THE AIRSOFT EXCEPTION

[Qlimax]

Hi all,

 

I wanted to share this because it’s very important to our sport and we need as many of us as possible to get on and email or send letters etc.

 

Lord Shrewsbury amendment could change airsoft completely. We need to spread the word.

 

UKAPU

http://www.ukapu.org.uk/saveairsoft/

 

Facebook Lobby

https://www.facebook.com/groups/UKairsoftlobby/

 

 

[proffrink]

Already done, but a dedicated thread can't be a bad thing.

 

http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/29908-policing-and-crime-bill-2015-16/?p=252763

[Qlimax]

Already done, but a dedicated thread can't be a bad thing.

 

http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/29908-policing-and-crime-bill-2015-16/?p=252763

 

my bad.

[MrMcG]

http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/showthread.php?278395-IMPORTANT-correspondence-with-MA-S-and-Lord-s

 

Be worth keeping tabs on this

[djben9]

http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/showthread.php?278395-IMPORTANT-correspondence-with-MA-S-and-Lord-s

 

Be worth keeping tabs on this

 

no matter what your trying to protect / fight for there is always someone who goes to far, and once again its been proven. Lets hope it doesnt affect anything

 

anyway they left their details with him so im sure the Police will have fun!! haha

[Sacarathe]

 

no matter what your trying to protect / fight for there is always someone who goes to far, and once again its been proven. Lets hope it doesnt affect anything

 

I think you're confusing anger with an actually effort to achieve something, remember the illiterates can't really be expected to make a useful effort, so they should not be blamed for being angry.

[djben9]

 

I think you're confusing anger with an actually effort to achieve something, remember the illiterates can't really be expected to make a useful effort, so they should not be blamed for being angry.

nope, i can see where they are coming from,, .....my wife is like that, sometimes goes off on one!

[Qlimax]

You can’t blame people for being angry but you can blame them for not conducting themselves in a proper manner, especially towards the guy who’s trying to take it away. I mean come on why would someone think that sending him threatening emails would help change his mind. If anything it’ll only make him more intent on wanting to have the exemption removed. Personally it’s not the approach I would have taken with him.

[Jason8]

So the big question, lets say this gets passed, does this mean an airsoft gun amnesty? Perhaps some legally endorseable modification to 1J. We all looking at becoming criminals overnight?

I think this is SERIOUS. I've draughted my letter to 5 Lords to be posted Monday morning.

[Qlimax]

If this gets passed then anything that's over 330Fps (1J) will be classed as a section 5 firearm which then would be a criminal offence to own. You can of course downgrade it to 330Fps to then make it legal. More than likely they'd do a police campaign asking for airsoft players with illegal firearms to hand them in on their own free will without charge.

 

He's a list of Lords I've contacted so far. I've included email addresses for other people to email as well

 

Baroness Campbell [email protected]

Baroness Deech [email protected]

Baroness Hamwee [email protected]

Lord Harris [email protected]

Baroness Pitkeathley [email protected]

Baroness Walmsley [email protected]

Lord Black [email protected]

Lord Lexden [email protected]

Lord Marlesford [email protected]

Lord Sharkey [email protected]

Lord Aberdare [email protected]

Baroness Armstrong [email protected]

Baroness Afshar [email protected]

Lord Ahmad [email protected]

Lord Ahmed [email protected]

Lord Allen [email protected]

Baroness Altmann [email protected]

Lord Alton [email protected]

Lord Anderson [email protected]

Baroness Benjamin [email protected]

Baroness Berridge [email protected]

Baroness Billingham [email protected]

Baroness Blackstone [email protected]

Baroness Blood [email protected]

Baroness Boothroyd [email protected]

Baroness Burt [email protected]

Baroness Butler-Sloss [email protected]

[Shizbazki]

Hhmmm has anyone actually read the legislation and the bill at length to understand it? as knowledge is power?

 

TL:DR – I think as Airsofters we are well covered, so chill the f**k out! The new Bill proposed for the 14-09-16 might be better for Airsoft really, hint, hint, the bill also proposes a new section to the Firearms Act 1968, S.57A

But read on to learn more of what I mean?

 

So upon seeing the news on several forum sites about the up and coming Policing and Crime Bill due to be talked over in the House of Lords on 14-09-16 its seemed that the sport of airsoft is to be doomed if you take the information from UKAPU, UKARA et al, however as some have pointed out that Lord Shrewsbury is doing this for political reasons, one cannot for one second think that maybe UKAPU might have their own political agendas other than being the saving grace of Airsoft it wants to be seen as.

