Callsign_Tempest Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tommikka said: ‘Defence’ is not you defending from prosecution, eg in court. If a player buys a RIF then that player does so under the skirmisher defence. But it is the retailer who would be liable under legislation if the player does not have the defence That means a retailer might need to go to court one day and defend themselves from prosecution, establishing that their ‘Legal defence’ is that they reasonably ensured that the buyer had a VCRA ‘defence’ implying that they intended to use the RIF for skirmishing. In modifying then you are the individual who could be liable for prosecution and could need to prove your legal defence of your skirmisher defence Whom would question my RIF if I were to have my IF changed, site manager? I have a mate who has a RIF that he was gifted, could I say mine was gifted? But then I wouldn’t do that, even so I doubt I’d be questioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, Callsign_Tempest said: Whom would question my RIF if I were to have my IF changed, site manager? I have a mate who has a RIF that he was gifted, could I say mine was gifted? But then I wouldn’t do that, even so I doubt I’d be questioned I’m not going to say that it’s OK for you to end up in possession of a RIF If someone gifts you a RIF then that’s between them and you If it is legal under the VCRA for you to paint an IF into a RIF then it’s fine for you to do so If it’s a crime but you don’t get caught then you have got away with it. An entirely legal way would be for your father to go playing with you, earn his own UKARA membership, and then buy you a RIF as a present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign_Tempest Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tommikka said: I’m not going to say that it’s OK for you to end up in possession of a RIF If someone gifts you a RIF then that’s between them and you If it is legal under the VCRA for you to paint an IF into a RIF then it’s fine for you to do so If it’s a crime but you don’t get caught then you have got away with it. Alrighty, well I’ll do some homework and get my head around this tomorrow, thank you tho appreciate the time, don’t be surprised if you see me pop up elsewhere 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted February 12, 2020 Supporters Share Posted February 12, 2020 9 hours ago, Tommikka said: Airsoft skirmishing was added by ‘statutory instrument’, the UKARA scheme was brought in to establish and document a players status as a skirmisher. But you are underage and cannot obtain that defence yourself. There is no age limit on Section 37 defences. Purchasers must be 18+, and the UKARA scheme is open to people 18+, but UKARA is only one way of demonstrating the defence. This matters because (IMO) the primary risk to airsofters isn't VCRA S36, it's the Firearms Act 1968 S19 possession in public offence - VCRA isn't generally going to be an issue unless your IF/RIF comes to the attention of the State, and that's only likely to happen in public, at which point you're looking at an S19. S19 requires a "reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on [us])" - i.e. that you're on your way to or from an airsoft skirmish, the same as you'd argue as a S37 defence. And again, there's no minimum age limit to that reasonable excuse. If there were, OP would already be a bare gangsta just for travelling to or from site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJN09 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I was wondering if I could paint a 2 tone pistol black, I don't go to any airsoft site, it's purely for home use, display purposes, and shooting targets, and tin cans, I don't plan on taking it anywhere, is this legal? Is there an age restriction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 25 minutes ago, CJN09 said: I was wondering if I could paint a 2 tone pistol black, I don't go to any airsoft site, it's purely for home use, display purposes, and shooting targets, and tin cans, I don't plan on taking it anywhere, is this legal? Is there an age restriction? None of those activities are recognised to justify a RIF You would be committing an offence by painting it For shooting targets it doesn’t matter what colour it is. Display isn’t a valid defence for a RIF - whereas you could display a deactivated firearm etc (taking care to not have it overlooked from outside) You need to be aged 18 to purchase either an IF or a RIF See Rogerborgs link above for the VCRA legislation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostly Retired Moderators L3wisD Posted January 28, 2021 Mostly Retired Moderators Share Posted January 28, 2021 @The UKARA Police... