very confused about sale of RIF's in a shop in cambridge?

[CaptainSwoop]

-

 

***ATTENTION BANK ROBBERS AND CHILDREN ***

 

DON'T POINT YOUR PRETEND GUNS AT PEOPLE IN THE STREET OR PEOPLE WITH REAL GUNS AND TOO MUCH HAIR PRODUCT WILL COME AND ARREST/SHOOT YOU

 

******** END OF MESSAGE ********

 

Will that stop anyone? Do Bank Robbers read your posts?

[CaptainSwoop]

As for an Air Pistol being a RIF.

 

Air Pistols are covered by different legislation. If a pistol is an Air Weapon it can't be a RIF as it isn't a replica or an imitation firearm, it's an Air Pistol .

There is no restriction on the appearance of an Air Weapon, only on the power.

[CES_williamson]

As for an Air Pistol being a RIF.

 

Air Pistols are covered by different legislation. If a pistol is an Air Weapon it can't be a RIF as it isn't a replica or an imitation firearm, it's an Air Pistol .

There is no restriction on the appearance of an Air Weapon, only on the power.

 

they wernt airsoft guns, all air pistols and air rifles where behind the counter/ on the walls none where on view or easily accessible like the airsoft guns where.

[Deek]

As for an Air Pistol being a RIF.

 

Air Pistols are covered by different legislation. If a pistol is an Air Weapon it can't be a RIF as it isn't a replica or an imitation firearm, it's an Air Pistol .

There is no restriction on the appearance of an Air Weapon, only on the power.

 

Depends on how you read the law and how it is interpreted and any test cases that exist.

 

That said, the VCRA is very clear on what constitutes an imitation firearm and what constitutes a realistic imitation firearm;

 

VCRA 2006, Sec 38(1) defines a "realistic imitation firearm" as:

( a ) has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical purposes, from a real firearm; and

( b ) is neither a de-activated firearm nor itself an antique

 

"Imitation firearm" is discussed in Sec38(2) and (3) as below:

 

(2)For the purposes of this section, an imitation firearm is not (except by virtue of subsection (3)( b ) to be regarded as distinguishable from a real firearm for any practical purpose if it could be so distinguished only—

(a)by an expert;

(b)on a close examination; or

©as a result of an attempt to load or to fire it.

(3)In determining for the purposes of this section whether an imitation firearm is distinguishable from a real firearm—

(a)the matters that must be taken into account include any differences between the size, shape and principal colour of the imitation firearm and the size, shape and colour in which the real firearm is manufactured; and

(b)the imitation is to be regarded as distinguishable if its size, shape or principal colour is unrealistic for a real firearm.

 

Air pistols may be covered under different legislation but if it can be proved that an air pistol falls under the above criteria it could be argued that it is, by definition, a realistic imitation firearm. For example, the air pistols on this page ( http://www.wonderlandmodels.com/bb-air-guns/air-guns/pistols/umarex/walther/ ) do they fit the definition of a RIF under the VCRA Sec 38(1) (a) and ( b )? I would argue yes they do, as they has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical purposes, from a real firearm and they are neither a de-activated firearm nor antiques.

 

The law has many areas that overlap and at times appear to contradict each other, and it is all down to interpretation and knowledge of all the relevant aspects of the law.

 

A retailer like the one discussed might view airsoft weapons as 'toys' and may not be aware of the VCRA or even the Firearms Act (although not having knowledge of the law is no defence if an offence has been committed)

 

(PS - I am not an expert on the law... just find the twists and turns quite interesting )

[Albiscuit]

Its all such a grey area, the more I look into it and read up the more confused I get.

 

They way I see it, I own 2 RIFs and no UKARA membership just yet (working on it) BUT, I only ever take them out with 2 guys who do have a UKARA and on my way to a skirmish, I would never show them off, take them out or even use them in my garden due to the fact I do not want armed cops jumping on me mistaking me for a terrorist.

As far as I am concerned I am breaking no laws, hurting no one, scaring no one therefore as long as I am responsible I expect everyone else in this sport to be so too to help maintain a good reputation for Airsoft.

[NH Shooter]

Its all such a grey area, the more I look into it and read up the more confused I get.

 

They way I see it, I own 2 RIFs and no UKARA membership just yet (working on it) BUT, I only ever take them out with 2 guys who do have a UKARA and on my way to a skirmish, I would never show them off, take them out or even use them in my garden due to the fact I do not want armed cops jumping on me mistaking me for a terrorist.