UKAPU have produced a nice poster where they have a step by step, “What you can do to help”

1. Write an angry letter to a Lord on their “LORDS HIT LIST”;

2. That the GTA will be the only ones to benefit, boycott all GTA members who support the bill and

3. JOIN UKAPU.

Link to the reference above:

http://www.ukapu.org.uk/saveairsoft/

Point 1 with the HIT LIST sounded a bit unprofessional to me and started my scepticism, Point 2 GTA boycott fine I agree with that, you don’t shop at a place that is against your beliefs, but point 3 “JOIN UKAPU” got me thinking, is this more for UKAPUs own political reasons? I noticed that to be a UKAPU Silver or Gold member they want your money (£5 for silver, £10 for gold), Bronze is free for a year but after that you have to upgrade up.

On the poster UKAPU made they mention the Airsoft Trade Body, no internet footprint, all Google searches lead back to UKAPU, UKARA is also on the poster but their website make no mention of the new bill, albeit their website is hardly the best.

 

I have always learned to be quite sceptical and tend to look to the actual paperwork, for those of you that don’t know, Acts and Bills can be written in a very archaic manner that’s basically means you need to break it down to understand it.

So with that I decided to go to the House of Lords website and look up the Policing and Crime Bill proposal as well as refer to the original Firearms Act 1968 specifically S57 (and 57A which doesn’t exist, yet! But if this Bill passes it will)

 

So lets start with the crux of the matter, the Firearms Act 1968, S.57 (1):

In this Act, the expression “firearm” means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes—

(a) any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not; and

(b ) any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and

(c ) any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon; and so much of section 1 of this Act as excludes any description of firearm from the category of firearms to which that section applies shall be construed as also excluding component parts of, and accessories to, firearms of that description.

 

They want to change the wording of Firearms Act 1968, S.57 (1), note that the new additional change is highlighted in bold to this:

In this Act, the expression “firearm” means—

(a) a lethal barrelled weapon (see subsection (1B));

(b ) a prohibited weapon;

(c ) a relevant component part in relation to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon (see subsection (1D));

(d) an accessory to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon where the accessory is designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon.

 

You will notice that at the end of S.57 (1) (a) has the “see subsection (1B))”

Subsection 1B states:

“(1B) In subsection (1)(a), “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled

weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile,

with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon,

can be discharged.”

 

And this is where we’re getting our knickers in a twist, before it used to state that a “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile. This could be anything from a shotgun to a pipe launching out a potato etc. Now it has the addition of “with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged.” So adds a specific muzzle velocity too.

So reading it like this means it can be construed that any barrelled weapon which discharges a shot etc with more than 1 joule of energy will be made illegal overnight and that all airsofters up and down the UK should be banged up, so far UKAPU have been correct and have used this to try and gain more members to sign up in apparently the “GOOD FIGHT”.

BUT!!!!

If you were to go to the Firearms Act 1968 and check through the Act as it currently stands, it goes through all its sections numerically occasionally adding the odd “A”, “B”, “C” to certain sections, refer to Section 30 of the Firearms Act 1968 which has Sections 30A, 30B, 30C and 30D.

Section 57 goes straight to Section 58 as expected, however the new Bill proposed for the 14-09-16 has a line stating:

“Subsection (1) is subject to section 57A (exception for airsoft guns).”

 

Basically, the new Bill wants to add a part specifically for us, S.57A which (does not yet exist) is a whole new proposed section to the Firearms Act 1968 which states:

57A Exception for airsoft guns

(1) An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act.

(2) An “airsoft gun” is a barrelled weapon of any description from which only a small plastic missile, with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that does not exceed the permitted level, can be discharged.

(3) “Small plastic missile” means a missile that—

(a) is made wholly or partly from plastics, and

(b ) does not exceed 6 millimetres in diameter.

(4) The permitted kinetic energy level is—

(a) in the case of a weapon which is designed or adapted so that two or more missiles can be discharged successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;

(b ) in any other case, 2.5 joules.”

 

This above means that either UKAPU have only read a small part of the new bill and stopped reading or they want more members, Section 57 is so specific to Airsoft guns NOT being regarded as firearms for this Act is unreal, in fact the way S.57A, Paragraph 4, line b - is written technically means that Full Autos can go up to 1.3J or about 372FPS using .20g BBs, Semi Auto DMRs and Bolt Actions can legally go up to 515FPS on .20g BBs. This is why we should use joules instead of FPS and weights to measure our guns.