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasongtr Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Or just get a £25 a year Sportsman Association membership which many retailers accept as your legal defence requirement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 23 minutes ago, Jasongtr said: Or just get a £25 a year Sportsman Association membership which many retailers accept as your legal defence requirement But not necessarily a valid defence. It's already been stated that his intended purpose is to possess and shoot targets at home. This is not a valid defence under the VCRA. The Sportsman Association is a campaign group for shooting sports, and certain memberships cover public liability insurance when in appropriate activities etc. The £25 membership is only associate (uninsured) or junior membership (under 18) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiK Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 The £50 membership would cover tho - according to the info supplied on their site (last page) http://sportsmansassociation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Airsoft-and-the-use-of-RIFs-2.pdf and if I don’t get out of lockdown by end of February my UKARA will run out...... great living in Leicestershire ;/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasongtr Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 24 minutes ago, Tommikka said: But not necessarily a valid defence. It's already been stated that his intended purpose is to possess and shoot targets at home. This is not a valid defence under the VCRA. The Sportsman Association is a campaign group for shooting sports, and certain memberships cover public liability insurance when in appropriate activities etc. The £25 membership is only associate (uninsured) or junior membership (under 18) If it’s not a valid defence to sell RIF to over 18’s then there are many retailers breaking the law then which I doubt they would run that risk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Jasongtr said: If it’s not a valid defence to sell RIF to over 18’s then there are many retailers breaking the law then which I doubt they would run that risk Defences are: Museum / gallery Theatrical / film / TV Reenactment In service of the crown Skirmishing (addition under statutory instrument) Not target shooting. You can target shoot with a RIF or IF but it is not a valid purpose under the VCRA for the sale of a RIF. IF sales are legal without a VCRA defence https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37 2)Those purposes are— (a)the purposes of a museum or gallery; (b)the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances; (c)the production of films (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (c. 48)_see section 5B of that Act); (d)the production of television programmes (within the meaning of the Communications Act 2003 (c. 21)_see section 405(1) of that Act); (e)the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments organised and held by persons specified or described for the purposes of this section by regulations made by the Secretary of State; (f)the purposes of functions that a person has in his capacity as a person in the service of Her Majesty. However, if you’re referring to sales of airguns etc for target shooting that’s a different matter. Airguns are low powered air weapons, which is a classification of firearm, and are neither IFs nor RIFs (The I in IF/RIF is for imitation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasongtr Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 So are you saying that a retailer must ask the reason why so don’t may have the Sportsman Association defence because they don’t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 11 minutes ago, Jasongtr said: So are you saying that a retailer must ask the reason why so don’t may have the Sportsman Association defence because they don’t No. I’m saying that retailers should take reasonable measures to verify the defence of a purchaser. I’m also saying that CJN isn’t a skirmisher, and isn’t a sporting shooter either. I’m aware of other ‘schemes’ taken by some types of retailers, often trading under names such as ‘BB xxx’ Can you give some examples of ‘many’ reputable airsoft retailers showing that they accept a skirmisher defence that can just be bought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasongtr Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Tommikka said: No. I’m saying that retailers should take reasonable measures to verify the defence of a purchaser. I’m also saying that CJN isn’t a skirmisher, and isn’t a sporting shooter either. I’m aware of other ‘schemes’ taken by some types of retailers, often trading under names such as ‘BB xxx’ Can you give some examples of ‘many’ reputable airsoft retailers showing that they accept a skirmisher defence that can just be bought? These all accept Sportsman Association as a valid legal defence Airsoft world Crawley surplus store Weekend warriors Action hobby Just BB guns Defcon Fire support Land warrior airsoft A2 supplies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamal Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 47 minutes ago, Jasongtr said: These all accept Sportsman Association as a valid legal defence Airsoft world Crawley surplus store Weekend warriors Action hobby Just BB guns Defcon Fire support Land warrior airsoft A2 supplies Looked on A2 and they dont mention Sporting Association. Not saying they dont but it's not listed. I didnt know but seems like some suppliers accept UKAPU membership. So I should be ok if my ukara runs out? Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasongtr Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Shamal said: Looked on A2 and they dont mention Sporting Association. Not saying they dont but it's not listed. I didnt know but seems like some suppliers accept UKAPU membership. So I should be ok if my ukara runs out? Regards All of those definitely accept it, they have either confirmed it to me or it’s on their websites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 35 minutes ago, Jasongtr said: These all accept Sportsman Association as a valid legal defence Airsoft world Crawley surplus store Weekend warriors Action hobby Just BB guns Defcon Fire support Land warrior airsoft A2 supplies Airsoft world- Not in their terms on the bottom of the page https://www.airsoftworld.net. JustCos & Sportsman on checkout Crawley surplus store - UKARA required in terms & on checkout Weekend warriors Not mentioned in terms https://www.weekendwarriorsairsoft.co.uk/index.php?