Sp00n's doing the unthinkable ... G&G CM16 "upgrading"

[sp00n]

 

so a little history first, i bought my CM16 2 years ago now, and its been a bloody good gun! it has never let me down. Above is the pic i took when i first bought the gun, below is how its been for the last year and abit (yes before anyone asks i did get my UKARA and do away with the green paint).

 

 

2 years on and out of warranty, i figured "i am going to hell ... whats another sin" so time for some modding!!

 

before i began down this path i did a lot of thinking and tried to put together a plan of action of the 2 things that i wanted to achieve and my reasons.

 

1) improve trigger response - i play a lot of CQB and a quick trigger response is always nice

 

To do this i have replaced the motor for a lonex a2 which i had laying around, massive improvement!!

i have, but have not yet fitted a pico AAB mosfet, a speed adjustable trigger, 16awg wire and deans

 

2) shorten the barrel - Moving in a tight environment, while is not impossible, it is more difficult with a long gun.

 

i actually contacted G&G and priced up a fire hawk top end ... for £30 - £40 more than there quote i could have bought a new gun!! - so i am not doing this

 

So One i had got all the bits i figured i need, i began the strip down ... and ran into my first problem

 

 

As you can see the bearing is dead ... opening it upon reviealed some more bad news

 

 

Yeap that bearing is dead ... and the bevel bearing too, from my experience its normally the spur bearings that go first

 

In any case i suspect the issue was caused because all/most of the grease has gone hard/crusty ... which is not good!

 

Other then the bearings everything else looks ok, the gears look fine, the trigger contacts have minimal wear etc etc

 

The piston has minimal wear, same goes for the piston head ... the spring needs a bearing guide .... and i may chuck that guarder sp100 spring i have laying around at it.

 

(To be continued)

 

[Lozart]

Try using macro mode on your camera.

 

Looking forward to the rest (with in focus pictures)

[sp00n]

Try using macro mode on your camera.

 

Looking forward to the rest (with in focus pictures)

 

iphone ... quality pictures

[Sitting Duck]

Great box - shame about bushing failing but still needs very little spent on it

 

SHS or other o-ring nozzle, new o-ring for piston probably, bit of tape on cylinder head

(or replace cyl head if still not great seal), 2nd tooth is removed so shave 3rd a tiny bit for AOE

new spring & bearing spring guide if you like

 

Bushings - well you could have a swap around put the sector bushings in where bevel gear where

(if they are still in very good condition)

Then pop in some 8mm bearings on sector gear though you may as well replace the whole set

Just most say bushings & some say a mix of bushings/bearings (bearings on the opposite non-load side)

The standard FireHawk has 8mm bearings & 23:1 gears where as the other CM's have bushings & 18:1 gears

 

Up to you what you do - as long as it is shimmed & greased but you knew that soz for waffle

 

Fet wires - you could run them externally on right side of box back to stock on thin 22awg wire

should be enough room at back of receiver or a tiny bit of groove/file - you will never see it

will save fiddling trying to get the fet signal wire(s) routed inside neatly if you also change to silver

or slightly thicker 16awg wire when fitting fet.

Gotta admit I do like v3's as you can solder/fit signal wires externally without all the squeeze inside a v2 box

 

But taking nothing away from G&G's v2 box - it is a lovely box to work on

(even if they put the feckin' screws on the other side of the box)

 

How much shorter is the barrel you are thinking of putting in there ?

Long Raider barrel is 357/363 compare to Short Raider 233/229 barrel

So with that difference you may like to check/compare the port on cylinder as you have her in bits

Or you "might" get some weird results from over volume if port is too far back on much shorter barrel

[Sitting Duck]

Really soz for double post but my first few box's were a nightmare......

Mainly coz $hite plastic - ergh was told by some chubby its metal

box exploding and bits going everywhere so didn't notice original shimming

that AR bastid not going back in and also this super shimming guide....

 

Got a couple of them "Gearbox Repair Kits" - sounds good idea

Well instructions show how to shim etc....

So I followed that to the letter - but this was old method with bevel gear set really low

(starting with spur low and the other two shimmed to that - now know that is incorrect)

But why wouldn't I follow this guide ? seems to be about right yup

Only to find out my bevel is so low its screeching and straining on motor ffs !!!!!