 

This means that if this Bill passes, nothing for Airsofters will change, I think the Airsoft community have misinterpreted Air Weapons such as Air Rifles and Pistols with Airsoft Guns. Frankly the Bill has included S.57A to try and bring the Firearms Act 1968 up to date to formally recognise Airsoft Guns under the Act but clarifies that Airsoft Guns are NOT firearms.

For those of you fearing that Police would come to Airsosft Sites and Chrono everyone en masse, I would say don’t woryy, Police have better things to do and would risk alienating Airsoft Players, of which a sizeable portion are Police Officers themselves.

References:

1.

Firearms Act 1968

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57

Accessed 03-09-16

 

2.

Policing and Crime Bill 2015-16 to 2016-17, HL Bill 55 dated 14-06-16, Las accessed on 03-09-16

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2016-2017/0055/17055.pdf

Specifically referring to Page 137, Part 6 – Firearms, Paragraph 111 Firearms Act 1968: meaning of “firearm” etc

[Mos]

Yeah,

Scenario:

13-14 year old turns up with a gun over the limit by 0.02 joules, the policemen is hardly going to go on a mad one is he? Despite the fact that why should they care for people firing plastic BBs all in good will? They have legit gun crime to worry about a long with theft and murder, I don't see how finding out if an airsoft gun (toy) is firing over the limit and now classes as a section 5 firearm ranks higher in their priority list.

 

Leave us alone! We don't do much to harm anyone, most airsofters in the UK respect what's right & wrong. Making up these laws and trying to get them passed through is a real knife in the foot for everyone.

[proffrink]

As already said: At an individual level this law will be practically unenforceable. The real issue is importers having to be extra careful what they bring in.

Anyway, some good news that has been somewhat avoided on FB and other places:

 

Probing amendments are what the House of Lords does a lot. It would certainly fit with the narrative of him not going through the gun lobby first if he never intended it to be passed. Seems we might all be able to relax, but hey it's worth being sure.

-snip-

Goodness, have you spent any time reading the UKAPU stuff? This is about an amendment to the bill - you're reading the bill itself. The bill has a clear exception to airsoft, but Shrewsbury tabled an amendment to remove it as a way of probing as to why there's an amendment in the first place.

 

See this whole thread thread. This isn't about a bill - it's about an amendment to that bill.

 

Shizbazki you dun goofed big timey: http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/29908-policing-and-crime-bill-2015-16/

[Beethoven]

Hhmmm has anyone actually read the legislation and the bill at length to understand it? as knowledge is power?

 

TL:DR I think as Airsofters we are well covered, so chill the f**k out! The new Bill proposed for the 14-09-16 might be better for Airsoft really, hint, hint, the bill also proposes a new section to the Firearms Act 1968, S.57A

But read on to learn more of what I mean?

 

So upon seeing the news on several forum sites about the up and coming Policing and Crime Bill due to be talked over in the House of Lords on 14-09-16 its seemed that the sport of airsoft is to be doomed if you take the information from UKAPU, UKARA et al, however as some have pointed out that Lord Shrewsbury is doing this for political reasons, one cannot for one second think that maybe UKAPU might have their own political agendas other than being the saving grace of Airsoft it wants to be seen as.

UKAPU have produced a nice poster where they have a step by step, What you can do to help

1. Write an angry letter to a Lord on their LORDS HIT LIST;

2. That the GTA will be the only ones to benefit, boycott all GTA members who support the bill and

3. JOIN UKAPU.

Link to the reference above:

http://www.ukapu.org.uk/saveairsoft/

Point 1 with the HIT LIST sounded a bit unprofessional to me and started my scepticism, Point 2 GTA boycott fine I agree with that, you dont shop at a place that is against your beliefs, but point 3 JOIN UKAPU got me thinking, is this more for UKAPUs own political reasons? I noticed that to be a UKAPU Silver or Gold member they want your money (£5 for silver, £10 for gold), Bronze is free for a year but after that you have to upgrade up.

On the poster UKAPU made they mention the Airsoft Trade Body, no internet footprint, all Google searches lead back to UKAPU, UKARA is also on the poster but their website make no mention of the new bill, albeit their website is hardly the best.

 

I have always learned to be quite sceptical and tend to look to the actual paperwork, for those of you that dont know, Acts and Bills can be written in a very archaic manner thats basically means you need to break it down to understand it.

So with that I decided to go to the House of Lords website and look up the Policing and Crime Bill proposal as well as refer to the original Firearms Act 1968 specifically S57 (and 57A which doesnt exist, yet! But if this Bill passes it will)

 

So lets start with the crux of the matter, the Firearms Act 1968, S.57 (1):

In this Act, the expression firearm means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes

(a) any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not; and

(b ) any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and

(c ) any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon; and so much of section 1 of this Act as excludes any description of firearm from the category of firearms to which that section applies shall be construed as also excluding component parts of, and accessories to, firearms of that description.