As far as I am concerned I am breaking no laws, hurting no one, scaring no one therefore as long as I am responsible I expect everyone else in this sport to be so too to help maintain a good reputation for Airsoft.

And... There's no laws around the ownership, as long as your old enough. Also not illegal to buy them without ukara... Only sell them... It's a throughly useless thing.

[Deek]

And... There's no laws around the ownership, as long as your old enough. Also not illegal to buy them without ukara... Only sell them... It's a throughly useless thing.

 

Well, as long as the RIF was acquired in the right manner there should be no need for laws on ownership. And don't forget, you don't actually need UKARA to sell an item, but the retailer must ensure that the person purchasing the item has a valid defence, and UJARA is an easy way for a retailer to do this.

 

This is a well used theme in other laws such as alcohol and tobacco, with the view that the person shouldn't be made a criminal but will stop the supply of prohibited items. For example, it is not illegal for a person under the age of 16 to have on their person tobacco yet it is an offence to sell tobacco to a person under the age of 16 (Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Act 1991).

 

Just because there appears to be no action on something doesn't automatically make it useless; yes on the face of it it may appear useless but it has actually stopped a lot of problems, especially when you look at the events that led up to the VCRA being introduced.

[straffham]

The only way airsoft could be banned would be to make OWNERSHIP illegal, let alone selling of rifs. Its unlikely to happen but that's not to say it couldn't if govt of the day was of a mind, which currently isn't the case.

[Deek]

The only way airsoft could be banned would be to make OWNERSHIP illegal, let alone selling of rifs. Its unlikely to happen but that's not to say it couldn't if govt of the day was of a mind, which currently isn't the case.

 

Not really... If you ban the sale and import of RIFs then people would not legally be able to acquire them. The legislation is already in place regarding having RIFs in a public place, so the only place you would be able to have an RIF is private property where the public have no access.

 

That said if we take collective responsibility for the sport, including safety and following the law, there would be no reason for it to be banned, especially given the Home Office has issued the "The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Commencement No 3) Order 2007: firearms measures" covering the defence for airsofters

[NH Shooter]

That's the thing deek... Someone has a rif...

 

They could have been given it

They could have owned it before the act

They could have brought it without any defence, from a shop or privately

They could have made it

They could have painted it from an I.F

They could have brought it legally from a shop or privately

 

There's absolutely no way of ever knowing... Makes a shambles of the entire thing. First time I showed up with a rif, I was told I was breaking the law by owning one without a licence... By "experienced" people... It's mental :-)

[Deek]

That's the thing deek... Someone has a rif...

 

They could have been given it

They could have owned it before the act

They could have brought it without any defence, from a shop or privately

They could have made it

They could have painted it from an I.F

They could have brought it legally from a shop or privately

 

There's absolutely no way of ever knowing... Makes a shambles of the entire thing. First time I showed up with a rif, I was told I was breaking the law by owning one without a licence... By "experienced" people... It's mental :-)

 

I know, it is really crazy how the British legal system works (or sometimes doesn't!) and how some people interpret the law... and as I have said it relies on the people in authority knowing the law as well...

[Albiscuit]

My Mrs is paranoid with me having RIFs in the house, and the kids knowing about them. I have tried showing her and telling her its totally fine but shes properly anxious we will get raided and arrested

[straffham]

 

Not really... If you ban the sale and import of RIFs then people would not legally be able to acquire them. The legislation is already in place regarding having RIFs in a public place, so the only place you would be able to have an RIF is private property where the public have no access.

 

Banning sale or import would only prevent future buying / selling and wouldn't affect the hundreds of thousands of airsoft guns, ifs and rifs out there already. My point was aimed at the earlier post regarding worries airsoft could get banned at some point, that AFAIK the only way this would be possible would be to make ownership (or otherwise "being in possession of") airsoft guns illegal, which would largely kill the sport even if sites could continue with hire guns, as most of us like to own and use our own. Heaven forbid that should ever happen!

[Deek]

Banning sale or import would only prevent future buying / selling and wouldn't affect the hundreds of thousands of airsoft guns, ifs and rifs out there already. My point was aimed at the earlier post regarding worries airsoft could get banned at some point, that AFAIK the only way this would be possible would be to make ownership (or otherwise "being in possession of") airsoft guns illegal, which would largely kill the sport even if sites could continue with hire guns, as most of us like to own and use our own. Heaven forbid that should ever happen!