 

Yes I know it is wrong but perhaps along with $hitty boxes explains wtf I had such a nightmare on my first few attempts

(not that I am a teching guru - far from it but is a good excuse I use why I bollox'd so much on my first experiences)

 

instructions first: - soz for pics.....

 

 

now to show just how top tech this guide is have a little lookey at the finished box

in particular how the cylinder is set up with the port position:

 

 

WTF !!!!! - I think they installed the cylinder ar$e about face ffs

 

No freakin' wonder I f*cked up so much at first following these muppet instructions

(Well is my excuse but I am still a noobish nob - still so much to learn/break)

 

Soz to gatecrash or derail your post - I will edit it later but felt I had to share these bollox instructions

[Cheeky vimto]

These boxes are pretty much common sense. Main thing to remember is if you upgrade a part for speed or FPS increase it will probably mean another part will wear down quicker. Also make sure your piston meshes with the gear correctly, I stripped mine about 10 minutes after opening it for the first time

 

I upgraded my gr-15 (probably same internally);

 

13:1 SHS gears

SHS piston

Vented cylinder

SHS delay chip

SHS shims

SHS 8mm bearings

70D sorbo pad

Hamsterfet

Lonex A1+

 

If you need help with anything send me pm.

[sp00n]

Great box - shame about bushing failing but still needs very little spent on it

 

SHS or other o-ring nozzle, new o-ring for piston probably, bit of tape on cylinder head

(or replace cyl head if still not great seal), 2nd tooth is removed so shave 3rd a tiny bit for AOE

new spring & bearing spring guide if you like

 

Bushings - well you could have a swap around put the sector bushings in where bevel gear where

(if they are still in very good condition)

Then pop in some 8mm bearings on sector gear though you may as well replace the whole set

Just most say bushings & some say a mix of bushings/bearings (bearings on the opposite non-load side)

The standard FireHawk has 8mm bearings & 23:1 gears where as the other CM's have bushings & 18:1 gears

 

Up to you what you do - as long as it is shimmed & greased but you knew that soz for waffle

 

Fet wires - you could run them externally on right side of box back to stock on thin 22awg wire

should be enough room at back of receiver or a tiny bit of groove/file - you will never see it

will save fiddling trying to get the fet signal wire(s) routed inside neatly if you also change to silver

or slightly thicker 16awg wire when fitting fet.

Gotta admit I do like v3's as you can solder/fit signal wires externally without all the squeeze inside a v2 box

 

But taking nothing away from G&G's v2 box - it is a lovely box to work on

(even if they put the feckin' screws on the other side of the box)

 

How much shorter is the barrel you are thinking of putting in there ?

Long Raider barrel is 357/363 compare to Short Raider 233/229 barrel

So with that difference you may like to check/compare the port on cylinder as you have her in bits

Or you "might" get some weird results from over volume if port is too far back on much shorter barrel

 

already have new seals and nozzles on there way. AOE looks really good TBH, and there is only very minimal wear on the piston teeth.

 

bushings - its getting a full set of SHS all steel bushings, as it just seems a waste to do 1 or 2 ... and the remaining may fail, so best to do all in my mind

 

have shims and some rather nice guarder Teflon grease for the gears, my personnel fave if i am honest, and some silicone grease for the piston etc.

 

to be honest, i am not going to spend any money going down the shortening barrel route (though a mate from my site said i could have the barrel bits of his old standard raider)

 

as for the wiring, i dont think that the fet signal will be as much of an issue as locating the fet will be, as its a lot tighter then i thought, i may put it in the buffer tube and abandon my idea of eventually swapping the stock over .... ill have a think on it

 

its the mid size barrel if i get it, though i did notice that the cylinder was quit heavily ported, i would go so far as saying that the porting is over halfway down the cylinder (ill take some pics)

[sp00n]

Really soz for double post but my first few box's were a nightmare......

Mainly coz $hite plastic - ergh was told by some chubby its metal

box exploding and bits going everywhere so didn't notice original shimming

that AR bastid not going back in and also this super shimming guide....

 

Got a couple of them "Gearbox Repair Kits" - sounds good idea

Well instructions show how to shim etc....

So I followed that to the letter - but this was old method with bevel gear set really low

(starting with spur low and the other two shimmed to that - now know that is incorrect)

But why wouldn't I follow this guide ? seems to be about right yup

Only to find out my bevel is so low its screeching and straining on motor ffs !!!!!