_route_=Exemptions. But they do include 'collecting' and are open to discuss Action hobby Not in their terms listed, but JustCos and Sportsman at checkout Just BB guns Not here https://www.justbbguns.co.uk/airsoft-law/. JustCos at checkout Defcon - Not here they don't: https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/faq/ UKARA or 'valid defence' at checkout Fire support Cosplay and Sportsman here https://www.fire-support.co.uk/buyingagun.php Land warrior airsoft Not here https://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/violent-crime-reduction-act-i24 or https://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/terms-conditions-i7 but they are vague about the reference in checkout A2 supplies - Not here https://a2supplies.co.uk/pages/terms-conditions When you've contacted them have you described yourself as an air softer, etc? They could decide to accept other methods than the UKARA etc, but its up to them for their purposes and the risk of any likelihood of prosecution. JustCos is entirely non compliant with the VCRA, and RIFs also do not fit in with UK Cosplay event entry terms and conditions. (Though 'professional cosplayers' with PLI would meet the criteria under theatrical performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasongtr Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Tommikka said: Airsoft world- Not in their terms on the bottom of the page https://www.airsoftworld.net. JustCos & Sportsman on checkout Crawley surplus store - UKARA required in terms & on checkout Weekend warriors Not mentioned in terms https://www.weekendwarriorsairsoft.co.uk/index.php?_route_=Exemptions. But they do include 'collecting' and are open to discuss Action hobby Not in their terms listed, but JustCos and Sportsman at checkout Just BB guns Not here https://www.justbbguns.co.uk/airsoft-law/. JustCos at checkout Defcon - Not here they don't: https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/faq/ UKARA or 'valid defence' at checkout Fire support Cosplay and Sportsman here https://www.fire-support.co.uk/buyingagun.php Land warrior airsoft Not here https://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/violent-crime-reduction-act-i24 or https://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/terms-conditions-i7 but they are vague about the reference in checkout A2 supplies - Not here https://a2supplies.co.uk/pages/terms-conditions When you've contacted them have you described yourself as an air softer, etc? They could decide to accept other methods than the UKARA etc, but its up to them for their purposes and the risk of any likelihood of prosecution. JustCos is entirely non compliant with the VCRA, and RIFs also do not fit in with UK Cosplay event entry terms and conditions. (Though 'professional cosplayers' with PLI would meet the criteria under theatrical performance I don’t describe myself as anything, I ask if they accept SA membership if their site isn’t obvious, they either reply yes or no, defcon definitely accept it as that’s where I just got my GHK from, I have zero interest and ‘playing’ it was only ever bought as a training rifle for my FAC rifle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Jasongtr said: I don’t describe myself as anything, I ask if they accept SA membership if their site isn’t obvious, they either reply yes or no, defcon definitely accept it as that’s where I just got my GHK from, I have zero interest and ‘playing’ it was only ever bought as a training rifle for my FAC rifle Which would mean based on the legislation that an offence may have been committed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasongtr Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Tommikka said: Which would mean based on the legislation that an offence may have been committed If you say so, my legal defence as offered to the retailer was accepted end of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamal Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 47 minutes ago, Jasongtr said: All of those definitely accept it, they have either confirmed it to me or it’s on their websites Ok cool 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 19 minutes ago, Jasongtr said: If you say so, my legal defence as offered to the retailer was accepted end of The end of is it’s their legal defence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasongtr Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tommikka said: The end of is it’s their legal defence What’s that supposed to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jasongtr said: What’s that supposed to mean? Its supposed to mean a 'VCRA defence' is your status as buyer, but an offence is committed by the seller and the 'legal defence' is down to them For CJN on his question regarding painting it would be him conducting the modification, and an offence down to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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