 

Ah, I see what you mean...

 

The worry of the complete ban and the loss of airsoft was very real when the VCR Bill was first discussed, especially when airsoft was very fragmented, there were some very dodgy sites and things got very unpleasant between 'airsofters'.

 

Thankfully now sites are better organised and players have a better attitude towards safety and the law

[ikarma70]

where does it say you need to be UkARA registered to be an airsoft retailer seeing as UkARA is a voluntary organisation?

[Mr Monkey Nuts]

Nowhere, although if you are a legitimate retailer, there is no reason you shouldn't be.

[CaptainSwoop]

 

Depends on how you read the law and how it is interpreted and any test cases that exist.

 

That said, the VCRA is very clear on what constitutes an imitation firearm and what constitutes a realistic imitation firearm;

 

VCRA 2006, Sec 38(1) defines a "realistic imitation firearm" as:

( a ) has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical purposes, from a real firearm; and

( b ) is neither a de-activated firearm nor itself an antique

 

"Imitation firearm" is discussed in Sec38(2) and (3) as below:

 

(2)For the purposes of this section, an imitation firearm is not (except by virtue of subsection (3)( b ) to be regarded as distinguishable from a real firearm for any practical purpose if it could be so distinguished only—

(a)by an expert;

(b)on a close examination; or

©as a result of an attempt to load or to fire it.

(3)In determining for the purposes of this section whether an imitation firearm is distinguishable from a real firearm—

(a)the matters that must be taken into account include any differences between the size, shape and principal colour of the imitation firearm and the size, shape and colour in which the real firearm is manufactured; and

(b)the imitation is to be regarded as distinguishable if its size, shape or principal colour is unrealistic for a real firearm.

 

Air pistols may be covered under different legislation but if it can be proved that an air pistol falls under the above criteria it could be argued that it is, by definition, a realistic imitation firearm. For example, the air pistols on this page ( http://www.wonderlandmodels.com/bb-air-guns/air-guns/pistols/umarex/walther/ ) do they fit the definition of a RIF under the VCRA Sec 38(1) (a) and ( b )? I would argue yes they do, as they has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical purposes, from a real firearm and they are neither a de-activated firearm nor antiques.

 

The law has many areas that overlap and at times appear to contradict each other, and it is all down to interpretation and knowledge of all the relevant aspects of the law.

 

A retailer like the one discussed might view airsoft weapons as 'toys' and may not be aware of the VCRA or even the Firearms Act (although not having knowledge of the law is no defence if an offence has been committed)

 

(PS - I am not an expert on the law... just find the twists and turns quite interesting )

 

Air Pistols are not Realistic Imitation Firearms. They re covered by the Firearms Act and are considered to be Firearms. They cannot be imitations.

[ikarma70]

I'm wondering what the financial costs are to be UkARA registered ?

[Deek]

From how I read it an air weapon isn't classed as a firearm under the Firearms Act 1968;

 

The CPS have an interesting document regarding definitions: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/ - according to the CPS an air weapon is not a firearm.

 

Again, I think it is down to the interpretation of the various parts of the law.

 

For instance, Thames Valley Police have issued a document through the multi-agency group StayWise ( www.staywise.co.uk ) called "Worlds Collide" ( http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/worlds-collide-pack.pdf ) where on the last page they consider anything that falls under the definition of an RIF will be classed as an RIF;

 

[quoteThe Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 introduces the term 'a realistic imitation firearm'. It defines this as

'an imitation firearm whose appearance is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical

purposes, from a firearm of an existing make or model...’ This means that if you can only tell it is a replica

firearm by examining it closely, attempting to load or fire it or asking an expert then it is a realistic imitation

firearm.

So, anything that looks like a real firearm will no longer be legally sold, imported or manufactured. It does

not matter whether the gun fires a pellet, a capsule of paint, a ball bearing or nothing at all. If a court finds

that a BB gun or air pistol looks like a realistic firearm then it may not be manufactured, bought or sold.

This is the problem airsofters, paintballers, and air weapons shooters face with the law with the items we use for our hobby / sport, and would probably only really be settled by a Judge in a Court of Law, which would be dark day for any hobby / sport.