 

Yes I know it is wrong but perhaps along with $hitty boxes explains wtf I had such a nightmare on my first few attempts

(not that I am a teching guru - far from it but is a good excuse I use why I bollox'd so much on my first experiences)

 

instructions first: - soz for pics.....

 

 

now to show just how top tech this guide is have a little lookey at the finished box

in particular how the cylinder is set up with the port position:

 

 

WTF !!!!! - I think they installed the cylinder ar$e about face ffs

 

No freakin' wonder I f*cked up so much at first following these muppet instructions

(Well is my excuse but I am still a noobish nob - still so much to learn/break)

 

Soz to gatecrash or derail your post - I will edit it later but felt I had to share these bollox instructions

 

No probs mate, all posts are good in my eyes

 

as for the shimming i use this guide i found http://www.actionsportgames.com/files/asg/products/manuals/16947_Shimmin.pdf i know it seems alot of faffing around , but the results are worth it

 

lol That may have been an MP5K box, iirc thats what my old one looked like

[sp00n]

These boxes are pretty much common sense. Main thing to remember is if you upgrade a part for speed or FPS increase it will probably mean another part will wear down quicker. Also make sure your piston meshes with the gear correctly, I stripped mine about 10 minutes after opening it for the first time

 

I upgraded my gr-15 (probably same internally);

 

13:1 SHS gears

SHS piston

Vented cylinder

SHS delay chip

SHS shims

SHS 8mm bearings

70D sorbo pad

Hamsterfet

Lonex A1+

 

If you need help with anything send me pm.

 

Thanks for the offer mate

 

i am doing my upgrade "sequentially" (well thats what my mind thinks), i am sticking with the standard 18:1 gears, and a 7.4v lipo at first. then as i get board i can go down the 13:1 gears, swiss cheese piston, delay chips and 11.1v lipo etc etc.

 

That lonex a1 motor is a bit of a beast, i have the A2, as i didn't want to send my gun back to the future the rate the A1 spins at

[Sitting Duck]

Even a mp5k can't be that close to the front of box.

 

99.9% certain they put it in back to front,

Mp5k 120mm would have port about 33%

That is like less than 20 or 25% from front

 

Only guessing but atm your port is probably 66 to 75% distance from front of cylinder on 360 ish barrel

And would be OK for a 300 but maybe not quite matched

if you chucked a 230-250 barrel

 

Soz to everybody keep chiming in

Must get sick of me waffling

(I know I would)

[sp00n]

Even a mp5k can't be that close to the front of box.

 

99.9% certain they put it in back to front,

Mp5k 120mm would have port about 33%

That is like less than 20 or 25% from front

 

Only guessing but atm your port is probably 66 to 75% distance from front of cylinder on 360 ish barrel

And would be OK for a 300 but maybe not quite matched

if you chucked a 230-250 barrel

 

Soz to everybody keep chiming in

Must get sick of me waffling

(I know I would)

 

really crappy pic of my CM16 cylinder

 

 

and one with measurements:-

 

 

Edit :-

 

i dont it keeps discussions alive

[Cheeky vimto]

Thanks for the offer mate

 

i am doing my upgrade "sequentially" (well thats what my mind thinks), i am sticking with the standard 18:1 gears, and a 7.4v lipo at first. then as i get board i can go down the 13:1 gears, swiss cheese piston, delay chips and 11.1v lipo etc etc.

 

That lonex a1 motor is a bit of a beast, i have the A2, as i didn't want to send my gun back to the future the rate the A1 spins at

Lonex motors are monsters. The A1+ has the same speed of the A1 but has more torque so quicker response.

 

[Sitting Duck]

Wow 35/36mm port.

Not being funny but that port should perhaps be a bit further back if your inner barrel is 357/363

approx 2/3rds or 3/4....