 

They want to change the wording of Firearms Act 1968, S.57 (1), note that the new additional change is highlighted in bold to this:

In this Act, the expression firearm means

(a) a lethal barrelled weapon (see subsection (1B));

(b ) a prohibited weapon;

(c ) a relevant component part in relation to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon (see subsection (1D));

(d) an accessory to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon where the accessory is designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon.

 

You will notice that at the end of S.57 (1) (a) has the see subsection (1B))

Subsection 1B states:

(1B) In subsection (1)(a), lethal barrelled weapon means a barrelled

weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile,

with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon,

can be discharged.

 

And this is where were getting our knickers in a twist, before it used to state that a lethal barrelled weapon means a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile. This could be anything from a shotgun to a pipe launching out a potato etc. Now it has the addition of with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged. So adds a specific muzzle velocity too.

So reading it like this means it can be construed that any barrelled weapon which discharges a shot etc with more than 1 joule of energy will be made illegal overnight and that all airsofters up and down the UK should be banged up, so far UKAPU have been correct and have used this to try and gain more members to sign up in apparently the GOOD FIGHT.

BUT!!!!

If you were to go to the Firearms Act 1968 and check through the Act as it currently stands, it goes through all its sections numerically occasionally adding the odd A, B, C to certain sections, refer to Section 30 of the Firearms Act 1968 which has Sections 30A, 30B, 30C and 30D.

Section 57 goes straight to Section 58 as expected, however the new Bill proposed for the 14-09-16 has a line stating:

Subsection (1) is subject to section 57A (exception for airsoft guns).

 

Basically, the new Bill wants to add a part specifically for us, S.57A which (does not yet exist) is a whole new proposed section to the Firearms Act 1968 which states:

57A Exception for airsoft guns

(1) An airsoft gun is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act.

(2) An airsoft gun is a barrelled weapon of any description from which only a small plastic missile, with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that does not exceed the permitted level, can be discharged.

(3) Small plastic missile means a missile that

(a) is made wholly or partly from plastics, and

(b ) does not exceed 6 millimetres in diameter.

(4) The permitted kinetic energy level is

(a) in the case of a weapon which is designed or adapted so that two or more missiles can be discharged successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;

(b ) in any other case, 2.5 joules.

 

This above means that either UKAPU have only read a small part of the new bill and stopped reading or they want more members, Section 57 is so specific to Airsoft guns NOT being regarded as firearms for this Act is unreal, in fact the way S.57A, Paragraph 4, line b - is written technically means that Full Autos can go up to 1.3J or about 372FPS using .20g BBs, Semi Auto DMRs and Bolt Actions can legally go up to 515FPS on .20g BBs. This is why we should use joules instead of FPS and weights to measure our guns.

 

This means that if this Bill passes, nothing for Airsofters will change, I think the Airsoft community have misinterpreted Air Weapons such as Air Rifles and Pistols with Airsoft Guns. Frankly the Bill has included S.57A to try and bring the Firearms Act 1968 up to date to formally recognise Airsoft Guns under the Act but clarifies that Airsoft Guns are NOT firearms.

For those of you fearing that Police would come to Airsosft Sites and Chrono everyone en masse, I would say dont woryy, Police have better things to do and would risk alienating Airsoft Players, of which a sizeable portion are Police Officers themselves.

References:

1.

Firearms Act 1968

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57

Accessed 03-09-16

 

2.

Policing and Crime Bill 2015-16 to 2016-17, HL Bill 55 dated 14-06-16, Las accessed on 03-09-16

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2016-2017/0055/17055.pdf

Specifically referring to Page 137, Part 6 Firearms, Paragraph 111 Firearms Act 1968: meaning of firearm etc[/quote

Interesting. I think I need to read up on this further.

[proffrink]

You mean the considerable amount of old information we already have from 6 months ago? I commend the effort, but it was slightly misplaced and does not at all address the issue we have right now. See this thread for the summary and discussion from a while back: http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/29908-policing-and-crime-bill-2015-16/

[typefish]

I find Shizbazki's post on the contrary. Dangerously on the contrary.

 

We at UKAPU have certainly been looking into this, heck, I personally have spent countless hours looking into the darn thing.

 

Since I'm stuck in bed at the moment, I'll explain why I'm sh*t scared of the Policing and Crime Bill in general.

 

The PCB does appear to protect Airsofters in general, but, it's done in such a naïve manner.

 

I like my airsoft guns to run at about 310fps on 0.25g with the hop set in its sweet spot, which means that with the hop fully off, it will be running nearer to 320-325 fps on 0.25g.

 

The new legal limit is 335fps on 0.25g, which means that my guns might be able, if tweaked about the right manner, to gain 10fps and for it to become a Section 5 firearm.

 

And once it becomes a Section 5 firearm, it will never be an Airsoft gun ever again.

 

I have recently spent money converting a DMR I spent a sh*t load of time and effort getting perfect into a mid-to-high RPS beast - In the 20 minutes of play before I fractured my leg I found out it's super accurate and possibly might have been the best decision I have ever made with regards to an Airsoft gun.

 

If it's quite easy to turn an AEG into a Section 5 firearm, what about a gas rifle, or a HPA rifle?

 

Please forgive me for falling into the pit of car analogies, but, wouldn't you be outraged if your car could never be driven ever again because you went over 74 mph? Oh, and you could also face a prison sentence for continued ownership of a car that has exceeded 74 mph. That's how extreme this bill is.

[proffrink]

Assume you're talking about Skizbazki's post as the thread is moving fast.

 

Are we talking about the amendment or the original bill? This is kind of what the two separate threads should be:

 

Original bill discussion (i.e. minus Shrewsbury): http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/29908-policing-and-crime-bill-2015-16/

Recent tabled amendment discussion (i.e. with Shrewsbury): http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/32547-save-the-airsoft-exception/

 

The amount of confusion right now...

[typefish]

I was referring to the bill in general, as Shizbazki was.

[typefish]

Also, to counter Shizbazki's rather ill informed view of the UKAPU structure, you can be a Bronze member for how ever long you want.

[proffrink]

Goodoh. It seems Shizbazki has the slightly wrong idea though as the lengths to the which the bill (in general) restricts airsoft and threatens the make 'readily convertible' stuff illegal, the bit about 'plastic only', the limits not leaving much of a margin for DMRs, the unenforceability of that sort of thing (and the worry for importers etc.) have all been discussed quite a bit here. I'd ask to avoid confusion that we maybe put general bill thoughts into that thread? http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/29908-policing-and-crime-bill-2015-16/

 

This thread should maybe be kept to the Shrewsbury amendment so it's easier to get people on their feet and doing something about it. Again, anyone reading this: The first paragraph I typed there will not matter if the Shrewsbury amendment happens; Shizbazki's and Typefish's posts will also not matter a whole lot if the section giving airsoft an exception is deleted. That's what this thread is about.

[Beethoven]

Assume you're talking about Skizbazki's post as the thread is moving fast.

 

Are we talking about the amendment or the original bill? This is kind of what the two separate threads should be:

 

Original bill discussion (i.e. minus Shrewsbury): http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/29908-policing-and-crime-bill-2015-16/

Recent tabled amendment discussion (i.e. with Shrewsbury): http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/32547-save-the-airsoft-exception/

 

The amount of confusion right now...

Yes I was, before I read the subsequent posts. I was initially impressed by the forensic detail of Shizbaki's post, but then I read the other comments, which shed further light on the issue, in particular the difference between the contents of the Bill and the proposed amendment to it.

[typefish]

Cross-posted.

[proffrink]

Yes I was, before I read the subsequent posts. I was initially impressed by the forensic detail of Shizbaki's post, but then I read the other comments, which shed further light on the issue, in particular the difference between the contents of the Bill and the proposed amendment to it.

That was to Typefish lol.

 

Here's your one:

You mean the considerable amount of old information we already have from 6 months ago? I commend the effort, but it was slightly misplaced and does not at all address the issue we have right now. See this thread for the summary and discussion from a while back: http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/29908-policing-and-crime-bill-2015-16/

I'm gunna start quoting more in active threads like this I think.

[jcheeseright]

Fantastic post Shizbazki, unfortunately you've completely missed the point that Lord Shrewsbury is tabling a motion to REMOVE the exception in section 57!

[Yams]

Just to add to jcheeserights post above, its a great shame when I see someone putting a lot of effort into something and coming out with a completely wrong conclusion.

 

Don't want to retread ground but what is proposed in the PCB, which was put there by UKARA, ATB and UKAPU representatives will suffice for airsoft to continue. We aim to push for more but we'll have to see. The big fuss right now is amendment made by Lord Shrewsbury to remove only the part in the PCB which gives airsoft a break.

 

I don't take slight to the thinly veiled accusation to ukapu just wanting to scare up members for cash, been doing it too long to worry. Its free to join and we absolutely do have a political agenda...keeping airsoft as we enjoy it and if anything relaxing the restrictions we have.