 

I'm no techy guru but if you look at cylinders with port

a bit further back they will say is for 360 barrels

Plus there are numerous charts to compare/look at

 

The point end bit, at say 35mm should be OK to use

with a shorter barrel - really seems like they used

Same cylinder port position for shorter 233/275 & your 357 gun

 

Anyway it don't matter atm - getting box sorted first

But does seem like cylinder is for maybe better

suited for a 233mm CM coz think the port should be

Approx 10mm further back if my $hite maths kinda works

 

Or Google up a M4A1 gearbox pic that should have say a 363 barrel on the gun approx, and see just how much further back the cylinder port is on most of them

 

Google some cylinder charts in case anybody thinks I'm talking ultra bollox again

[sp00n]

Yeah mine is the Raider L the 357

 

I dunno they maybe didnt have the correct port or just just used a "standard box"

[Sitting Duck]

Normally is more common to see makers "over" volume

Then with so so seals in cylinder/piston/nozzle it kinda still works out ok ish.

 

Anyway don't matter too much atm, get box done

Then you can try a shorter barrel much later on.

But feel it might actually perform a bit better with

a shorter and better suited/matched barrel to port

 

 

Ignore my bollox - we can find out this at a later stage

[sp00n]

more bad news for me (sorry the pics arnt much better)

 

firstly the spur gear, if you look at the below pic, there is a strange overhang on all the teeth, if you look where the tapered part to the tooth face is you can see it. admittedly the other teeth don't look too healthy either.

 

 

Nextley and probably a show stopper, if you look at the red circles blow, there is some sort of casting "pip" which is preventing the bushing from siting all the way home, and this bush can freely rotate, other holes are better though, but this is on the spur gear.

 

 

i have tried to reassemble it, and shimmed it, but there is a bad noise when some portions of teeth mesh up.

 

if i am honest i am really disheartened, as when i initially took it apart, it didnt look that dad at all .... /sigh

 

EDIT :-

 

20mins later i attacked the gearbox shell with my leather-man and cut away the "pip"'s checked out all the other bushing mounts and made good etc etc, but it seems i will have to glue the bushing in as the bevel gear hole is loose ... and would you believe it my superglue has dried up *#$'

[Sitting Duck]

That is a bitch sir......

set of new SHS gears or ZCI won't be much though

(you have a chance to replace with higher speed gears but think 16:1 would be plenty with ya lonex, deans etc.....)

 

A bit unusual as they are decent gears but w@nk bushing obviously caused it all to fail

(had this happen to me at least twice on sector gear but was src and teeth width is very narrow so crossed teeth very easily on spur = CRUNCH)

 

if the glued bush/bearings don't work too well then there is still an option to replace the 8mm and CAREFULLY drill/ream/file

the holes for 9mm bearings - though you would need to be very careful and need a little time/workshop probably pillar drill

probably 8 to 8.5mm drill - no bigger ffs and with round file carefully reach the 8.99 to 9.00mm diameter hole

(all drills seem to create slightly slightly bigger holes that drill used so a 5/16 or 8mm might be max readily available size

so rounded taper file might have to be used to increase radius by under 0.5mm - or diamter by less than 1mm if she all loose atm)

but that is a last fallback option before buying a new shell

 

hopefully bit of file/sanding off the pips and bushing should glue in ok

[sp00n]

i have a cunning plan, that could not be more cunning if it have been thought up by a fox who had just got his cunning degree from a cunning university

 

my plan .... "check the box where i put airsoft stuff that i have bought"

 

result :-

 

 

so have glued bushing in place, and have sorted shimming out already

 

To Do:-

1)soldering wires for fet/trigger/motor etc

2)reassemble gearbox and grease up!

3)testing

4)reassemble gun

5)stuff

[Sitting Duck]

nice one

 

go easy on juice - probably 7.4v with 25c is gonna achieve 25 aprox - plenty for most

maybe more with those gears/deans etc even if lonex is more torque than speed motor

(ya ratio is nearly 40% increase in rof over 18:1 so in theory a 14.5rof becomes 20 with stock motor setup & 8.4v/9.6v old school nimah)

add in deans wire and neodym motor and it goes up even higher

 

fine for up to 30 but above that she may double fire unless AB fet fitted (which you have anyway)

Actually with that gear set you will maybe need an AB fet anyway coz it takes only 4.4 turns of bevel to cycle sector

compared to 6.25 bevel rotations to turn sector gear one complete revolution - so has less time/turns to stop

(even on a beefy "f*ck me that is bitch to turn over by hand" neodym motor)

Good job ya got the Pico AAB then coz with a non-AB fet there is a chance of double firing perhaps @25rps with 13:1 me thinks

(yes you should keep AR latch in box coz though AB fet brakes motor it don't lock motor like a stepper motor)

 

Also above 35+ rof you "could" get Pre-Engagement on normal m100/350fps setup

(So be a little cautious perhaps if you are thinking of going nutz and trying an 11.1v - if she is hitting 25+ already on a 7.4v)

 

Should perform da dogz nutz on 7.4v - soz for waffly warning or caution on trying to push her on much higher juice

(be interesting to see if my maths bollox is way out but think the shs figures are likely to be with a 11.1v lipo myself)

I gotta get around to modding & downgrading the bi-8001 and might use a hi-speed set I have and a modest but torquey motor

(shs 12:1 & slow/stock speed but powerful Big Dragon m140 motor - m160 is a more mental motor in speed & beef btw)

 

Oh and for what it is worth....

 

G&G are gonna be launching the the Dual Sector Gear version of the Fire Hawk next month so LWA say on FB

 

29rps on a DSG !!!! - why bother ffs & fps could be a bit lower depending on model/spring - jeez

 

depending on ya wire used and space left to squeeze in the box "grooves" - you have the option of running

either 1 or 2 trigger/fet wires externally on right side of box in 22/24awg & back to fet if space is getting tight

with thicker 16awg wire. 16awg turnigy silicone is about 3mm in diameter, modify silver wire is a little thinner

(not so flexible insulation but much thinner/stronger and so a little more room inside v2 boxes)

[sp00n]

Yeah I am putting my 11.1v lipo idea on hold atm. Going to use my 7.4's might have a minor issue with there discharge rate 35 to 50c eeek

That dsg Fire hawk looks nice, swap the motor out for say a lonex a1, easy 50+rps!!!

As for my wires I have 16awg silvered silicone wiring for the motor, and the included wire for the pico AAB fet

[sp00n]

balls

 

so i found out that the 16awg is too thick to fit, so plan B use the existing wires ... all was going well until i had to feed the wire into the buffer tube .. the wires on my fet are too short to connect as per original, and if i have the fet on the other side, there is no room for the fet.

 

plan ....errr c ... try thinner 16awg wire

 

EDIT :- have just ordered a pack of ASG Ultimate silver plated Wire ... need to stop spending money now!

[TheGrover]

 

 

need to stop spending money now!

 

nah, spending money is good! what kind of airsofter are you... i bet youre the kind of guy who can visit an airsoft shop and leave without a new pistol arent you?

[sp00n]

 

nah, spending money is good! what kind of airsofter are you... i bet youre the kind of guy who can visit an airsoft shop and leave without a new pistol arent you?

 

only when i already have the pistols they stock ..... still waiting for my local to get a webby in!!!!

[sp00n]

Joy and sorrow in one foul swoop

 

so i finally received the ASG ultimate silver coated wire, and promptly re wired my gun .

 

i was having a bit of trouble reassembling my gun (the norm i am learning for V2 gearboxes!), and i had been given the normal raider out barrel and inner barrel , so i promptly swapped them over to boot.

 

wiring finished, all back together ... to to do a FPS and bb per sec test .... the good news is it spitting out a nice 27 to 28 bb per second

 

... the bad news is my compression has ran away! i am only getting 169 to 200 fps ...... WTF

 

going down the list of things that i have done which may have had a negative impact on the air seal, other then replace the piston o-ring, i did fit a sector delay chip ...... getting fed up with whipping the gear box out lol

 

edit :- forgot to mention, even when i went back to my original barrel/hop assembly, the FPS was not much better around 10 to 20 fps.

 

i did the paper test. (Flip the gun upside down. Put a small piece of paper or tissue on the magwell hole. Dry fire the gun. If the paper blows up at your face, your leak is most likely between the nozzle/hop up assembly) .. paper didn't move

 

time to swap back the piston 0-ring

[sp00n]

had it apart again

 

air seal is almost perfect

 

removed sector delay chip .....

 

and now i am getting 267fps ... which is nice (this works out to 300fps on 0.2's) which is what i was getting before.

 

i also performed some test swapping to the shorter barrel i gained approximatly 10 to 20 FPS

 

the bad news in full auto, removing the sector delay chip has made it miss feeds a lot ... but my local site is semi only so not too much of a issue atm.

 

so the big question do i get a sp110 spring and go for a 330fps gun ..... atm .... NO